Kyler Murray stats vs Ravens

[Krangodnzr]

I would agree. It is a group with very little top end talent that has been playing at a league average level.

Humphries is the only above average player, but Sweezy has been a pleasant surprise.

I think you have to credit Kugler with the early returns.

Outside of Murray squared, David Johnson had been the worst pass protector on the team.

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

This is the first game where I haven't felt like I was gonna throw up in a while.

Thought Kyler and the team as a whole looked a lot more prepared this game than the last one. Our o-line is definitely my biggest concern.

Our lack of outside contain... after Lamar's first 50 yards rushing were one of my bigger concerns.

 

[Krangodnzr]

The only big things I would like to see him progress with is his movement in the pocket(specifically moving up as his drops seem deep) and utilizing his mobility to punish teams for playing man-coverage. I think those are two areas where he could both help his offensive line and help his wide receivers (and himself) immensely. If edge rushers have to worry more about contain and teams have to play more zone, it will really help our offense.

Like many others have pointed out, he has been extremely tentative running so far.

Hes actually been better as a passer than I thought hed be through two games, but significantly worse as a runner.

I thought we'd see 225 yards passing and 50 yard rushing kind of games.

So far he's played more like Drew Brees than Russell Wilson.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I'm not really surprised by the passing, but I agree about the running.

I would have assumed that he would have at least 1 big running game so far, but I am not upset by the result.

I would rather the passing be coming along first as that likely means that teams will start to really load up in coverage and he will likely start to torch them with his feet when they do.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

I'm not really surprised by the passing, but I agree about the running.

I would have assumed that he would have at least 1 big running game so far, but I am not upset by the result.

I would rather the passing be coming along first as that likely means that teams will start to really load up in coverage and he will likely start to torch them with his feet when they do.

Agree. His ability as a pure passer is much, much more important than his running.

In college, Riley seldom called designed runs for Murray, and almost all his yardage was from scrambling. So, it comes down to opportunities, and I'm okay with letting Murray use his judgement.

Bottom line is that it appears things are slowly coming together. We're 12th in total yardage, and 13th (13th!) in points-per-game. It's early, but the offense has exceeded expectations thus far.

 

[Krangodnzr]

That option play the Cardinals have been running has fooled no one.

 

[kerouac9]

That option play the Cardinals have been running has fooled no one.

It depends on what option you're talking about. The read option has managed to freeze outside rushers, which is the idea (to remove a prospective man in the box from the play). It's just that I don't think David Johnson has a feel for where space is going to open up with this line.

I also think that he's positioned on the right side of the line often to show that he might be in to pass protect (I think we're playing more TEs than we want to protect RT Murray — Maxx Williams has played a quarter of offensive snaps). I think you want to run behind Humphries and Pugh with Sweezy pulling around. We can't do that when the RT needs help on every play.

 

[Chopper0080]

Agree. His ability as a pure passer is much, much more important than his running.

In college, Riley seldom called designed runs for Murray, and almost all his yardage was from scrambling. So, it comes down to opportunities, and I'm okay with letting Murray use his judgement.

Bottom line is that it appears things are slowly coming together. We're 12th in total yardage, and 13th (13th!) in points-per-game. It's early, but the offense has exceeded expectations thus far.

I really disagree with this. Vs a young QB, defenses are inclined to play and blitz to speed up the decision making process and force you to make harder throws. Defenses are also trained on stretch or zone running plays to crash the backside defender unless the offense can force them to have to honor the QB boot.

By not running, Murray is hurting multiple units on our offense.

1-He is hurting the running game because defenses aren't honoring him as a threat on the backside. This makes clogs the cutback lanes which is one of the strengths of DJ.

2-He is hurting the offensive line. Not only are they facing more blitzes, but they are facing more immediate blitzes. Teams are pressing at the line and then bringing defenders into Murray's face because of his height. If Murray can slip and break contain, it can lead to huge plays because DBs are trailing and have their back to the QB. Teams play zone coverage vs mobile QBs for that reason. It enables them to see when the QB breaks contain and come up and make a play.

3-It hurts himself and his WRs in the passing game. Our WRs are not overly fast but they are as a group, good route runners. They have skillsets to expose holes in zone coverage better than they do to outrun and separate vs man. It also hurts Murray who is a smart and accurate passer. His skill set is made to diagnose areas of space in defenses and deliver accurate throws. By facing mostly man, Murray is forced to throw more tightly contested balls hoping the defender does not get his head around a break up the pass.

 

[Chopper0080]

The problem is that I don't see a lot of teams playing man coverage. a lot of five and six in the box are enough to discourage Murray from trying to move up or get outside. Our WRs are running side to side and opponents are getting good exchanges often.

The reason why Murray and Fitz are connecting on these 20-30 yard passes is because when the protection holds up, there's no one in those middle zones.

I will have to research that because it has looked differently to me in the moment when watching games. Maybe I am telling myself a story because I feel like I am seeing Murray throw balls to WRs with DBs in trail position a ton.

 

[SoonerLou]

Like many others have pointed out, he has been extremely tentative running so far.

Hes actually been better as a passer than I thought hed be through two games, but significantly worse as a runner.

I thought we'd see 225 yards passing and 50 yard rushing kind of games.

So far he's played more like Drew Brees than Russell Wilson.

I'm not really surprised by the passing, but I agree about the running.

I would have assumed that he would have at least 1 big running game so far, but I am not upset by the result.

I would rather the passing be coming along first as that likely means that teams will start to really load up in coverage and he will likely start to torch them with his feet when they do.

I really disagree with this. Vs a young QB, defenses are inclined to play and blitz to speed up the decision making process and force you to make harder throws. Defenses are also trained on stretch or zone running plays to crash the backside defender unless the offense can force them to have to honor the QB boot.

By not running, Murray is hurting multiple units on our offense.

1-He is hurting the running game because defenses aren't honoring him as a threat on the backside. This makes clogs the cutback lanes which is one of the strengths of DJ.

2-He is hurting the offensive line. Not only are they facing more blitzes, but they are facing more immediate blitzes. Teams are pressing at the line and then bringing defenders into Murray's face because of his height. If Murray can slip and break contain, it can lead to huge plays because DBs are trailing and have their back to the QB. Teams play zone coverage vs mobile QBs for that reason. It enables them to see when the QB breaks contain and come up and make a play.

3-It hurts himself and his WRs in the passing game. Our WRs are not overly fast but they are as a group, good route runners. They have skillsets to expose holes in zone coverage better than they do to outrun and separate vs man. It also hurts Murray who is a smart and accurate passer. His skill set is made to diagnose areas of space in defenses and deliver accurate throws. By facing mostly man, Murray is forced to throw more tightly contested balls hoping the defender does not get his head around a break up the pass.

Not to get too technical

Is it possible its a matter of stride length/stride frequency?


Kyler has great stride frequency. However, he really doesn't have the the stride length of the great running QBs (like a Wilson, Lamar Jackson Vick, Kaep, etc.)

So when he tries to get in gear to run teams are able to track him down. Sort of like how the Lions blitz got on him so quickly to where he couldnt react fast enough. Lamar Jackson probably slips out of that Brandon Carr sack late in the game.Give him a lot of space and he's gone..but in tight areas he can be got.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

I really disagree with this. Vs a young QB, defenses are inclined to play and blitz to speed up the decision making process and force you to make harder throws. Defenses are also trained on stretch or zone running plays to crash the backside defender unless the offense can force them to have to honor the QB boot.

By not running, Murray is hurting multiple units on our offense.

1-He is hurting the running game because defenses aren't honoring him as a threat on the backside. This makes clogs the cutback lanes which is one of the strengths of DJ.

2-He is hurting the offensive line. Not only are they facing more blitzes, but they are facing more immediate blitzes. Teams are pressing at the line and then bringing defenders into Murray's face because of his height. If Murray can slip and break contain, it can lead to huge plays because DBs are trailing and have their back to the QB. Teams play zone coverage vs mobile QBs for that reason. It enables them to see when the QB breaks contain and come up and make a play.

3-It hurts himself and his WRs in the passing game. Our WRs are not overly fast but they are as a group, good route runners. They have skillsets to expose holes in zone coverage better than they do to outrun and separate vs man. It also hurts Murray who is a smart and accurate passer. His skill set is made to diagnose areas of space in defenses and deliver accurate throws. By facing mostly man, Murray is forced to throw more tightly contested balls hoping the defender does not get his head around a break up the pass.

You're creating a boogyman.

I'm not saying that I don't want K1 to run. I'm just saying let him pick his spots. He's an instinctive runner, and he'll exploit opportunities when they present themselves.

Let him take what the defense is giving him, and don't get him broken like Cam by running him into the teeth of waiting defenses. If defenses box him in, and blitz him, he'll make them pay.

His QB rating vs. BAL was 90.5. He beat their blitz most of the time, and threw for 350 yards with no turnovers. They contained him, but he beat them with his arm. That wasn't a fluke Chopper.

Everything's cool. I'm with you in that I can't wait for Murray to make some LB or CB look silly out on the 2nd level. It will happen sir, I promise. Just be patient.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Not to get too technical

Is it possible its a matter of stride length/stride frequency?


Kyler has great stride frequency. However, he really doesn't have the the stride length of the great running QBs (like a Wilson, Lamar Jackson Vick, Kaep, etc.)

So when he tries to get in gear to run teams are able to track him down. Sort of like how the Lions blitz got on him so quickly to where he couldnt react fast enough. Lamar Jackson probably slips out of that Brandon Carr sack late in the game.Give him a lot of space and he's gone..but in tight areas he can be got.

Not particularly sure how stride length really matters. Murray is clearly very quick and gets to a fast speed very quickly. The issue he seems to be having is that every time he gets out of the pocket and runs there just isn't much space to run in. Maybe that is simply because he is choosing the wrong moments to run or defenses are simply giving his running ability some added attention at the moment.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

It depends on what option you're talking about. The read option has managed to freeze outside rushers, which is the idea (to remove a prospective man in the box from the play). It's just that I don't think David Johnson has a feel for where space is going to open up with this line.

I also think that he's positioned on the right side of the line often to show that he might be in to pass protect (I think we're playing more TEs than we want to protect RT Murray — Maxx Williams has played a quarter of offensive snaps). I think you want to run behind Humphries and Pugh with Sweezy pulling around. We can't do that when the RT needs help on every play.

IMHO, the traditional option/pitch play (i.e. OU circa 1978) is not really viable at the NFL level. It might get you five or six yards if blocked well. But most of the time a submarining safety or CB will blast through and blow the play up.

Once in a great while a guy like K1 might skitter through the traffic at the line at pick 15 or 20, but I hope we don't run this play more than once a game.

However, I agree with you that the zone read thing (where the QB reads the DE, right?) can consistently be effective. It can either get DJ to the edge with some momentum, or Murray can find five or six yards of green grass, and then get down without taking a shot.

 

[SoonerLou]

Not particularly sure how stride length really matters. Murray is clearly very quick and gets to a fast speed very quickly. The issue he seems to be having is that every time he gets out of the pocket and runs there just isn't much space to run in. Maybe that is simply because he is choosing the wrong moments to run or defenses are simply giving his running ability some added attention at the moment.

Kyler is very twitchy. However, I'm saying Lamar and other could truly step out of situations and then get up to speed. Kyler needs two.

Kyler's running style features very choppy steps.


I think its something he can adjust and figure out. However, what he did in college in terms of evading defenders isn't working. So once he adjust to NFL speed he should be ok.

 

[SoonerLou]

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[SoonerLou]

If Byrd could have broke free on that play it would have been a touchdown.

Gotta get more explosive guys on the outside imo.

 

[kerouac9]

You're creating a boogyman.

I'm not saying that I don't want K1 to run. I'm just saying let him pick his spots. He's an instinctive runner, and he'll exploit opportunities when they present themselves.

Let him take what the defense is giving him, and don't get him broken like Cam by running him into the teeth of waiting defenses. If defenses box him in, and blitz him, he'll make them pay.

His QB rating vs. BAL was 90.5. He beat their blitz most of the time, and threw for 350 yards with no turnovers. They contained him, but he beat them with his arm. That wasn't a fluke Chopper.

Everything's cool. I'm with you in that I can't wait for Murray to make some LB or CB look silly out on the 2nd level. It will happen sir, I promise. Just be patient.

The Cards lost. He hasn't beaten anyone.

His level of play is substantially worse than Dak Prescott and DeShaun Watson in their first appearances. There are a lot of empty calories in those yardage totals. Kyler is 21st in DYAR and 20th in QBR.

 

[SoonerLou]

The Cards lost. He hasn't beaten anyone.

His level of play is substantially worse than Dak Prescott and DeShaun Watson in their first appearances. There are a lot of empty calories in those yardage totals. Kyler is 21st in DYAR and 20th in QBR.

Dak's first two games
25-45 227 yards 0 tds/ 12 yards rushing

22-32 292 yards 0 tds/ 6 yards 1 td


Watson's first 2 games
(started the 2nd half of game 1)
12-23 102 yards 1td 1 int/ 16 yards rushing

15-24 125 yards/ 67 yards rushing 1 td run

Kyler's first 2 games
29-54 308 yards 2tds 1 int/ 13 yards rushing

25-40 349 yards 0 tds/ 4 yards rushing



I do NOT expect Kyler to finish with the high level efficiency Dak and Watson finished with though. They had some all time great QBR's for rookie seasons. However, in terms of initial appearances Kyler is not far and in fact exceeds them. I still don't expect Kyler to finish top 10 in QBR this year.


To be fair

Houston was picking in the 20s and traded up for Watson.

Dallas was 3-1 with Romo in 2015, he got injured and finished 4-12. Added Zeke to a team with legit playoff aspirations.


Kyler went to the worst team in football last year.

I'd be curious what his QBR is if you remove the 1st 3 Qrts. Kliff totally wasting preseason reps to get ready has hurt the team (I'd argue it has hurt the redzone opportunities as well). Romo getting hurt in preseason allowed for Dallas/Dak to really use him to get 1st team reps in


I don't expect the level of efficiency as Watson or Dak because they have better teams when its all said and done.

 

[kerouac9]

Wow. How intellectually dishonest on Watson, @SoonerLou

In his first two STARTS, Watson was 37/57 for 426 yards, 2 TDs, 2 INTs, with an additional 108 yards rushing and a TD. The Texans went 1-1 and had the worst defense in football that year.

 

[SoonerLou]

Wow. How intellectually dishonest on Watson, @SoonerLou

In his first two STARTS, Watson was 37/57 for 426 yards, 2 TDs, 2 INTs, with an additional 108 yards rushing and a TD. The Texans went 1-1 and had the worst defense in football that year.

Uh...You said in his first couple of appearances.

I noted in my post that he started the 2nd half of the game against the Jaguars.

That first half of the game against the Lions looked like a team that didn't practice their offense in live action at all. Can I dismiss the first half in favor of Kyler if we're not counting Watson's first game of actual play?

 

[Crimson Warrior]

The Cards lost. He hasn't beaten anyone.

His level of play is substantially worse than Dak Prescott and DeShaun Watson in their first appearances. There are a lot of empty calories in those yardage totals. Kyler is 21st in DYAR and 20th in QBR.

You know what I mean kerouac9.

 

[kerouac9]

Uh...You said in his first couple of appearances.

I noted in my post that he started the 2nd half of the game against the Jaguars.

That first half of the game against the Lions looked like a team that didn't practice their offense in live action at all. Can I dismiss the first half in favor of Kyler if we're not counting Watson's first game of actual play?

You can look at their two starts. Why wouldn't you?

 

[SoonerLou]

You can look at their two starts. Why wouldn't you?

I don't see the point in discounting his first actual game experience when he played an entire half, but thats fine.

STARTS
Watson = 37/57 for 426 yards, 2 TDs, 2 INTs/ 108 yards rushing and a TD
Murray = 54/94 for 657 yards 2 tds, 1 int/ 17 yards rushing

Just based on passer rating...

Watson 84.4
Murray 81.7


I'm not seeing substantially better if we're going off of just their first couple of starts either.

Again I don't think Murray will finish the season as strong as Watson did for his 6 starts that year. He was incredible from the Pats game on. However, first couple starts....Murray is not far off.

 

[kerouac9]

I don't see the point in discounting his first actual game experience when he played an entire half, but thats fine.

STARTS
Watson = 37/57 for 426 yards, 2 TDs, 2 INTs/ 108 yards rushing and a TD
Murray = 54/94 for 657 yards 2 tds, 1 int/ 17 yards rushing

Just based on passer rating...

Watson 84.4
Murray 81.7


I'm not seeing substantially better if we're going off of just their first couple of starts either.

Again I don't think Murray will finish the season as strong as Watson did for his 6 starts that year. He was incredible from the Pats game on. However, first couple starts....Murray is not far off.

Why wouldn't you consider the rushing? Watson had 80 yards more rushing plus a score. IMO, Murray's unwillingness(?) to rush is what's holding him and the offense back — especially near the goal line.

 

[Hoodhero]

We went from last years rookie QB been compared to Goff to this years been put up against Watson & Dak. Good times