Kyrie

[3rdside]

*good tall white guy.


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[pokerface]

Irving only makes sense to me if we get Porzingis too... that's a team that could contend. At least on paper. We probably would have to give every draft pick we got and maybe Chriss & Warren too (plus Bledsoe of course) but that would be worth it.

 

[GatorAZ]

http://valleyofthesuns.com/2017/07/27/the-3-team-dream-trade-for-the-phoenix-suns/amp/

Minor trade proposal.

Fanboy trade that doesn't work by NBA trade rules.

 

[Errntknght]

Irving only makes sense to me if we get Porzingis too... that's a team that could contend. At least on paper. We probably would have to give every draft pick we got and maybe Chriss & Warren too (plus Bledsoe of course) but that would be worth it.

What trade are you talking about? The dream-trade-for-phoenix-suns gives us Porzingis and spares us Kyrie.

For as complicated as it is, its a good trade all around - as long as NY really likes Kyrie. Bled and Chandler should boost Cleveland a bit. Along with Carmelo, I'd say it gives the Cavs a fighting chance, though there's always if's when you're plugging in three significant new parts.
NY won't realistically give up Porzingis unless they believe he'll persist in being unhappy and force his way out. That does not seem at all unlikely. Losing Carmelo has got to be a plus for them. The major incoming for them is Kyrie so they have to be excited about getting him or there'd be no reason for them to sign up. Warren's a good piece and they need draft picks to rebuild but they're really secondary considerations.

 

[Raindog]

Pretty sure any kind of trade that elaborate is an impossibility these days. Not to mention there is no way the Knicks would be moving Porzingis after firing Phil Jackson just to keep him happy. And even if they were willing to because they were that enamored of Irving, why not just trade him straight up to Cleveland? The Cavs would jump at that.

The major reason I am not crazy about trading for Irving is that all he would do here is get us back to being a marginal 8th spot contender, and picking in the middle of the first round in the draft. You aren't going to move the needle that way.

 

[Hoop Head]

http://valleyofthesuns.com/2017/07/27/the-3-team-dream-trade-for-the-phoenix-suns/amp/

Minor trade proposal.

I would do that trade but like others have said, there are too many pieces for that to happen. I still think a 3 team trade with Bledsoe going to Cleveland and Irving going to New York is probably the most likely scenario but I'm not 100% sold on Ntilikina being our PG of the future. If we got a pick in that trade then it'd be a no brainer for us but that makes it more complicated. It's a gamble but one I'd be willing to take because even if Ntilikina doesn't end up being PGOF we would get someone for Bledsoe before his contract is up. I highly doubt he stays in Phoenix and I don't think we should be looking to keep him then either because he just doesn't fit our timeline.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I would do that trade but like others have said, there are too many pieces for that to happen. I still think a 3 team trade with Bledsoe going to Cleveland and Irving going to New York is probably the most likely scenario but I'm not 100% sold on Ntilikina being our PG of the future. If we got a pick in that trade then it'd be a no brainer for us but that makes it more complicated. It's a gamble but one I'd be willing to take because even if Ntilikina doesn't end up being PGOF we would get someone for Bledsoe before his contract is up. I highly doubt he stays in Phoenix and I don't think we should be looking to keep him then either because he just doesn't fit our timeline.

Kyrie > Bledsoe
Bledsoe > Frank
So why do a trade like this?

I would rather just keep Bledsoe, even if we only have him two more years.

 

[Hoop Head]

Kyrie > Bledsoe
Bledsoe > Frank
So why do a trade like this?

I would rather just keep Bledsoe, even if we only have him two more years.

Because Frank may end up being a better PG for us than Bledsoe. It's not a sure thing but it's a possibility and it allows us to get something in return for Bledsoe instead of letting him walk for nothing in 2 years. I think Frank will be a decent NBA player but I'm not sure if he will be a PG throughout his career. He's 6'5 now and could grow more. He could be more of a SG as he develops.

 

[SirStefan32]

Kyrie > Bledsoe
Bledsoe > Frank
So why do a trade like this?

I would rather just keep Bledsoe, even if we only have him two more years.

I am not a Bledsoe fan, but I think you are spot on. I am not sold on Frank at all.

 

[Hoop Head]

Apparently the Clippers are willing to part with DeAndre Jordan and Patrick Beverly if it means acquiring Kyrie. I think if the Cavs are looking to win now that is their best option. I'm not sure the Suns could beat that offer, especially since we won't trade Jackson. I don't think we should trade Jackson for him though so I'm ok with sitting back. The only interest I had in a Kyrie trade was being the 3rd team in a deal.

https://cavsnation.com/report-clippers-willing-trade-deandre-jordan-patrick-beverley-kyrie-irving/

 

[Raze]

Right now Frank Ntilikina is an athletic 6-5 defender who can hit three's and is a pass first PG. Basically, he's a 3&D guy with good handles and passing skills. He's a very intriguing prospect.

• My biggest concern watching film was his lack of confidence on offense. He looked like a boy playing among men (which he was). Although he looked great in the Italy game.
• He's still thin, as is to be expected at his age. When he builds his strength he is going to be a VERY good defender.
• It is obvious he wants to be great at D. He doesn't lack confidence on this end of the court. He will almost always pick up his man full court and will hound you the whole way down. He needs to work on his footwork with quicker NBA guards, but he already has the athleticism to keep up.
• His shot has a wonkiness in the release, but it can be fixed. He shows a smooth stroke and follow through. I like his rhythm on catch and shoot. I think he'll end up being a very good shooter.
• BUT he doesn't have a whole lot of offensive scoring outside of hitting three's. He doesn't drive much or show a ton of mid range game. He certainly has the ability, but he just hasn't shown enough of it.
• He looks like a very good pass first PG though. He has good court vision and shows good in game IQ. Runs the pick and roll well. Always looking for teammates.
• He looks like a guy who players want to play with. He's very unselfish with the ball and will D up.

There's a reason he was taken top 10 in a great draft. I personally like Dennis Smith a lot more playing right now, but Frank has a scary good prognosis. You just have to wait 5 years to see if it comes to fruition. My optimistic 5 year ceiling is Frank becomes a 15ppg/10apg/5rpg with 2 spg and a solid 3pt FG%. He could land himself on an All D team. I see his 5 year floor as a good 3&D player that can initiate the offense if needed. I'm pretty sure he sticks around because of his D.

I really like Bledsoe and what he offers as a leader. I wouldn't trade him (+ others) for Kyrie, but I'd trade him for Frank (+ others). No way I'd trade Eric + Warren for Frank and a future 1st. The two of them should garner a higher yield than that.

 

[Phrazbit]

When I watched his scouting stuff he only looked "pass first" to the extent that he is a lousy shooter. The Knicks got killed for that pick on a lot of sites... I know he went top 10 in a deep draft but I gotta wonder if the Knicks had passed on him how much further the slips.

Personally, I think he is a washout. What I saw made him look like a bad shooter, with sloppy handles and marginal athletic ability. It is a lot to overcome.

 

[Hoop Head]

When I watched his scouting stuff he only looked "pass first" to the extent that he is a lousy shooter. The Knicks got killed for that pick on a lot of sites... I know he went top 10 in a deep draft but I gotta wonder if the Knicks had passed on him how much further the slips.

Personally, I think he is a washout. What I saw made him look like a bad shooter, with sloppy handles and marginal athletic ability. It is a lot to overcome.

It's way too soon to call him a bust, especially since he didn't play in Summer League so you're calling him a bust based on scouting information? There isn't anything else to go on.

If he didn't get taken by NY he still would have been a lottery pick. Dallas, Charlotte, Detroit, and Denver all picked guards at 9, 11, 12, and 13. I wouldn't say he's a lousy shooter either. Watching videos on Youtube he seems to be able to score in the lane really well with a nice floater and he has good mechanics on his outside shot. He's 6'5 with a 7' wingspan so even though he's skinny now he should be able to use his length to help him defensively.

The more I watch and read about him the more open to the idea of trading Bledsoe to bring him in. He fits our timeline better than Bledsoe and while using him and Ulis as our PG's this season will hurt us in terms of winning this year it should help us get another high draft pick to round out our core and then we'd able to forget about tanking for the next decade, hopefully.

 

[JCSunsfan]

When I watched his scouting stuff he only looked "pass first" to the extent that he is a lousy shooter. The Knicks got killed for that pick on a lot of sites... I know he went top 10 in a deep draft but I gotta wonder if the Knicks had passed on him how much further the slips.

Personally, I think he is a washout. What I saw made him look like a bad shooter, with sloppy handles and marginal athletic ability. It is a lot to overcome.

He looked slow to me.

 

[Phrazbit]

It's way too soon to call him a bust, especially since he didn't play in Summer League so you're calling him a bust based on scouting information? There isn't anything else to go on.

If he didn't get taken by NY he still would have been a lottery pick. Dallas, Charlotte, Detroit, and Denver all picked guards at 9, 11, 12, and 13. I wouldn't say he's a lousy shooter either. Watching videos on Youtube he seems to be able to score in the lane really well with a nice floater and he has good mechanics on his outside shot. He's 6'5 with a 7' wingspan so even though he's skinny now he should be able to use his length to help him defensively.

The more I watch and read about him the more open to the idea of trading Bledsoe to bring him in. He fits our timeline better than Bledsoe and while using him and Ulis as our PG's this season will hurt us in terms of winning this year it should help us get another high draft pick to round out our core and then we'd able to forget about tanking for the next decade, hopefully.

Obviously it is too soon, but other than his size he didn't appear to have anything to get too thrilled about.

I certainly don't see the same floor Raze does. If he is having trouble getting separation and penetrating in Europe then it will be almost impossible in the NBA. Combine that with a shot that is suspect and you've got a completely useless guard. Yes, too soon to call him a bust but if I had to wager I don't think he ever becomes a legit rotation player.

 

[thephoenixson28]

How would a lineup of
PG. Irving
SG.Booker
SF. Jackson
PF. Aldridge
C. Chandler

Fair against Golden State

 

[Raze]

Obviously it is too soon, but other than his size he didn't appear to have anything to get too thrilled about.

I certainly don't see the same floor Raze does. If he is having trouble getting separation and penetrating in Europe then it will be almost impossible in the NBA. Combine that with a shot that is suspect and you've got a completely useless guard. Yes, too soon to call him a bust but if I had to wager I don't think he ever becomes a legit rotation player.

There's no doubt I'm suggesting you have to look through the cracks to see his talent prognosis... offensively. But the kid did shoot 43% from 3's in 32 games (51 attempts). And he was tasked continuously by his coaches with shadowing the PG from line to line. Again, he was 18. And I didn't mention this before, but he's a team first guy. This isn't one of those "all about me" type of players. He's going to come in and do exactly what his coaches ask him to do. He already has a rep for being humble and professional.

A lot can be said of his 2016 U18 European Championship stats. In his last 3 games he averaged 23ppg, 5apg, 3.7rpg, 2.7spg, 1bpg, +/- 12, 14/20 from 3 (70%), and 9/9 on FT. No credible scout would base a huge portion of his evaluation on this alone, but he showed what he can do when the weight was on his shoulders. (He scored 31 in the championship and went 7/10 from 3's.)

In reference to his floor, if a team just wants him to be a 3&D he could be a legit rotation player. It certainly hinges on his ability to hit, but there's enough film to suggest he can. And, again, I can't stress this enough, this kid can play D. As Kingdad points out, a 7' wingspan on a 6'5 frame at 18 is something you don't want to ignore. And he may not be done growing. I spend very little time watching highlight films when I scout. I like watching full games. But one thing highlights are good for is getting a framework of overall athleticism. I see enough in those highlights combined with what I watched on film to suggest this kid is a very interesting prospect.

Next year I see him coming off the bench in a 3&D role. He can gradually be handed the reigns for the 2nd squad PG duties. In 3 years time he starts. Plus, he can play 1, 2, or 3 and he's willing to play any spot that helps the team win. He's an incredible compliment to ball dominant players. I'd love to see him learn next to Booker.

 

[SirStefan32]

How would a lineup of
PG. Irving
SG.Booker
SF. Jackson
PF. Aldridge
C. Chandler

Fair against Golden State

They would get swept by giving up 130 points per game.

 

[NashDishesDimes]

Kyrie > Bledsoe
Bledsoe > Frank
So why do a trade like this?

I would rather just keep Bledsoe, even if we only have him two more years.

Way oversimplification. Obviously the issue is Bledsoe is older and doesnt fit the timeline. He is also a more expensive contract. He has also reached his ceiling most likely.

 

[SirStefan32]

Oh my God, I am sick of this "timeline" crap! Just because someone is old enough to drink, doesn't mean they "do not fit the timeline." Good Lord, enough already!

 

[JCSunsfan]

Oh my God, I am sick of this "timeline" crap! Just because someone is old enough to drink, doesn't mean they "do not fit the timeline." Good Lord, enough already!

Good grief yes. Bledsoe has 6 years left easy. I think we would be able to resign him reasonably after what we have seen in free agency this year.

I do not mind going to Kyrie, he is an established player, but I have no interest in going for an unproven Euro rookie. There are just way too many unknowns.

Churning for younger and younger players is a treadmill in its own way.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Oh my God, I am sick of this "timeline" crap! Just because someone is old enough to drink, doesn't mean they "do not fit the timeline." Good Lord, enough already!

Old enough to drink implies 21. He's 27. A good 6-8 years beyond the current talent's time horizon. It makes a difference for a player like Bledsoe. If you were talking a 27 year old Chris paul that's another story. But in six years when our guys are in their prime Bledsoe will be 33 and likely not an impact player.

 

[Errntknght]

Good grief yes. Bledsoe has 6 years left easy. I think we would be able to resign him reasonably after what we have seen in free agency this year.

I do not mind going to Kyrie, he is an established player, but I have no interest in going for an unproven Euro rookie. There are just way too many unknowns.

Churning for younger and younger players is a treadmill in its own way.

Bledsoe is in the way here and now. He's far too much of an iso player to engender teamwork among the rest of the young guys, I'm not enamored of the Bled->Kyrie->Ntilikina trade but it does clear the way for Ulis to be the floor general this year. Heck, we'll probably need to have another PG on the team to back him up... maybe James will do or we might get Ish Smith or Tyler Ennis or...

If Ntilikina can truly defend in the NBA we might find a place for him on the wing - I've watched a few of his videos and he plays defense with intensity but I doubt he can guard NBA PGs - wings aren't so quick. What we're calling a 3 & D type player. His passing is pretty good and good passers at all positions is ideal.

My first preference would be to keep Bledsoe and make him the backup to Ulis - he'd be a good change of pace on offense and playing fewer minutes we might see him playing first rate defense again. A better coach might sort out the PG position quicker but Watson could keep on going down the same path for years without figuring it out - so moving Bledsoe is a necessity - and I won't miss having another round of negotiations with Rich Paul. I also think there's little doubt Bledsoe would be tickled pink to join Lebron.

 

[SirStefan32]

Old enough to drink implies 21. He's 27. A good 6-8 years beyond the current talent's time horizon. It makes a difference for a player like Bledsoe. If you were talking a 27 year old Chris paul that's another story. But in six years when our guys are in their prime Bledsoe will be 33 and likely not an impact player.

Sure, mot everyone is always in their prime at the same time. Concept of "prime" is also subjective. Is it 25-32, is it 27-33, is it something else? There is no precise, objective definition of "prime." I am not advocating for Bledsoe- everyone here knows I am not a fan, but this "prime" and "timeline" stuff is getting silly. There has never been a team made entirely of 24-28 years olds.
Hell, 2014/ 2015 Warriors had Iggy (finals MVP, mind you), Bogut, Lee, and, Barbosa- all in their 30s. Livingston was right there at 29 too. Hell, Thomson and Green may not have been considered to be "in their prime" as they were only 24.

Hell, last year they probably have more players in their 30s. When Miami won the last time, there was a bunch of players on their team who were over 30. Same thing with the Cavs. When Mavs won, they were loaded with 30-somethings. Kidd was 36 or 37, Marion was 32, Jason Terry and Peja Stojakovic were 33, etc.

This whole concept of a bunch of 24-28 year-old making up an entire team is a fantasy. Errntknght presented a good, logical, reasonable argument against Bledsoe. "He is not the same age as Booker, Jackson, Bender, Chriss" argument, on the other hand, is not even remotely logical or reasonable. It is a fantasy.

 

[SirStefan32]

Another thing- players in their prime earn more money. Let's say just three guys on the current roster work out and make $20M each. That leaves $40M-$50M for the rest of the roster. You have to have some veterans passed their prime in there, you need to have a youngster or two still on rookie deals, etc. Even in the perfect scenario- EVERYONE working out and becoming all stars. You can't keep them all.