Kurt Warner talks about Matt Leinart's predicament

[Shane]

Everybody believes what they wish to, but the REAL truth is, there aint a single MF'er on here that knows the whole story. I know it takes all the fun out the board to use logic and such, but really. This whole scene has been created and perpetuated by fans and the media.

Maybe Matt's good, maybe he's garbage. We will never know because the man that come in here and in 3 years has been a leading figure in taking this team from perennial laughing stock to a super bowl appearance and a perennial playoff contender doesnt want him.

I dont give a crap how he handled it. I care about final scores on Sunday. period. Its not Go Boldin, Go Whiz, Go Matty, or Go Larry. Its GO CARDS.

 

[moklerman]

Not "finding". I had to calculate all that stuff myself. And yes, I was very bored, and yes, I do this kind of thing for fun. Yes, I am a geek.

I don't blame you at all and I've done similar exercises(in futility?). Pass attempts+sacks+rush attempts/fumbles is about as close as we can get I think. At least for QB's who generally don't run by design.

1999 - 551/9 = 1.6%
2001 - 612/10 = 1.6%

2004 - 329/12 = 3.6%

2005 - 411/9 = 2.2%
2006 - 195/10 = 5.1%*
*143/10 = 7.0% before the gloves(4 games)
52/0 = 0% after the gloves(2 games)

2007 - 488/12 = 2.4% (bionic left arm)
2008 - 642/11 = 1.7%
2009 - 558/11 = 1.9%

I think it's more than coincidence that adopting the gloves coincides with his % dropping back down under 2% once he was healthy.

And those are just "acceptable" numbers. I'm not trying to argue that Warner was ever particularly good or great at hanging onto the ball like Favre or Manning or whoever. His % is still on the medium to high side in terms of frequency but the gloves brought him back down to where he wouldn't be a liability.

 

[DeAnna]

He's totally demoralized...and he's been fed a hefty dose of humble pie...

What I argue is the lack of dignity the HC is showing in this process.

It's just part of the process where CKW takes the team by the neck and tightens the noose. He's now gotten rid of all of Denny's guys and has strict control over all the players. If you don't follow blindly, you're out (ie, Boldin/Leinart/Edge).

 

[moklerman]

This whole scene has been created and perpetuated by fans and the media.

We will never know because the man that come in here and in 3 years has been a leading figure in taking this team from perennial laughing stock to a super bowl appearance and a perennial playoff contender doesnt want him.

Seems like you're helping to perpetuate the unsubstantiated. Unless I missed the direct quote from Whis where he says he doesn't want Leinart.

 

[azsouthendzone]

It's just part of the process where CKW takes the team by the neck and tightens the noose. He's now gotten rid of all of Denny's guys and has strict control over all the players. If you don't follow blindly, you're out (ie, Boldin/Leinart/Edge).

Either you are with us, or you are against us

 

[Shane]

Seems like you're helping to perpetuate the unsubstantiated. Unless I missed the direct quote from Whis where he says he doesn't want Leinart.

Is a quote necessary? How bout the fact that it is widely know and confirmed that the Cards have been looking for a trade partner? As good as a quote IMO.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Everybody believes what they wish to, but the REAL truth is, there aint a single MF'er on here that knows the whole story. I know it takes all the fun out the board to use logic and such, but really. This whole scene has been created and perpetuated by fans and the media.

Maybe Matt's good, maybe he's garbage. We will never know because the man that come in here and in 3 years has been a leading figure in taking this team from perennial laughing stock to a super bowl appearance and a perennial playoff contender doesnt want him.

I dont give a crap how he handled it. I care about final scores on Sunday. period. Its not Go Boldin, Go Whiz, Go Matty, or Go Larry. Its GO CARDS.

I wish I could spell ditto.

Steve

 

[moklerman]

Is a quote necessary? How bout the fact that it is widely know and confirmed that the Cards have been looking for a trade partner? As good as a quote IMO.

So leaping to conclusions is allowed in some cases but not in others?

Has Leinart been traded? Has he been cut? Does a trade even look eminent at this point? Every rumored team has denied interest haven't they?

Is it IMPOSSIBLE that Whis and the Cardinals have ulterior motives to what the media and fans are speculating?

 

[Spielman]

I think it's more than coincidence that adopting the gloves coincides with his % dropping back down under 2% once he was healthy.

Yeah, I see the change in the numbers. I just don't agree about what it means.

The thing is, most QB fumbles take place on sacks. Small number of plays overall, but a big impact. When you use attempts in your divisor, it blunts the impact of those sacks so much that you actually lose meaning. If I look at a QB, and I see that he had 35 TDs one year, 10 the next, and 31 the next, do I think he had a terrible season in the middle year? No, I figure he probably got hurt. In the same way, if I see a QB go from 6 fumbles to 12 to 5, rather than figuring he forgot how to hang onto the football in the middle season, I figure he probably was getting sacked more. (Though with numbers that small, small sample size is maybe an even more likely culprit.)

Warner goes from 3.6 to 2.2 to 5.1 to 2.4 to 1.7 to 1.9 in your calculations. You say it's the gloves. I say it's that his sack rate went from 12.3 to 5.8 to 7.7 to 4.2 to 4.2 to 4.5. If most QB fumbles occur on sacks, it just makes sense that any flux in how often a guy is sacked is going to have a big impact in how much he puts the ball on the ground.

When you include attempts in your equation, you won't see that impact.

 

[WAllyworld]

Which is even more frustrating that the best the Cards could do is DA instead of pursuing McNabb or Campbell this offseason. Mike Lombardi said tonight that the Cards tried to trade ML to SEA this offseason and even Carrol didn't want him. Yikes.

Carroll took Whitehurst over Leinart? Wow. There must be something really wrong with his mechanics or arm strength. However, Lombardi may be on a flier here. If Leinart was on the trading block in the offseason, it would have been leaked before now. That sort of scuttlebutt is impossible to keep secret with all the 'unnamed sources' around.

 

[Shane]

So leaping to conclusions is allowed in some cases but not in others?

Has Leinart been traded? Has he been cut? Does a trade even look eminent at this point? Every rumored team has denied interest haven't they?

Is it IMPOSSIBLE that Whis and the Cardinals have ulterior motives to what the media and fans are speculating?

Your not leaping to conclusions when the team has specifically called other teams asking if they are interested in making a trade.

What possible ulterior motive to you have by doing that?

 

[WAllyworld]

82CG...

I am upset with the way Whiz is handling this.

It's almost like the way he treated Edge at the end...holding onto him well past the draft---when everyone knew he was going to be released. Edge was deprived of entering free agency when the teams had the money and were shopping. That was awful...they screwed Edge.

It's not fair for the player...and Edge is a possible HOFer.

And everyone knows no team is going to trade for ML when they too know he's about to be released.

Would it be good for the team to keep ML as a backup?

He's totally demoralized...and he's been fed a hefty dose of humble pie...

I don't argue with the decision to go with the stronger arm and the young'uns.

What I argue is the lack of dignity the HC is showing in this process.

If he truly has affection for Matt then let him go so he can hook on with another team...and not have to walk around the Cardinals' complex like a lame duck.

Whiz really needs to clean up his m.o.

Maybe there's more truth to what Q's been saying about Whiz after all.

You called this situation after the first preseason game. Kudos. What did you see on Aug 16th that revealed the endgame? Apparently Whiz suddenly realized that he couldn't ignore the obvious any longer : ML did not give the Cards its best chance to win each week. He only announced that DA would start the third preseason game last week. Prior to that, there was no indication that ML was demoted to #2. Mike Lombardi is claiming the Cards tried to deal ML in the offseason - did anyone ever hear that rumor before?

 

[Redheart]

You called this situation after the first preseason game. Kudos. What did you see on Aug 16th that revealed the endgame? Apparently Whiz suddenly realized that he couldn't ignore the obvious any longer : ML did not give the Cards its best chance to win each week. He only announced that DA would start the third preseason game last week. Prior to that, there was no indication that ML was demoted to #2. Mike Lombardi is claiming the Cards tried to deal ML in the offseason - did anyone ever hear that rumor before?

I think Mitch said the "turning point" was after the red and white scrimmage; I was up at camp for the following week of practise prior to the first pre-season game and was surprised to see that all four quarterbacks were getting the same number of reps in practise.

Matt was getting the same number of reps as the undrafted FA rookie QB, Max Hall.

 

[Spielman]

Wow hats off to you that's a hell of a lot of work to support a theory you had but it sure sounds like your numbers are about as accurate as someone can get without all of the games on tape.

Thanks for posting that it was something we've discussed here before in the past that Kurt seems to fumble more than just about anybody we've seen in terms of when he gets hit, there's a good chance he'll fumble. Josh McCown always seemed to be the same way here, seemed like he fumbled half the times he got sacked.

Thanks.

McCown's numbers come out at 17.41%, which would be the worst ever for a QB in his category, if he had had enough pass attempts to qualify in my original study.

The best of all time, by the way, was Bert Jones of the Baltimore Colts. He scores at 3.34%, which is helped some by his running a fair amount, but he wasn't at all extreme a running QB. 16 total fumbles in his career. That's a season for Kerry Collins.

 

[moklerman]

Your not leaping to conclusions when the team has specifically called other teams asking if they are interested in making a trade.

What possible ulterior motive to you have by doing that?

Well, according to Whis that was just about the same time Leinart finally went to his office and had a talk.

Look at what Whis has said. When he made this change he said it didn't affect the depth chart but he wanted to see how the players reacted. EVERYTHING has stemmed from there. Leinart is still on the Cardinals, he is still playing vs. the Redskins and now, Whis and he have a dialogue going. Not to mention, there hasn't been a peep from Leinart since the meeting on Monday. Leinart is quiet, he's in the lineup, all trade rumors have been squelched by the other teams if one can even believe all that is being reported.

How did Leinart look vs. Chicago compared to his first 2 starts? Has he seemed more motivated/passionate since the switch? Has he stood up and said that he wants to be a starter.

Every see Mr. Baseball?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Yes.

 

[Rivercard]

Seems like you're helping to perpetuate the unsubstantiated. Unless I missed the direct quote from Whis where he says he doesn't want Leinart.

And seriously, unless you want to play the "Bidwill is cheap" card, why would we cut Leinart in an uncapped year with only 2 rookies behind DA? Can't believe the boys in the locker room would feel very good about their chances with that scenario.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Sadly I believe it is exactly true that his teammates don't have his back. He may be a jerk or something, I don't know, but I would hope that the players would have each others backs no matter what. This just seems too much like Jr. High School level social ostracizing against Matt, maybe deserved, but still shows a lack of character on his teammates parts, if true.

Sorry! But, when you know that the Coach and player X or Y don't get along, the last thing you do is piss off the guy who decides your livelihood.

 

[moklerman]

When you include attempts in your equation, you won't see that impact.

I disagree. The impact is included just not differentiated. The more rare occurrence is a muffed handoff, which is the flaw in my formula. Whatever muffed handoffs occurred are being assimilated as a fumbled snap, simple drop or sack/fumble.

But since we're trying to figure out how frequently a QB is fumbling I think it's necessary to use pass attempts as the dividend. How often he fumbles when sacked is a separate and isolated entity. Especially in Warner's case since a significant portion of his career he simply couldn't hang onto the ball or safely take a snap from center.

Regarding your Bert Jones stat, I wonder where you researched that info? Game logs are relatively incomplete once you go back to a certain point. NFL.com for sure and I think profootballreference.com has only made it back to the '80's so far. What's showing up as "-" fumbles may not actually mean "0".

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Put me down as having my doubts about the almighty Whis as well. The cupboard was ANYTHING but bare when Whis got here. He did a good job of preparing the meal but as Parcells would say he didn't buy the groceries so I really can't go too overboard in heaping praise on him as some others have and do. This year is the 1st season I believe that Whis has truly put his stamp on the team personel-wise after the departure of some very key players that he again was not responsible in bringing in. He's turned over the roster and won't be handcuffed by Leinart now that he has his very own hand picked QB under center.

To me Warner's play individually had more to do with the success of the past two seasons than anything Whis did. Yes it was his decision to play him and Whizzie deserves credit there but it's not like Warner had never been a pro-bowler, world champion, SB and multiple MVP before any of us knew who the hell Ken Whisenhunt was. I thought it was Whis' plan to bring a smashmouth, Pittsburgh-west style of football when he came here? What happened to that? Oh thats right he adjusted to the talent that was already in place. Kudos for making that adjustment. Well it's year 4 now and I'm still waiting waiting for that plan to come to fruition. In my eyes Whis would have proved his salt and gained more respect by coaching up and getting something, ANYTHING out of a guy that we invested a lot of money and a top 10 pick in.

Anyway for me it comes down to Whis making a bad decision with QB situation this year in choosing Anderson over Leinart. The manner in which the whole thing has been handled makes that bad decision much worse than it probably is in all reality. HOWEVER I do have to laugh when I hear/read a lot of the Whis knob-slobbing like the man is infalible and above ever being questioned as if he showed up on our sideline fresh from the womb of the virgin Mary.

Who do you think reinvented Warner (with the help of Haley)? If the cupboard wasnt bare how come DG couldnt win the same talent?

We all have the right to questionany coach, we are fans, but seriously, this took just a week until people started turning on them man who has brought unprecedented success to this team. THE ARIZONA CARDINALS ARE 2 TIME DEFENDING NFC WEST CHAMPIONS!!!!! WOW

It is funny, if Parcells or Belicheck, or Phil Jackson or any other coach plays "mind games" they are labeled as a genius.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Everybody believes what they wish to, but the REAL truth is, there aint a single MF'er on here that knows the whole story. I know it takes all the fun out the board to use logic and such, but really. This whole scene has been created and perpetuated by fans and the media.

Maybe Matt's good, maybe he's garbage. We will never know because the man that come in here and in 3 years has been a leading figure in taking this team from perennial laughing stock to a super bowl appearance and a perennial playoff contender doesnt want him.

I dont give a crap how he handled it. I care about final scores on Sunday. period. Its not Go Boldin, Go Whiz, Go Matty, or Go Larry. Its GO CARDS.

Amen...this board has been polluted for a week with the wailing and gnashing of the teeth by irrational fools obsessed with a qb who has proven nothing.

Even if you're pissed about the choice, it's made, so get over it. (or continue to bitch and moan about, whatever makes you happy)

 

[Rivercard]

It is funny, if Parcells or Belicheck, or Phil Jackson or any other coach plays "mind games" they are labeled as a genius.

Fear not, if DA becomes the 2nd ex-pro bowler that Whis resurrects to greatness, he'll definitely get his props for sure.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Sorry! But, when you know that the Coach and player X or Y don't get along, the last thing you do is piss off the guy who decides your livelihood.

True to a point, but I thought it was interesting what Schlereth said on NFL live last night about the situation. He said, in the twitter age, it's pretty telling that not one teammate has made any comment in support of Leinart. In this case, the silence is deafening.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

That's not it. It's not that I think he wants to smear and ridicule Leinart. He obviously isn't a good judge of Leinart's talent for whatever reason. Whisenhunt has been pretty clear with his actions about how he feels about Leinart, and the best he could do is replace him with Derek Anderson. Derek Anderson for gods sake. This tells me that he is horrible at gauging the QB talent that he has on this team. Horrible at guaging free agent talent. Horrible at handling sticky situations with this team. When Boldin started speaking out, I thought it was just Boldin. Now that it is two people, it makes me take a step back and say, 'Maybe it wasn't just Boldin.'

HAHAHHAA Thats funny. Yeah you and well, maybe Matt's mom, are the only ones that feel Matt has this great untapped talent and only you can see it. Jesus. I suppose Gruden and Warner and every other player/coach who has chimed in on this issue, is just as blind

He has had 3.5 years to win this job. He has not done it. end of discussion

 

[moklerman]

Who do you think reinvented Warner (with the help of Haley)? If the cupboard wasnt bare how come DG couldnt win the same talent?

KC
And with the clock winding down, Leinart drove the Cardinals into field-goal range. But Neil Rackers missed a 51-yard kick that would have tied it with 2 seconds to play.

CHI
But Rackers, a Pro Bowl kicker last season who connected from 41, 28 and 29 yards earlier in the evening, missed a 41-yarder to the left with 53 seconds left for what would have been the game winner for Arizona (1-5).

I guess Green can be blamed for bringing in Rackers and doing it to himself but he had this team in a pretty good spot to make a run at winning seasons. With just those two games the Cardinals would have been 7-9 in '06. Would that have given Green another year? Would the team have been playing differently had they won and gained confidence? Not to mention seeing their coach lose his mind at the podium and become an instant lame duck.

Green may have lost his mind but he had the team in good shape and with better QB play from Warner and better kicking from Rackers he wouldn't have looked like such an underachiever.