Kurt Warner talks about Matt Leinart's predicament

[Shane]

7-3 season ended 9-7, coinciding with the move to Hightower. Do the math and look at the attempts per game with him and the attempts without, more imprortantly the W-L. It isn't rocket science. "Saved his legs for the playoffs" wow. I mean really man.

Check Edges average before the benching and GET BACK TO ME. Hold on I'll do it for you: 3.2 then 2.7 then 3.2 then 2.4. Really tearing it up wouldn't you say? Add that a costly fumble losing us a game and missing practice unexcused.

You are being so convincing telling me that the sole reason for the record decline was benching Edge when he was terrible the previous 4 games. He is one player out of 21 others on the field.

Absolutely I believe that time off gave him fresh legs for the playoffs.

 

[Perfectionist]

The fact may be that this is what it was going to take to unite the locker room. Whis told Docket he would get a new contract and he did, Wilson got his contract last year, both buy keeping their mouths shut and focusing in on football. I agree with the poster that wondered if Fitz has anything to do with this situation.

I will not give up on Whis because of this. He has done for me and the Cardinals what
no other coach had done in my 40+ years of following this team. Funny thing, when I retired I had a lot of people who did not want to see me leave, those that were producing. The people who were not producing did not like to be held accountable and of course couldn't wait to see me leave. Could this situation have been handled different? I am not sure and until all the facts are know (if ever) I choose to stand behind the one leader that has made this team respectable.

One thing for sure our defense better have a season that has the whole league talking or it could be a very long year.

Guess I better go make a new sig and quick!

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Speaking for one's self is a much more respectable way to go.

Thanks for the tip Prudence!

 

[Big D]

Put me down as having my doubts about the almighty Whis as well. The cupboard was ANYTHING but bare when Whis got here. He did a good job of preparing the meal but as Parcells would say he didn't buy the groceries so I really can't go too overboard in heaping praise on him as some others have and do. This year is the 1st season I believe that Whis has truly put his stamp on the team personel-wise after the departure of some very key players that he again was not responsible in bringing in. He's turned over the roster and won't be handcuffed by Leinart now that he has his very own hand picked QB under center.

To me Warner's play individually had more to do with the success of the past two seasons than anything Whis did. Yes it was his decision to play him and Whizzie deserves credit there but it's not like Warner had never been a pro-bowler, world champion, SB and multiple MVP before any of us knew who the hell Ken Whisenhunt was. I thought it was Whis' plan to bring a smashmouth, Pittsburgh-west style of football when he came here? What happened to that? Oh thats right he adjusted to the talent that was already in place. Kudos for making that adjustment. Well it's year 4 now and I'm still waiting waiting for that plan to come to fruition. In my eyes Whis would have proved his salt and gained more respect by coaching up and getting something, ANYTHING out of a guy that we invested a lot of money and a top 10 pick in.

Anyway for me it comes down to Whis making a bad decision with QB situation this year in choosing Anderson over Leinart. The manner in which the whole thing has been handled makes that bad decision much worse than it probably is in all reality. HOWEVER I do have to laugh when I hear/read a lot of the Whis knob-slobbing like the man is infalible and above ever being questioned as if he showed up on our sideline fresh from the womb of the virgin Mary.

 

[Shane]

Put me down as having my doubts about the almighty Whis as well. The cupboard was ANYTHING but bare when Whis got here. He did a good job of preparing the meal but as Parcells would say he didn't buy the groceries so I really can't go too overboard in heaping praise on him as some others have and do. This year is the 1st season I believe that Whis has truly put his stamp on the team personel-wise after the departure of some very key players that he again was not responsible in bringing in. He's turned over the roster and won't be handcuffed by Leinart now that he has his very own hand picked QB under center.

To me Warner's play individually had more to do with the success of the past two seasons than anything Whis did. Yes he it was his decision to play him and Whizzie deserves credit there but it's not like Warner had never been a pro-bowler, world champion, SB and multiple MVP before any of us knew who the hell Ken Whisenhunt was. I thought it was Whis' plan to bring a smashmouth, Pittsburgh-west style of football when he came here? What happened to that? Oh thats right he adjusted to the talent that was already in place. Kudos for making that adjustment. Well it's year 4 now and I'm still waiting waiting for that plan to come to fruition. In my eyes Whis would have proved his salt and gained more respect by coaching up and getting something, ANYTHING out of a guy that we invested a lot of money and a top 10 pick in.

Anyway for me it comes down to Whis making a bad decision with QB situation this year in choosing Anderson over Leinart. The manner in which the whole thing has been handled makes that bad decision much worse than it probably is in all reality. HOWEVER I do have to laugh when I hear/read a lot of the Whis knob-slobbing like the man is infalible and above ever being questioned as if he showed up on our sideline fresh from the womb of the virgin Mary.

Those same groceries that garnered a whopping 5 wins under their previous NFL respected coach BTW.

The same Warner that was mediocre at best for teh previous 3 to 4 years and didn't turn his career around till he started playing in Ken Whisenhunt's system under his guidance.

 

[moklerman]

Thanks for the tip Prudence!

Sort of ironic that you are using a virtue as a pejorative.

 

[moklerman]

Those same groceries that garnered a whopping 5 wins under their previous NFL respected coach BTW.

The same Warner that was mediocre at best for teh previous 3 to 4 years and didn't turn his career around till he started playing in Ken Whisenhunt's system under his guidance.

Nice revisionist history. Warner adopted the glove in '06, before Whisenhunt, and it had immediate positive results. Whis' offensive system was, and is to a large extent, crapola. At most it was a combination of what Warner wanted tempered by Whis and Haley.

Warner certainly had his problems after years of trying to play with a debilitated thumb but once he put on the gloves, his fumbling was cut by over a 1/3, back to what he was doing in his GSOT days.

Whis deserves credit for giving Warner a chance to start but that was a symbiotic relationship to be sure. Let's not give Whis too much credit where it isn't deserved.

 

[Big D]

Those same groceries that garnered a whopping 5 wins under their previous NFL respected coach BTW.

The same Warner that was mediocre at best for teh previous 3 to 4 years and didn't turn his career around till he started playing in Ken Whisenhunt's system under his guidance.

Ok so he took a 5 win team with a core consisting of the likes of Fitz, Boldin, Wilson, Dockett, Dansby, Rolle, Berry, Hayes, Lutui, Okeafor, ect that everyone in the world (including most of the very same media folks that are now siding with Whis in ths Leinart saga) picked to be a playoff team basically every season the 2 or 3 years prior to Whis getting here and finally got them to play up to their potential. He did his job and I give him credit for that. However I'll be far more impressed if he does the same with a roster full of guys he actually brought in and a QB he hand picked.

And again I would have been much more impressed by him coaching up and actually developing a young, unproven top 10 pick than him "turning around" the career of a guy that had already been to multilpe pro-bowls, won a world championship as MVP of the SB as well as multiple league MVPs before Whis was ever a glimmer in any Cards fan's eye.

 

[AzStevenCal]

HOWEVER I do have to laugh when I hear/read a lot of the Whis knob-slobbing like the man is infalible and above ever being questioned as if he showed up on our sideline fresh from the womb of the virgin Mary.

I don't suppose you could point me to one of those posts you're referring to. I really can't remember a post where someone seriously said that our coach is infallible and above ever being questioned.

My perspective, biased as it surely is, is that you have people on one side condemning Whiz because they are sure they know what is going on and then you have people on the other side saying maybe there's more to the story and until/unless we have all the facts we're not ready to burn Whiz at the stake just yet.

I do not like the way this has all come down regarding Leinart. From the outside looking in it seems to me this could and should have been handled differently. I'm not really sure who is to blame and Whisenhunt may well be the one most responsible. But that's where I draw the line. I don't go across it and scream and yell about how the man is an egotist that can't get beyond his own personal hatred for a player. I don't accuse him of "treating someone like a punk" everytime some player (or even fan) calls foul.

I see no problem with second guessing this coach and I see no problem with questioning any of his decisions. I've seen a few people do those very things and for the most part they led to reasonable exchanges between fans that held differing views. But I've also seen several people go well beyond that recently and when they attack Whisenhunt's character rather than his decisions, I do have a problem with that.

Steve

 

[Big D]

I don't suppose you could point me to one of those posts you're referring to. I really can't remember a post where someone seriously said that our coach is infallible and above ever being questioned.

That is just hyperbole to make a point. Hence the use of the words like and as if.

The "In Whiz we trust" t-shirt line azsouth used was not hyperbole though. 82 really has one. He alternates it with his Max Hall jersey to home games.

 

[AzStevenCal]

That is just hyperbole to make a point. Hence the use of the words like and as if.

The "In Whiz we trust" t-shirt line azsouth used was not hyperbole though. 82 really has one. He alternates it with his Max Hall jersey to home games.

I knew it was to make a point but I think you'll find more references to Whiz being infallible in the posts by Whiz detractors than you will from the rest of us.

As far as 82 goes, I'd say some of his trusty t-shirt mentality has been in an effort to offset the anti-Whiz rhetoric that has stained these threads this past week. And with DA at the helm, it probably won't be long before we'll all be trying to borrow 82's Max Hall jersey.

Steve

 

[Mitch]

Mitch, I'm confused... exactly what would you prefer to see CKW do?

Are you upset that Matty was demoted?
Are you upset that Matty hasn't been released altogether?

What gives?

82CG...

I am upset with the way Whiz is handling this.

It's almost like the way he treated Edge at the end...holding onto him well past the draft---when everyone knew he was going to be released. Edge was deprived of entering free agency when the teams had the money and were shopping. That was awful...they screwed Edge.

It's not fair for the player...and Edge is a possible HOFer.

And everyone knows no team is going to trade for ML when they too know he's about to be released.

Would it be good for the team to keep ML as a backup?

He's totally demoralized...and he's been fed a hefty dose of humble pie...

I don't argue with the decision to go with the stronger arm and the young'uns.

What I argue is the lack of dignity the HC is showing in this process.

If he truly has affection for Matt then let him go so he can hook on with another team...and not have to walk around the Cardinals' complex like a lame duck.

Whiz really needs to clean up his m.o.

Maybe there's more truth to what Q's been saying about Whiz after all.

 

[wembley88]

I agree it's not nice on the player but I'm willing to cut Whis the benefit of the doubt. If he's seen anything to indicate to himself that Matt's not with the programme, then if his current treatment helps keep the other players minds focussed then it'll be worthwhile.

for example I dont think Belichick would be on all the Pats players Christmas card list. It's a disappointment the way this is playing out as opposed to Leinart blowing the doors off in camp, but my utter faith in the great man (Whis) means im not too worried that he's not making the right call or going about it in a way to suit the team.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

It's amazing how so many are so quick to lambaste Whiz and make such incredibly ill-informed and careless acccusations about a man who has done more for this franchise than any other individual since they come to AZ. Just because he benched Matty Leinart - Matt Leinart for gods sake, he is now an ego-maniac who is shunning what's best of the team because he desires to smear and ridicule a player?? Please...

That's not it. It's not that I think he wants to smear and ridicule Leinart. He obviously isn't a good judge of Leinart's talent for whatever reason. Whisenhunt has been pretty clear with his actions about how he feels about Leinart, and the best he could do is replace him with Derek Anderson. Derek Anderson for gods sake. This tells me that he is horrible at gauging the QB talent that he has on this team. Horrible at guaging free agent talent. Horrible at handling sticky situations with this team. When Boldin started speaking out, I thought it was just Boldin. Now that it is two people, it makes me take a step back and say, 'Maybe it wasn't just Boldin.'

 

[Spielman]

Warner certainly had his problems after years of trying to play with a debilitated thumb but once he put on the gloves, his fumbling was cut by over a 1/3, back to what he was doing in his GSOT days.

No. The gloves aren't what made Warner fumble less. Getting hit less often is what made Warner fumble less.

I don't know why I'm bothering with this, because it'll get swallowed up in the thread and is unlikely to actually be read by anyone, but what the hell.

If you look at QB fumbles as a function of how many times they actually get hit with the ball in their hands, it helps to understand a problem like Warner's.

In his GSOT seasons, his fumbles as a percentage of the times he got hit:
1999 - 17.31%
2000 - 10.53%
2001 - 15.15%

To put that in perspective, a pocket passer will fumble, on average, about 15% of the time. Warner, before 2002, was just about average.

After the hand injuries of Super Bowl XXXVI and 2002?
2004 - 23.08%
2005 - 24.32%
2006 - 37.04%
2007 - 32.43%
2008 - 25.00%
2009 - 28.89%

To put that in perspective, the worst career fumbling percentage of any other QB in history was Mark Rypien, at 20.09%. Each of those seasons, including during his begloved renaissance of 2007-2009, was absolutely awful in terms of holding onto the football.

The difference was how often Warner was getting hit. His post-GSOT sack percentages:
2004 - 12.3
2005 - 5.8
2006 - 7.7
2007 - 4.2
2008 - 4.2
2009 - 4.5

That's what changed. Warner had fewer chances to fumble, and therefore did so less often. You can put the credit for that on his altering his approach and getting rid of the ball better, or on the offensive line for improving, but the gloves didn't seem to help. Warner was still twice as likely to put the ball on the ground when he got hit as a normal QB. The hand was still a freaking disaster.

 

[moklerman]

Are you basing this on "hits" or on "sacks"? I'm curious where you're finding "hits" statistics.

 

[Spielman]

Are you basing this on "hits" or on "sacks"? I'm curious where you're finding "hits" statistics.

Not "finding". I had to calculate all that stuff myself. And yes, I was very bored, and yes, I do this kind of thing for fun. Yes, I am a geek.

After Warner's retirement, I was arguing with some friends about his fumbling and how bad it was and what it meant, and we didn't get anywhere because we didn't have any context for the discussion. How bad was he at holding onto the football? How bad was his hand? How much fumbling is a lot? How much is very little?

So I started running numbers. If you look at fumbles per game, it makes guys like Marino and Manning, who played behind excellent offensive lines and had quick releases, look fantastic. But that doesn't help to put Warner in context. If you use pass attempts, the results tend to be very unfair to running QBs, the Cunninghams and Vicks, and Stewarts, because every rush is a chance to fumble, but not an attempt, which skews the numbers.

In fact, without subdividing all fumbles into categories, (botched snaps, botched handoffs, sack fumbles, rush fumbles, etc.) and calculating each seperately, nothing's gonna be perfect. What I settled on was dividing the QB's fumbles by the number of times they got hit with the ball in their hands. That is, sacks+rushes+receptions+fumble recoveries. All of those are chances to fumble. The last two categories are, in most cases, non-factors, but I include them for the sake of completeness.

The weakness here is that a goodly percentage of fumbles occur on snaps or handoffs. It's also a bit unfair to pocket passers, who don't get to increase their denominator by running the ball. So you have to keep in mind what kind of QB you're talking about, and it isn't perfect. But what stat is? The idea is just to give you an idea of what QBs have the hardest time holding onto the football, and looking at it on a per-hit basis seems like the best way to do that to me.

Whew. Anyway, the results were pretty stark. Warner's career numbers were horrible, far worse than the next worst quarterback. And the difference pre and post hand injuries was stark too, taking him from essentially average, to just ungodly bad. And they didn't really show improvement after the gloves, which surprised me at the time.

 

[Shane]

He obviously isn't a good judge of Leinart's talent for whatever reason. '

But you are?

 

[chickenhead]

I've been really surprised with all the posters lambasting Whiz. I think ML is getting piled on in the media, and IMO it has everything to do with his former life as a USC golden boy. He's not even a total bust, and it's being played as if he's much worse. Except by the people who are defending his dignity, which I also don't totally understand because it's not as if he's a Cardinals legend being given an ungrateful exit.

The only truly valid question in my mind is: is Whiz sure he doesn't want ML starting, and when did he become sure?

Wanting to trade ML earlier to get more (and for his own sake) is a totally reasonable position. But how sure could Whiz have been about DA? Could he possibly have been sure enough to cut loose a QB who's been in the system for several years? Is it Max Hall that's making Whiz more comfortable with starting DA? As for McNabb or Campell--we haven't heard any actual commentary, so we just don't know.

Maybe Fitz has made it clear to Whiz that he'd rather have DA throwing to him than ML. He just watched Andre Johnson get a new contract, so maybe his numbers are a priority and he's willing to trade DA's interceptions for possible big plays. After all, he times his jumps better than anyone and maybe he'll just end up being the only guy who can actually get some of DA's passes, offense or defense.

As a hockey fan, this really does seem like an old-fashioned goalie
controversy. Once in a while you'll have two spectacular goalies, but usually not, like here. And usually the goalie that's moved is moved too late for too little. Because every other team knows all about it.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

But you are?

Do you really have to ask?

 

[schutd]

"Careless".....wow. That is a really tear jerking post. Again, this isn't about Leinart as much as it is about complete mismanagement from Whisenhunt. If you don't see it you are nothing more than a blind follower. To say he had no other options that to ride a QB as his starter that has been in his system for years, and then to demote him for a QB that has serious, proven flaws, in week 3 of the preseason, and then create a media circus in the process, is so beyond absurd it is unbelievable. I can't even believe thsi is being discussed this close to the first game. LIke I said, Whisenhunt did what he had to do with Leinart, and Plummer did what he had to do with his fiance, but there certainly were a lot of other ways to approach the situation. If this team wins 5 games the Whizzers will fly the "I believe in Whiz" flag to the grave so it really doesn't matter. Let me ask you this...is there ANY future scenario where you could find yourself questioning anything this man does or says? If not this is a pointless debate.

Everybody believes what they wish to, but the REAL truth is, there aint a single MF'er on here that knows the whole story. I know it takes all the fun out the board to use logic and such, but really. This whole scene has been created and perpetuated by fans and the media.

Maybe Matt's good, maybe he's garbage. We will never know because the man that come in here and in 3 years has been a leading figure in taking this team from perennial laughing stock to a super bowl appearance and a perennial playoff contender doesnt want him.

I dont give a crap how he handled it. I care about final scores on Sunday. period. Its not Go Boldin, Go Whiz, Go Matty, or Go Larry. Its GO CARDS.

 

[Mulli]

Everybody believes what they wish to, but the REAL truth is, there aint a single MF'er on here that knows the whole story. I know it takes all the fun out the board to use logic and such, but really. This whole scene has been created and perpetuated by fans and the media.

Maybe Matt's good, maybe he's garbage. We will never know because the man that come in here and in 3 years has been a leading figure in taking this team from perennial laughing stock to a super bowl appearance and a perennial playoff contender doesnt want him.

I dont give a crap how he handled it. I care about final scores on Sunday. period. Its not Go Boldin, Go Whiz, Go Matty, or Go Larry. Its GO CARDS.

This.

 

[azsouthendzone]

HOWEVER I do have to laugh when I hear/read a lot of the Whis knob-slobbing like the man is infalible and above ever being questioned as if he showed up on our sideline fresh from the womb of the virgin Mary.

 

[Russ Smith]

Not "finding". I had to calculate all that stuff myself. And yes, I was very bored, and yes, I do this kind of thing for fun. Yes, I am a geek.

After Warner's retirement, I was arguing with some friends about his fumbling and how bad it was and what it meant, and we didn't get anywhere because we didn't have any context for the discussion. How bad was he at holding onto the football? How bad was his hand? How much fumbling is a lot? How much is very little?

So I started running numbers. If you look at fumbles per game, it makes guys like Marino and Manning, who played behind excellent offensive lines and had quick releases, look fantastic. But that doesn't help to put Warner in context. If you use pass attempts, the results tend to be very unfair to running QBs, the Cunninghams and Vicks, and Stewarts, because every rush is a chance to fumble, but not an attempt, which skews the numbers.

In fact, without subdividing all fumbles into categories, (botched snaps, botched handoffs, sack fumbles, rush fumbles, etc.) and calculating each seperately, nothing's gonna be perfect. What I settled on was dividing the QB's fumbles by the number of times they got hit with the ball in their hands. That is, sacks+rushes+receptions+fumble recoveries. All of those are chances to fumble. The last two categories are, in most cases, non-factors, but I include them for the sake of completeness.

The weakness here is that a goodly percentage of fumbles occur on snaps or handoffs. It's also a bit unfair to pocket passers, who don't get to increase their denominator by running the ball. So you have to keep in mind what kind of QB you're talking about, and it isn't perfect. But what stat is? The idea is just to give you an idea of what QBs have the hardest time holding onto the football, and looking at it on a per-hit basis seems like the best way to do that to me.

Whew. Anyway, the results were pretty stark. Warner's career numbers were horrible, far worse than the next worst quarterback. And the difference pre and post hand injuries was stark too, taking him from essentially average, to just ungodly bad. And they didn't really show improvement after the gloves, which surprised me at the time.

Wow hats off to you that's a hell of a lot of work to support a theory you had but it sure sounds like your numbers are about as accurate as someone can get without all of the games on tape.

Thanks for posting that it was something we've discussed here before in the past that Kurt seems to fumble more than just about anybody we've seen in terms of when he gets hit, there's a good chance he'll fumble. Josh McCown always seemed to be the same way here, seemed like he fumbled half the times he got sacked.

 

[Shane]

Do you really have to ask?

Yes.