Lakers = Yankees

[thegrahamcrackr]

I've already addressed this. I thought the Lakers were going to win next year's title anyway, and I said as much even before these signings were becoming reality.

Thats my bad then, I must have missed that. I guess that explains the difference in opinions though

 

[elindholm]

Thats my bad then, I must have missed that.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound hostile. I feel like it was just a few days ago, but I looked over some recent posts and can't find it. I know I posted it, but apparently it was longer ago than I thought.

Anyway, I think that a Lakers championship next season is about the surest thing that any of us are likely to witness in the four major sports for another ten or twenty years. Not only are they clearly the best team, but everyone knows that the league needs them to win. It's an unstoppable combination.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr


To me I see a lot of it as jealosy. Both the players have done enough in their careers that they deserve rings, they just were never able to get over the hump. Everyone knows that, but that doesnt change the fact that they still deserve the rings, and are willing to swallow their pride and hide their wallets to do it.

Kevin Johnson and Charles Barkley deserved rings, and they didn't latch on to a "sure thing" like Malone and Payton. What about John Stockton? Patrick Ewing?

Just what is your definition of "deserving rings"? I can name dozens of players that "deserved rings", but at least they had the integrity to not be a 3rd and 4th wheel and instead led by example, instead of grabbing onto coattails and holding on tight.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Originally posted by Renz
You are right in the sense that Payton and Malone's legacies would have been more complete if they had led Seattle and Utah to a championship. Unfortunately, that window has closed and the only shot they have to win it all is with another team.

I still say that Payton and Malone will earn their rings if the Lakers win it all. They won't win it from the bench like Mitch Richmond did.

And there will be no asterisk.

I agree.

At least Malone and Payton went to the Finals with their respective teams. It's not like they have never played at that level and are latching on for a ring. They've been there and lost, and now they have a chance to be a part of a team that comes away winning it all.

Everyone bagging on them is just a hater. It's purely the anti-Laker feelings talking. I wonder what the opinion of these two would be if they had gone to San Antonio or Sacramento...or Phoenix?

I remember that Clyde Drexler was synonomous with Portland, but I don't remember too many people griping when he joined Houston and won a ring... He had shots at a title in Portland but it didn't work out, so he went to the team with the best shot of winning the title (it's nothing new).

Remember the good ol' days when people said they wanted to see athletes go to a team for less money and a chance to win rather than play for much more money somewhere where they likely wouldn't win? Gee, it doesn't seem that long ago... :roll:

And an asterisk is ridiculous. The season will be 82 games long and have a full playoff schedule. And the Lakers have not won the title yet...and there is no guarantee that they will. Games are won on the court, not on paper. Shaq could go down with a season-ending injury, or Kobe, etc. Nothing is certain.

 

[green machine]

Originally posted by Brian in Mesa
I agree.

At least Malone and Payton went to the Finals with their respective teams. It's not like they have never played at that level and are latching on for a ring. They've been there and lost, and now they have a chance to be a part of a team that comes away winning it all.

Everyone bagging on them is just a hater. It's purely the anti-Laker feelings talking. I wonder what the opinion of these two would be if they had gone to San Antonio or Sacramento...or Phoenix?

I remember that Clyde Drexler was synonomous with Portland, but I don't remember too many people griping when he joined Houston and won a ring... He had shots at a title in Portland but it didn't work out, so he went to the team with the best shot of winning the title (it's nothing new).

Remember the good ol' days when people said they wanted to see athletes go to a team for less money and a chance to win rather than play for much more money somewhere where they likely wouldn't win? Gee, it doesn't seem that long ago... :roll:

And an asterisk is ridiculous. The season will be 82 games long and have a full playoff schedule. And the Lakers have not won the title yet...and there is no guarantee that they will. Games are won on the court, not on paper. Shaq could go down with a season-ending injury, or Kobe, etc. Nothing is certain.

I agree with you, I don't think this ruins their legacy. But one thing, about Clyde Drexler. He was traded to the Rockets, he didn't latch on as a free agent.

adam

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Kevin Johnson and Charles Barkley deserved rings, and they didn't latch on to a "sure thing" like Malone and Payton. What about John Stockton? Patrick Ewing?

Just what is your definition of "deserving rings"? I can name dozens of players that "deserved rings", but at least they had the integrity to not be a 3rd and 4th wheel and instead led by example, instead of grabbing onto coattails and holding on tight.

First, KJ would of if he could of, but was likely to injury-prone to continue his career. He chose to get away and work on his charities, etc. His choice.

Stockton has been saying he's done for a couple years now. He would rather retire than continue playing. Same with Ewing - he was done physically by the time he could have latched on somewhere else.

And Barkley? You must be kidding, right?

http://wildcat.arizona.edu//papers/90/1/28_1_m.html

Granted he was traded there, but he had a shot at getting back to the Finals by joining a team that had just won two in a row. When his time there was done - so was he.

Malone and Payton are not coming in with walkers and canes to ride the bench to a title or two. They are competitors and will contribute to the Lakers whether the Lakers win it all or not. The point is these guys are healthy enough and have the opportunity to join a team that will contend for a title. Other NBA stars were not fortunate enough to have been in the same situation as these two, or they would have done the same thing.

 

[Billythekid]

Actually Brian, KJ wouldn't have.

He had the opportunity to join Houston the year after he retired. I remember they were wanting a PG real bad and were courting KJ. I think they had Matt Maloney at the time,but KJ chose not to.

Instead he returned to the Suns in the 2000 season when we were crippled with injuries to help out the team he battled all those years with. In such an unloyal sporting environment such as the NBA, players and owners, KJ showed the ultimate in loyalty and showed what a legend of the game he is.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Originally posted by Billythekid
He had the opportunity to join Houston the year after he retired. I remember they were wanting a PG real bad and were courting KJ. I think they had Matt Maloney at the time, but KJ chose not to.

I said exactly that.

He chose not to.

KJ had the opportunity but decided to stay retired, or re-retired. He wanted to get away from basketball and decided to focus on his charities/school in Sacramento, etc.

He was asked how often he played ball, if at all, after his re-retirement, and said "I do not play basketball at all now, since we lost last year to Lakers in the second round of the playoffs. While I still love the game, I felt it was best for me to take a clean break from basketball for the next couple years. I don't get bit by the bug."

 

[Billythekid]

You said, if he could have, he would.

He could have, but didn't

(God I hate these little arguments that go no where)

KJ retired at the end of the 98 season then came back in 2000.

during the lock out season he was asked back. could've but didn't.

Chucksta on the other hand was a little different.

Anyone who says LA wasn't a shot at winning it all before GP and Malone joined is kidding themselves. They were struck down with injuries last year. With Phil, Shaq and Kobe and a bunch of role players they're always going to be the or near enough to, favourites IMO.

 

[schutd]

Originally posted by elindholm
I just don't see the glory of having someone else win your title for you. The great players lead their teams to titles. For all of the role players who are along for the ride, it's just a question of being in the right place at the right time.

I have never bought the argument that someone like Robert Horry is a great player because he happens to have been on five championship teams, and I never will. Basically, Malone is taking the Horry route to his title, and he'll still fall four rings short.

I dont know. As a great player, and I dont thnk anyone can argue that Payton and Malone aren't great players, you are expected to lead your team, sure. But you are also at the whim of management as to who you will be leading.

You can't knock Malone and Payton for not quite getting over the hump in the respectoive quests for titles, back in their prime, they both got close. Not eveyone wins a ring. Now, they are still competitive, still can contribute, and its painfully obvious The Jazz are getting young and wont compete for a title, and Payton wasnt getting anywhere NEAR the finals in Milwaukee.

Sure there may not be HUGE glory in riding others to the title, but at this stage in their careers, if it were me, I wouldnt bat an eye at the possibility of winning one, and playing with Shaq and Kobe.

 

[Renz]

Originally posted by Billythekid
Anyone who says LA wasn't a shot at winning it all before GP and Malone joined is kidding themselves. They were struck down with injuries last year. With Phil, Shaq and Kobe and a bunch of role players they're always going to be the or near enough to, favourites IMO.

You really believe that this line-up:

Kobe
Shaq
Fox
Fisher
George

would be favored to win the title next year? They didn't even get to the conference finals last year.

I think anyone who had that team winning it all is the one who is kidding himself.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Renz
You really believe that this line-up:

Kobe
Shaq
Fox
Fisher
George

would be favored to win the title next year? They didn't even get to the conference finals last year.

I think anyone who had that team winning it all is the one who is kidding himself.

Geez, what fantasy world do you live in? The Lakers won 3 in a row with a lineup not much different than that. Unless you're saying that Samakie Walker and Glen Rice made that lineup UNSTOPPABLE...

 

[Renz]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Geez, what fantasy world do you live in? The Lakers won 3 in a row with a lineup not much different than that. Unless you're saying that Samakie Walker and Glen Rice made that lineup UNSTOPPABLE...

Did they even come close to winning last year Mr. Rolleyes? Other teams were getting better and L.A. wasn't. Ever consider that?

 

[elindholm]

Sure there may not be HUGE glory in riding others to the title, but at this stage in their careers, if it were me, I wouldnt bat an eye at the possibility of winning one, and playing with Shaq and Kobe.

Just to clarify:

I'm not criticizing Payton and Malone for latching on. I think they should be encouraged to do whatever they want; they have certainly earned that right. I don't think it's "cheap" for them to get a title this way.

I just don't think it makes them better players.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Renz
Did they even come close to winning last year Mr. Rolleyes? Other teams were getting better and L.A. wasn't. Ever consider that?

Again, you have conveniently ignored what I said. But that's ok.

 

[schutd]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Kevin Johnson and Charles Barkley deserved rings, and they didn't latch on to a "sure thing" like Malone and Payton. What about John Stockton? Patrick Ewing?

Just what is your definition of "deserving rings"? I can name dozens of players that "deserved rings", but at least they had the integrity to not be a 3rd and 4th wheel and instead led by example, instead of grabbing onto coattails and holding on tight.

So your saying that Payton and Malone lack integrity? Because they're going after rings? with the best possible chance?

Look, if the Lakers dont sign Malone and Payton, they're NOT the favorites to win it next year. Now with them, they are. I dont see how you can honestly say, with that in mind, that both are just grabbing ahold and hanging on for the ring. Its their presence that pushed the Lakers back to the top. Are they the stars anymore? Nope. But so what?

It has nothing to do with integrity.

Youre essentially calling them sellouts. Thats ironic to me, when they could have made MILLIONS more staying with their respective teams.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by schutd


Youre essentially calling them sellouts. Thats ironic to me, when they could have made MILLIONS more staying with their respective teams.

You're putting words into my mouth, but that's ok. I like the fact that they are willing to take less money. But then again, they've already made millions and millions.

Michael Jordan signed with the Wizards for very little money--granted, he had a personal stake in the team... but he didn't sign with the Lakers, did he?

They just couldn't hack it on their own, so they latch on to the "sure thing". You can be a sellout without involving money. I just don't like giving as much credit as you do when they're already multi-millionaires anyway.

 

[SirStefan32]

What would be really funny is the Lakers getting eliminated in the first round.

 

[JJ Slim]

Originally posted by Brian in Mesa
I wonder what the opinion of these two would be if they had gone to San Antonio or Sacramento...or Phoenix?

I don't think most of us would have a problem with Payton but I suspect the Suns would have lost a lot of fans if they signed Malone. He is considered by most Suns fans to be Public Enemy #1.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by JJ Slim
I don't think most of us would have a problem with Payton but I suspect the Suns would have lost a lot of fans if they signed Malone. He is considered by most Suns fans to be Public Enemy #1.

Yep. I second that. Payton, I could handle. But Malone...

I still only give him a couple weeks before there's problems in the clubhouse...

 

[JJ Slim]

Originally posted by Renz
You really believe that this line-up:

Kobe
Shaq
Fox
Fisher
George

would be favored to win the title next year? They didn't even get to the conference finals last year.

I think anyone who had that team winning it all is the one who is kidding himself.

How about this lineup:

Kobe
Shaq
and anybody else.

That's a championship team right there. Stick three other starters with them and fill the bench and you've got a team favored to win it all.

 

[schutd]

Originally posted by Chaplin
You're putting words into my mouth, but that's ok. I like the fact that they are willing to take less money. But then again, they've already made millions and millions.

Michael Jordan signed with the Wizards for very little money--granted, he had a personal stake in the team... but he didn't sign with the Lakers, did he?

They just couldn't hack it on their own, so they latch on to the "sure thing". You can be a sellout without involving money. I just don't like giving as much credit as you do when they're already multi-millionaires anyway.

I know I brought it up, but I think you're reading too much into the importance of money. I didnt want that to be the predominant issue in my point. Its not a big deal here, so we agree, but you still said they lacked integrity for bailing for the Lakers, and I disagree with that entirely.

The Jordan analogy isnt a good one. He has 8 million rings. He stood to benefit financially in playing for the Wizards, and he was playing solely for competitive ego purposes.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Originally posted by JJ Slim
How about this lineup:

Kobe
Shaq
and anybody else.

That's a championship team right there. Stick three other starters with them and fill the bench and you've got a team favored to win it all.

I love it when people throw this into an argument.

Kobe, Shaq and anybody else didn't win last season.

Before Phil came to LA, Kobe, Shaq and anybody else didn't win a title either...

In the 3 seasons they did win it, they had huge games by various role players that helped tremendously. It wasn't all Shaq and Kobe all the time.

Shaq and Kobe haven't won it every season they've played together, not even half of the time. Just like Pippen and Jordan didn't win it every season they played together either.

Blanket statements like that are ridiculous.

Any team with Shaq and Kobe is a contender. The pieces you fit around them make it a championship team.

 

[Renz]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Again, you have conveniently ignored what I said. But that's ok.

Actually I didn't. You said that Shaq, Kobe and anyone else worked for three straight years. I agree. But you conveniently ignored what I said. Last year, the Lakers formula ran out of steam. They rode Shaq and Kobe for as long as they could and now they need an infusion of fresh talent to get back to the top.

Just because the Lakers won 3 titles in a row with a certain plan doesn't mean it will work forever.

 

[elindholm]

Last year, the Lakers formula ran out of steam.

That's because their "formula" has almost always included a ton of help from the officials. They didn't get it last season, and that's why they didn't win. Now they won't need it, but they would have gotten it anyway.