Kurt Warner talks about Matt Leinart's predicament

[LVCARDFREAK]

It's just part of the process where CKW takes the team by the neck and tightens the noose. He's now gotten rid of all of Denny's guys and has strict control over all the players. If you don't follow blindly, you're out (ie, Boldin/Leinart/Edge).

Im confused by this.

Boldin, who I love, wanted a very large contract. A contract that rivaled Fitz. A contract that would have the Cardinals tie up some $67 million dollars (Fitz $40 million + Boldins $27 Million) They made a business decision. Nothing else. It had to be done, and although I am sad about it, it was the right decision

Edge - Great guy and I feel like the value he brought to the team was more in the lockerroom and eladership. Gave the team a swagger and it was a good p/u. Sadly, he had no juice left. As witnessed by him being out of the league now and getting cut by a seahawks team that was riding the ever-dangerous Julius Jones last year, it was also the right decision

Leinart - I wont comment on this but to say 3years. He had his opportunity and failed to seize it.

 

[moklerman]

True to a point, but I thought it was interesting what Schlereth said on NFL live last night about the situation. He said, in the twitter age, it's pretty telling that not one teammate has made any comment in support of Leinart. In this case, the silence is deafening.

They were just as quiet before Warner got the job. I think that's too much mind-reading and a non-issue.

Look at it the other way. Has the team publicly come out and spoke up for Anderson? No, it's all just speculation at this point. Whis' "chemistry" comment has sent the media into a fictional frenzy.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

KC
And with the clock winding down, Leinart drove the Cardinals into field-goal range. But Neil Rackers missed a 51-yard kick that would have tied it with 2 seconds to play.

CHI
But Rackers, a Pro Bowl kicker last season who connected from 41, 28 and 29 yards earlier in the evening, missed a 41-yarder to the left with 53 seconds left for what would have been the game winner for Arizona (1-5).

I guess Green can be blamed for bringing in Rackers and doing it to himself but he had this team in a pretty good spot to make a run at winning seasons. With just those two games the Cardinals would have been 7-9 in '06. Would that have given Green another year? Would the team have been playing differently had they won and gained confidence? Not to mention seeing their coach lose his mind at the podium and become an instant lame duck.

Green may have lost his mind but he had the team in good shape and with better QB play from Warner and better kicking from Rackers he wouldn't have looked like such an underachiever.

Really? We are now arguing the merits of DG? Come on dude. His time here was a disaster. He was the most unorganized, emotional, head case the Cards have had for a coach.

Lets move on fromt his arguement please....

 

[Spielman]

I disagree. The impact is included just not differentiated. The more rare occurrence is a muffed handoff, which is the flaw in my formula. Whatever muffed handoffs occurred are being assimilated as a fumbled snap, simple drop or sack/fumble.

But since we're trying to figure out how frequently a QB is fumbling I think it's necessary to use pass attempts as the dividend. How often he fumbles when sacked is a separate and isolated entity. Especially in Warner's case since a significant portion of his career he simply couldn't hang onto the ball or safely take a snap from center.

Regarding your Bert Jones stat, I wonder where you researched that info? Game logs are relatively incomplete once you go back to a certain point. NFL.com for sure and I think profootballreference.com has only made it back to the '80's so far. What's showing up as "-" fumbles may not actually mean "0".

Well, I disagree with you. The impact is technically included, but diluted so far that in practical terms it's invisible. We're just going to have to disagree, now and forevermore, amen.

Regarding Jones, you don't need game logs for anything either one of us is doing here, so the lack of game logs is irrelevant.

 

[earthsci]

True to a point, but I thought it was interesting what Schlereth said on NFL live last night about the situation. He said, in the twitter age, it's pretty telling that not one teammate has made any comment in support of Leinart. In this case, the silence is deafening.

The way that I look at it is if they throw their support behind Leinart and he ends up gone, they backed the wrong horse. If they dog on Leinart and this issue gets worked out, keeping Leinart on the team, which IMO is still possible, there is bad blood. Either way, like it or not, no one wants to piss off Whiz.

:EDIT: IMO Whiz wants everyone to stay mum about this and he has AW, 90 & Fitz in his (Whiz's) corner.

 

[moklerman]

Leinart - I wont comment on this but to say 3years. He had his opportunity and failed to seize it.

Is that really the case or just what's been said so often that it's considered the truth?

2006 - took over for Warner and looked like and performed like the real deal.
2007 - opened camp as the starter and although platooning, remained the starter until he got hurt. Looked good against Pittsburgh in his last game before getting hurt too. He was getting better.
2008 - didn't look dazzling in the first two preseason games but good enough to not lose the job and imploded against Oakland.

Yes, he succumbed to the pressure of having to beat out a guy who was the most productive QB in the NFL the whole 2nd half of 2007 but since then, when has he really had a chance to take the job? Were they really going to let him compete for it after Warner and the Cardinals went to the SB?

He choked in the '07 preseason but he had to do a lot more than just hang onto the job in that situation. Other than that, I don't see how he's missed all of these supposed opportunities.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

They were just as quiet before Warner got the job. I think that's too much mind-reading and a non-issue.

Look at it the other way. Has the team publicly come out and spoke up for Anderson? No, it's all just speculation at this point. Whis' "chemistry" comment has sent the media into a fictional frenzy.

I'll take the word of an ex-player who probably has a little different insight than you or I.

 

[Duckjake]

Amen...this board has been polluted for a week with the wailing and gnashing of the teeth by irrational fools obsessed with a qb who has proven nothing.

Even if you're pissed about the choice, it's made, so get over it. (or continue to bitch and moan about, whatever makes you happy)

Or the obsessing over having a starting qb who has proved he has nothing.

Regardless it sure will make tonight's game more interesting than the usual game 4 of preseason.

 

[moklerman]

The impact is technically included, but diluted so far that in practical terms it's invisible.

No, it's just included. I think you're trying illuminate the sack/fumble at the expense of the overall picture.

Regarding Jones, you don't need game logs for anything either one of us is doing here, so the lack of game logs is irrelevant.

I'm not sure how you're coming to that conclusion. The site(s) that's compiling the stat's needs complete game logs to calculate the season totals don't they? Just as they didn't keep detailed stats on sacks I think the same holds true for QB fumbles. I may be wrong, just thought I'd caution you about looking at some of the old-timer's stats and being misled.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Is that really the case or just what's been said so often that it's considered the truth?

2006 - took over for Warner and looked like and performed like the real deal.
2007 - opened camp as the starter and although platooning, remained the starter until he got hurt. Looked good against Pittsburgh in his last game before getting hurt too. He was getting better.
2008 - didn't look dazzling in the first two preseason games but good enough to not lose the job and imploded against Oakland.

Yes, he succumbed to the pressure of having to beat out a guy who was the most productive QB in the NFL the whole 2nd half of 2007 but since then, when has he really had a chance to take the job? Were they really going to let him compete for it after Warner and the Cardinals went to the SB?

He choked in the '07 preseason but he had to do a lot more than just hang onto the job in that situation. Other than that, I don't see how he's missed all of these supposed opportunities.

Three years of mini camps, OTA's, 2-a-days, preseason games, etc etc. Could he have beaten out Warner? Probably not. Could he have shown that he belonged on the roster and be the QBOF after Warner? yes. But he failed to do that. He didnt "choke the opportunities" as Gruden said.

This is my own personal opinion and I have no evidence to back this up other than a gut feeling: I really believe Whiz stated to the FO for years he didnt think Matt was the guy. I dont think this is new. I just think the FO has finally come around to the realization that Whiz is right. Thats why we are seeing this happen now.

 

[moklerman]

I'll take the word of an ex-player who probably has a little different insight than you or I.

Who? Calvin Pace? Simeon Rice?

I know, you mean Boldin but I think you're agreeing with him because it's what you want to hear. Boldin can hardly be considered and unbiased source of opinion.

Besides, Warner said that Leinart isn't really getting a fair shake. So who's to believe? Which player is more credible?

 

[moklerman]

Three years of mini camps, OTA's, 2-a-days, preseason games, etc etc. Could he have beaten out Warner? Probably not. Could he have shown that he belonged on the roster and be the QBOF after Warner? yes. But he failed to do that. He didnt "choke the opportunities" as Gruden said.

This is my own personal opinion and I have no evidence to back this up other than a gut feeling: I really believe Whiz stated to the FO for years he didnt think Matt was the guy. I dont think this is new. I just think the FO has finally come around to the realization that Whiz is right. Thats why we are seeing this happen now.

I don't find that implausible but it certainly doesn't seem like Whis would have had much trouble getting rid of Leinart last year if that was really the case. For Whis to go through yet another offseason, OTA's and preseason with Leinart as his guy and then come to the realization that it just isn't going to work is a big slap to the face of his evaluation skills IMO.

I just have a hard time believing that he didn't essentially know last year what he seems to have figured out after the 2nd preseason game.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

I don't find that implausible but it certainly doesn't seem like Whis would have had much trouble getting rid of Leinart last year if that was really the case. For Whis to go through yet another offseason, OTA's and preseason with Leinart as his guy and then come to the realization that it just isn't going to work is a big slap to the face of his evaluation skills IMO.

I just have a hard time believing that he didn't essentially know last year what he seems to have figured out after the 2nd preseason game.

No I think you missed the point. I think he Knew Leinart wasnt the guy for a while now, but the FO kinda forced his hand by making him keep Leinart. I dont know, and like I said, pure speculation, but I could see it happening.

 

[moklerman]

I didn't miss the point, I just don't agree that if Whis truly wanted something after going to the Super Bowl, he would have got what he wanted. I don't think he would have waited for a year and for Warner to retire and be stuck with Anderson if his goal was to just get rid of Leinart.

Even if Whis and the FO decided not to mess with a SB team, Warner announced his retirement early enough this year that if Whis wanted to draft a guy earlier or find a FA that he could have done so and I don't think the FO would have forced him to keep Leinart between last February and now that the season is about to start go ahead and change their mind, essentially giving him away for nothing and leaving the team in really shaky shape at the QB position.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Who? Calvin Pace? Simeon Rice?

I know, you mean Boldin but I think you're agreeing with him because it's what you want to hear. Boldin can hardly be considered and unbiased source of opinion.

Besides, Warner said that Leinart isn't really getting a fair shake. So who's to believe? Which player is more credible?

See previous quote you responded to.

 

[Spielman]

I'm not sure how you're coming to that conclusion. The site(s) that's compiling the stat's needs complete game logs to calculate the season totals don't they? Just as they didn't keep detailed stats on sacks I think the same holds true for QB fumbles. I may be wrong, just thought I'd caution you about looking at some of the old-timer's stats and being misled.

The NFL has kept track of individual fumbles since, I believe, 1945. The AFL recorded team and individual fumbles. The AAFC did not, so Otto Graham's numbers are off, but we're not going that far back.

For a guy like Jones, who began playing in 1973, the numbers are fine. They may have inaccuracies in the sense that they occasionally find out that Roger Maris scored 132 runs in 1961 instead of 133, but they are, generally, as accurate as you can ask for in this crazy world.

Good night and good luck.

 

[moklerman]

See previous quote you responded to.

Why bother? You're at the point where you're offering Mark Schlereth's insights into the Cardinals as a point of interest. I think you're too far gone on this subject.

 

[Rivercard]

I didn't miss the point, I just don't agree that if Whis truly wanted something after going to the Super Bowl, he would have got what he wanted. I don't think he would have waited for a year and for Warner to retire and be stuck with Anderson if his goal was to just get rid of Leinart.

I agree. The timing is just weird. If Whis truly knew a long time ago that Matt didn't have the goods to succeed and cuts him before week 1, then he should be rightly criticized for going to camp with only DA and 2 rooks. Most likely Whis was hoping that Matt would be farther along by this time - and that's all there is to it.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Amen...this board has been polluted for a week with the wailing and gnashing of the teeth by irrational fools obsessed with a qb who has proven nothing.

Even if you're pissed about the choice, it's made, so get over it. (or continue to bitch and moan about, whatever makes you happy)

Thank you for rational take on all of this. Greatly appreciated.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

I agree. The timing is just weird. If Whis truly knew a long time ago that Matt didn't have the goods to succeed and cuts him before week 1, then he should be rightly criticized for going to camp with only DA and 2 rooks. Most likely Whis was hoping that Matt would be farther along by this time - and that's all there is to it.

Probably right, like I said, just pure speculation.

I just cant believe, and dont believe , that this decision was based on this preseason. Why Whiz or the FO decided till now to make a move is a little mind boggling to me.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Why bother? You're at the point where you're offering Mark Schlereth's insights into the Cardinals as a point of interest. I think you're too far gone on this subject.

I think it's funny that you dismiss him so quickly, especially when it isn't necessarily situation specific to the Cardinals, more a general observation from an ex player who is keyed into the league. Continue to dismiss all these people as much as you want and put the blinders up, it's worthless discussing Leinart related issues with you at this point.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Thank you for rational take on all of this. Greatly appreciated.

Ha, np, I've got your back CC!

 

[Crazy Canuck]

True to a point, but I thought it was interesting what Schlereth said on NFL live last night about the situation. He said, in the twitter age, it's pretty telling that not one teammate has made any comment in support of Leinart. In this case, the silence is deafening.

As if what one would say on Twitter, wouldn't get back to the principals.

I call BS on Schlereth, and he knows better.

(Believe me, and I've been there, when the Coach has a problem with someone, you keep your head down and shut up, unless you want to share the doghouse)

 

[moklerman]

I think it's funny that you dismiss him so quickly, especially when it isn't necessarily situation specific to the Cardinals, more a general observation from an ex player who is keyed into the league. Continue to dismiss all these people as much as you want and put the blinders up, it's worthless discussing Leinart related issues with you at this point.

So I'm waiting to see what Whis actually has in plan, not jumping to conclusions and just exploring possibilities but you're banging the drum for Mark Schlereth, who rarely, if ever, has anything good to say about the Cardinals and Anquan Boldin, a disgruntled ex-employee?

You still haven't answered why we should take his word over Warner's if we're going to rely on ex-players commenting on a situation that they aren't actually involved in.

 

[Rivercard]

it's worthless discussing Leinart related issues with you at this point.

Why? Whether you agree or not, Molker has made some valid points.