Kurt Warner: Kevin Kolb will start, but he needs to learn the offense

[Darkside]

So Skelton plays defense, as well?

That's how we averaged allowing 10 ppg less over the last 9 games while scoring 1.5 ppg less.

Seriously, when is Ray Horton and the defense going to get the credit they deserve for shutting teams down the second half of the season? If I were the type who liked to divide and give credit based on their contributions, I'd give 75% of it to the defense, 15% to special teams (blocked FGs and PP21 TDs) and 10% to the offense. That's how irrelevant I think the offense was in the about face of the entire team.

Regardless of who the quarterback is, we are 8-8 to end 2011. This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

Great post. I like your breakdown of percentages of who gets the victories. You may even be light in your 15% given to special teams. I doubt the offense even gets 10%, if you include all the turnovers. We had something like 20+ interceptions. Almost 2 a game. We're almost giving up points when we do that, especially early in the year when our defense was confused.

Our offense was worse than irrelevant, it almost became a detriment at times with the turnovers.

Nice post.

 

[perivolaki]

Kolb has been in the league for 5+ years, yet he couldn't digest a playbook better/faster than Newton or Dalton? Something tells me he can't adjust to any other offense besides the Spread/WCO.

After hearing the Cards new quarterback coach speak several times about the lack of on off season with Kolb and that it hindered the Cardinals in tailoring their offense to what he does best.

He has made it known that he thinks the Cardinals can do a better job of making the offense fit Kolb's skills.

I know I've heard him say several times that Kurt Warner no longer plays here so it's time to quit doing the things that Kurt does well and fit the offense to what the quarterbacks we have do well.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Good gracious. Seven rushers and four back, at least two of whom were doubling Fitz.

Six in to block, and there's a jailbreak on Kolb after three seconds. To be fair, Kolb isn't "running around" in the sense that--say--Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers move in the pocket. He ran straight backward, which worked out because there was nothing to step up into.

2 RB 2TE 1 WR. Love that formation.

Brutal blocking job there, yeah it was bad. Kolb made that play by running backwards, one of the few times it actually worked last year.

That was also the play that ended Jon Beason's season...

 

[Phrazbit]

So Skelton plays defense, as well?

That's how we averaged allowing 10 ppg less over the last 9 games while scoring 1.5 ppg less.

Seriously, when is Ray Horton and the defense going to get the credit they deserve for shutting teams down the second half of the season? If I were the type who liked to divide and give credit based on their contributions, I'd give 75% of it to the defense, 15% to special teams (blocked FGs and PP21 TDs) and 10% to the offense. That's how irrelevant I think the offense was in the about face of the entire team.

Regardless of who the quarterback is, we are 8-8 to end 2011. This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

Yeah, because the offense was gangbusters with Kolb out there... especially with the game on the line.

 

[Duckjake]

So Skelton plays defense, as well?

That's how we averaged allowing 10 ppg less over the last 9 games while scoring 1.5 ppg less.

Seriously, when is Ray Horton and the defense going to get the credit they deserve for shutting teams down the second half of the season? If I were the type who liked to divide and give credit based on their contributions, I'd give 75% of it to the defense, 15% to special teams (blocked FGs and PP21 TDs) and 10% to the offense. That's how irrelevant I think the offense was in the about face of the entire team.

Regardless of who the quarterback is, we are 8-8 to end 2011. This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

The Defense scored zero points. They had zero shutouts last season. So if the offense was irrelevant how did we win?

We've beat this to death. Multiple 70 yard scoring drives to win or tie late in games is not irrelevant.

 

[Stout]

Give me a call when John Skelton can post better than a 70 QB Rating. Thanks!

Give me a call when Kolb wins games like Skelton...thanks!

Yeah, because the offense was gangbusters with Kolb out there... especially with the game on the line.

Ding ding!

The Defense scored zero points. They had zero shutouts last season. So if the offense was irrelevant how did we win?

We've beat this to death. Multiple 70 yard scoring drives to win or tie late in games is not irrelevant.

Ding ding!

Look, Kolb sucked pretty bad, and had huge negatives...and lost. Skelton had some huge negatives as well, but as a small-school kid was able to show poise in the pocket and step up in the pocket to make plays. Kolb didn't show those attributes. Skelton also won, a lot, and despite what haters like to write, he was a major, key component in those wins. Hate all you like, but that is the simple truth. Skelton supporters hope a small school kid with almost no developmental time can put it together with the proper coaching, because the supposed veteran ace Kolb put hardly anything together in the short time he had.

If Kolb struggles again, he needs to go, because he is all out of excuses. Rookie QBs were able to pick up their offenses and Kolb was not. And I don't want to hear that whining about the rookies getting their playbooks earlier. So what? So a completely raw rookie gets a playbook, but has absolutely no coaching with it whatsoever, and that's supposed to be some huge advantage over a veteran, supposedly ready-to-win QB getting his playbook at TC? Not buying it. Not buying it at all. Dalton and Newton absolutely embarrassed Kolb last season.

 

[vinnymac]

I really don't care who the qb is. So as long as the Cardinals win. Advantage Skelton because he has been in the system longer than Kolb. Skeleton is going on his 3rd year as a Cardinal Qb. He has the Same coaches and same players around him. The person with no excuses is Skelton.

 

[kerouac9]

I don't understand why people are getting fired up to support either Kolb or Skelton. Neither is clearly better than the other, and neither are likely to be a long-term solution to the quarterback problem. The only reasons I can see for standing with Skelton is because you like the style of football that he plays and that he has some more marginal promise than Kolb.

Kolb's been the #1 or #2 QB for NFL teams for five seasons, and has gotten the bulk of the position coaching for all of them.

Skelton's been the #4 or #3 QB for the bulk of his two NFL seasons, including one where he was ignored by the coaching staff until he was forced into a starting role, and another when a lockout prevented him from working with the staff until late July, and then he injured his foot for five or six weeks. He started the 2011 season behind Richard Bartel on the depth chart!

I just don't see how people think that Kevin Kolb healthy and playing well makes a difference of more than a game or so. He hasn't shown an ability to win games even when he's being productive. Kolb got worse last year when the pressure was on. He was worse on second and third down than he was on first, when he took a ton of sacks.

Football Outsiders places Kevin Kolb's decline to the interception he threw at the end of the half against the Seahawks. After that he was never the same guy. He was an adequate starter before that play, and a cautionary tale about paying for small sample size afterward.

People are over-crediting the defense for the late-season surge. As I've said elsewhere, the defense held 2 teams below their season scoring average in the second half of the season--San Francisco and Dallas. Raise the roof. We couldn't hold St. Louis, Cleveland, or Seattle below their season scoring averages... At home.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

People are over-crediting the defense for the late-season surge. As I've said elsewhere, the defense held 2 teams below their season scoring average in the second half of the season--San Francisco and Dallas. Raise the roof. We couldn't hold St. Louis, Cleveland, or Seattle below their season scoring averages... At home.

You are confusing two different pieces here. There is NO argument that the defense was the reason for the "late season surge" last year. Anyone arguing otherwise didn't watch the Cardinals last year.

Your theory that the defensive success was a mirage and won't carry over into this year (which you have made clear ad nauseum) once we play better offenses is a different point all together.

Listen all the fan boys who want to support Skelton because he "won" and not give fair credit to the fact the defense started to get it last 9 games (I mean Jesus how many Urban and Somers articles on that very fact do you have to read before you realize it was like two different units for Kolb and Skeleton essentially?) - more power to you.

I'm not saying you are unequivocally wrong and that Kolb is far superior. There are things outside of Skeletons record last year that should give Cards fans optimism about the guy. But to push aside the defensive improvement and say well Skelton "wins" and for that reason will be the guy going forward?

Well you are like the blinded simple minded Tebow fans that all us diehards laugh at.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Give me a call when John Skelton can post better than a 70 QB Rating. Thanks!

Seriously though, Kevin Kolb did run around and make a few plays, but not frequently enough or we would've been better obviously. The play that jumps out to me would be King's long TD in the Panthers game. That was a play made by Kolb buying time and the Panthers completely selling out on the blitz.

Give me a call back when Kolb comes thru in the clutch. Thanks!

We CAN take the gloves off.

Funny my horse in this race doesn't need 600 pages of excuses why he can't win a football game.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

A great TD pass to Fitz in the end zone of the first Seattle game IIRC too after being flushed. Threw off back foot into end zone.

Lost that game.

 

[TJ]

Give me a call when Kolb wins games like Skelton...thanks!

My earlier post already took care of this false notion.

Ray Horton is still pulling out his cornrows in rage after reading this thread.

Look, Kolb sucked pretty bad, and had huge negatives...and lost. Skelton had some huge negatives as well, but as a small-school kid was able to show poise in the pocket and step up in the pocket to make plays. Kolb didn't show those attributes. Skelton also won, a lot, and despite what haters like to write, he was a major, key component in those wins.

If he was such an efficient quarterback last season, why wasn't John Skelton given pro bowl consideration over Cam Newton, who had a far worse W:L ratio?

Hate all you like, but that is the simple truth. Skelton supporters hope a small school kid with almost no developmental time can put it together with the proper coaching, because the supposed veteran ace Kolb put hardly anything together in the short time he had

The bold pretty much sums up what Kurt Warner, Adam Schefter, Rich Gannon, and many other analysts have been saying the entire offseason.

If Kolb struggles again, he needs to go, because he is all out of excuses.

I don't disagree here

Rookie QBs were able to pick up their offenses and Kolb was not. And I don't want to hear that whining about the rookies getting their playbooks earlier. So what? So a completely raw rookie gets a playbook, but has absolutely no coaching with it whatsoever

When did Kolb get coaching with the Whisenhunt playbook?

and that's supposed to be some huge advantage over a veteran, supposedly ready-to-win QB getting his playbook at TC? Not buying it. Not buying it at all. Dalton and Newton absolutely embarrassed Kolb last season.

Newton/Dalton v. Kolb comparisons are irrelevant.

Have you ever digested an offensive playbook at any level of football?

Professional playbooks are as long as 400 pages long. I can't speak for how long Whiz's playbook is, but many have spoken about the complexity of it. There is a significant difference between beginning to learn a new offense in April with the benefit of at least practicing it with teammates versus being issued one in August and expecting to completely understand it by Week 1. There are no Sparks Notes version of play books. I'll argue that Whiz should have pared it down for Kolb and gradually implemented it.

Even the defense had to tear out 70% of theirs because the players were overwhelmed. Look what it did for them the 2nd half of the season, which happens to be the main reason why we had a major turnaround in the 2nd half.

 

[TJ]

Give me a call back when Kolb comes thru in the clutch. Thanks!

.

Dallas in the entire 2nd half and OT

 

[RugbyMuffin]

2 RB 2TE 1 WR. Love that formation.

+1.

Modern day run and shoot with TE's. New England has been running it for years, and IIRC they have been a pretty good football team for the last decade.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Dallas in the entire 2nd half and OT

Gotcha. So one game counts.

Ring, Ring, uh Kraing are you there, yes ? OK

http://www.footballdb.com/boxscore/2011121112

Done.

106.5 rating versus the best team in our division

But, don't worry Kolb will start this year, and then prove how poor of a QB he is, much to my disappointment cause I just want this team to win, regardless of the QB in the huddle. I would much rather be wrong, and watch the team I root for succeed then to be right on some trivial sports debate.

But for the sake of the debate, as you know, Double Deuce is my horse in the race.

 

[kerouac9]

You are confusing two different pieces here. There is NO argument that the defense was the reason for the "late season surge" last year. Anyone arguing otherwise didn't watch the Cardinals last year.

Your theory that the defensive success was a mirage and won't carry over into this year (which you have made clear ad nauseum) once we play better offenses is a different point all together.

Listen all the fan boys who want to support Skelton because he "won" and not give fair credit to the fact the defense started to get it last 9 games (I mean Jesus how many Urban and Somers articles on that very fact do you have to read before you realize it was like two different units for Kolb and Skeleton essentially?) - more power to you.

I'm not saying you are unequivocally wrong and that Kolb is far superior. There are things outside of Skeletons record last year that should give Cards fans optimism about the guy. But to push aside the defensive improvement and say well Skelton "wins" and for that reason will be the guy going forward?

Well you are like the blinded simple minded Tebow fans that all us diehards laugh at.

Where am I saying these things? My point about the QBs is made in the third point of this thread. No one should be confusing either with adequate starting quarterbacks right now. I think that only one of them has the potential to be an adquate starting quarterback, and that guy isn't the fifth-year veteran on his third NFL contract. Here's a hint: It's the guy that's going to earn $75K less than Richard Bartel this year.

To use TJ's analysis, the 7-2 record to end the year should be credited to:

35% - The schedule-maker for giving us an especially toothless slate of opponents in the last half of the year.

30% - The defense for getting out of their own way enough to play to a league-average level.

20% - Patrick Peterson for being our most dynamic scoring threat and flipping field position.

15% - John Skelton's keeping the game within reach until late in the 4th quarter.

Kolb's shown that he can't hang against the better teams in the NFL--both in Philly and now here. Skelton's shown that he can barely hang on to a starting job with little faith, development, or support from the coaching staff.

Tyler Wilson 2013.

 

[TJ]

+1.

Modern day run and shoot with TE's. New England has been running it for years, and IIRC they have been a pretty good football team for the last decade.

When you have Gronkowski and Hernandez, you can run 2 TE formation all day long and reek havoc on linebackers and DBs.

 

[Phrazbit]

Its funny how many lean on Kolb's preformance for a half against Dallas to show how his potential, when that was as "Skeltonesque" as he could have been. He played like garbage in the first half... but the defense kept the Cards in it, then he put together a few decent drives (but still needed a huge stroke of luck to get to OT)... then won the game on a screen pass.

If everything in that game had worked out the exact same but the QB's names were swapped then the Kolb homers would lay that as one more lousy game by Skelton that the D bailed him out in.

 

[Krangodnzr]

You are confusing two different pieces here. There is NO argument that the defense was the reason for the "late season surge" last year. Anyone arguing otherwise didn't watch the Cardinals last year.

Your theory that the defensive success was a mirage and won't carry over into this year (which you have made clear ad nauseum) once we play better offenses is a different point all together.

Listen all the fan boys who want to support Skelton because he "won" and not give fair credit to the fact the defense started to get it last 9 games (I mean Jesus how many Urban and Somers articles on that very fact do you have to read before you realize it was like two different units for Kolb and Skeleton essentially?) - more power to you.

I'm not saying you are unequivocally wrong and that Kolb is far superior. There are things outside of Skeletons record last year that should give Cards fans optimism about the guy. But to push aside the defensive improvement and say well Skelton "wins" and for that reason will be the guy going forward?

Well you are like the blinded simple minded Tebow fans that all us diehards laugh at.

+1

Fact: John Skelton's led offense scored LESS points than Kevin Kolb's.

Fact: The defense gave up less points over the second half of the season.

 

[Snakester]

I will back which ever one wins the pre-season battle at QB, but I want it to be a fair. If Kolb outplays Skelton then fine, but if Skelton out plays Kolb then I want to see Skelton as the starter.

 

[desertdawg]

Warner has a knowlegable view on our club, and doesn't want to sound dumb later on, so it must be his true opinion. I think he could have given Skelton a bit more propolas but he was kinda dead on with Kolb IMO. Truth is someone needs to step up and get it down field (no Kolb scramble jokes por favor), neither did the shaqnasty last year but both are coming in with more time on their belts. Who ever gets the nod will have a better team on both sides of the ball compared to last year. Whiz and co do have my attention this year, been loving our drafts (yes, plural ), and I hope 2 backs and a better defense helps whomever out. New receiver could do wonders.

 

[kerouac9]

+1

Fact: John Skelton's led offense scored LESS points than Kevin Kolb's.

Fact: The defense gave up less points over the second half of the season.

FACT: John Skelton's offense saw better defenses than Kevin Kolb's.

FACT: The defense faced off against weaker offenses over the second half of the season.

You know, Cam Newton/Eli Manning/Ben Roethlisberger, or Tavaris Jackson/Colt McCoy/Andy Dalton?

 

[Duckjake]

I'll be for whoever the starter is come September but I still think Double Deuce gives us the best chance to win.

By the way the only reason Kolb improved in the second half vs Dallas is that I used the Duckjake Jinx on him at halftime. You can look it up.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

I'll be for whoever the starter is come September but I still think Double Deuce gives us the best chance to win.

Same here.

 

[desertdawg]

FACT: John Skelton's offense saw better defenses than Kevin Kolb's.

FACT: The defense faced off against weaker offenses over the second half of the season.

You know, Cam Newton/Eli Manning/Ben Roethlisberger, or Tavaris Jackson/Colt McCoy/Andy Dalton?

That's a wierd list to hang your hat on.