LB's

[artp]

The Cardinals need, and have needed, an intimidator at LB for a long time. IMO, the LB corp looks to be a good unit going in, but always disappoints.LB J Miller had one good yr and left. For the most part, the best Cardinal LB's the last few yrs were Frederickson and McKinnon. Both average at best. Thompson stepped up last year, and has to do it again. Everyone talks about DL and WR, but LB has been a very weak area. Someone has to step up this year. Its time for L Fisher to earn his respect.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by artp
The Cardinals need, and have needed, an intimidator at LB for a long time. IMO, the LB corp looks to be a good unit going in, but always disappoints.LB J Miller had one good yr and left. For the most part, the best Cardinal LB's the last few yrs were Frederickson and McKinnon. Both average at best. Thompson stepped up last year, and has to do it again. Everyone talks about DL and WR, but LB has been a very weak area. Someone has to step up this year. Its time for L Fisher to earn his respect.

See, I think at times Fredrickson and McKinnon were more than average. If McKinnon had a line that could actually keep Olineman off of him, he would be much better. We caught Fredrickson at the tail end of his career but he still was a pretty good player.

Ray Thompson and Levar Fisher both have the potential to be intimitadators, especially Fisher. Both have elite speed for linebackers and could develop into a pretty good tandem. Heck, If Hayes can become a bigger McKinnon, with more range, we will have an outstanding linebacking corps.

 

[artp]

My point also was that we say "if this and if that, we will have an outstanding LB corp" every year for that last decade. Right now, we have only 2 out of 3 starters and no depth.....proven. It seems like every year we have rookies that show potential, but two yrs later they are gone, replaced by two more, on and on for a decade. Other than McKinnon and Thompson, the Cardinals do not have one proven LB that they drafted or signed as RFA since Mckinnon, 8 yrs ago.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by artp
My point also was that we say "if this and if that, we will have an outstanding LB corp" every year for that last decade. Right now, we have only 2 out of 3 starters and no depth.....proven. It seems like every year we have rookies that show potential, but two yrs later they are gone, replaced by two more, on and on for a decade. Other than McKinnon and Thompson, the Cardinals do not have one proven LB that they drafted or signed as RFA since Mckinnon, 8 yrs ago.

2 out of 3 ain't bad, with like 7 other guys to fill the other spot.

IMO, the best linebacker on our roster is Levar Fisher. He has had some injury concerns, but if he can stay healthy he should be an impact linebacker.

By-the-way, many NFL teams have the same problem as we do. Our LB situation is a dream compared to some teams such as the Cleveland Browns. There is a "quantity of quality" problem with our LBs. IMO, Thompson, Fisher, McKinnon, Hayes, Darling, and Faulk are all pretty good linebackers. Young, Woods, Jones, and Gilbert are very good for "depth" players or special teamers.

 

[mdsisquo]

I really don't understand the basis for your argument artp. Our LB unit is the strongest part of our team, stronger than the o-line IMO. Thompson (could have been a pro-bowler last year) Mckinnon (IMO he is very very underated and with better DT's everyone around the leaue would know his name) Fisher (Has not been in the leauge long enough, but has showed very good promise) Woods (borderline starter) Young (Just a hair below Woods) Darling (Would start on most teams) and we won't get into the rooks. I think our LB's are strong and deff. the best part of our Defense.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by mdsisquo
I really don't understand the basis for your argument artp. Our LB unit is the strongest part of our team, stronger than the o-line IMO. Thompson (could have been a pro-bowler last year) Mckinnon (IMO he is very very underated and with better DT's everyone around the leaue would know his name) Fisher (Has not been in the leauge long enough, but has showed very good promise) Woods (borderline starter) Young (Just a hair below Woods) Darling (Would start on most teams) and we won't get into the rooks. I think our LB's are strong and deff. the best part of our Defense.

I agree 99%.

If our line could play half as well as our linebackers did last year, we would have a top 5 defense. Ray Thompson might have been our best player over the course of last season. I wouldn't exactly say he is a pro bowler, but he is pretty good.

 

[mdsisquo]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
IMO, the best linebacker on our roster is Levar Fisher.

How can you say this about a guy who has been in the leauge only one year and missed most of it at that? With Thompson coming off what could have been a pro-bowl year. I don't think Fisher is bad, I think he could be very very good, but I wouldn't even think of putting him ahead of Thompson at this time, who is far and away our best Backer.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by mdsisquo
How can you say this about a guy who has been in the leauge only one year and missed most of it at that? With Thompson coming off what could have been a pro-bowl year. I don't think Fisher is bad, I think he could be very very good, but I wouldn't even think of putting him ahead of Thompson at this time, who is far and away our best Backer.

I'm saying this from his college career. I'm from NC, so I watch all of the state teams (when I can).

But you are right, he hasn't played enough. It is still my belief that if he can stay healthy, he is our best LB.

 

[mdsisquo]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
I'm saying this from his college career. I'm from NC, so I watch all of the state teams (when I can).

But you are right, he hasn't played enough. It is still my belief that if he can stay healthy, he is our best LB.

OK, gotcha.

 

[artp]

No one can say that we have a proven LB besides McKinnon and Thompson. And, 2 out of 3 is bad. When you've had 10 yrs to find the third. We seem to always be 2 out of 3 with little depth. We can look at the guys we've got and imagine a quality unit. But, I need to see it before I believe it.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by artp
No one can say that we have a proven LB besides McKinnon and Thompson. And, 2 out of 3 is bad. When you've had 10 yrs to find the third. We seem to always be 2 out of 3 with little depth. We can look at the guys we've got and imagine a quality unit. But, I need to see it before I believe it.

Well that's nice.....I have seen the depth.

Levar Fisher, in limited appearances last year, showed that he had great speed for a backer. He also has above average instincts.

Le Var Woods, wasn't flashy, but is an effective player who helps in different packages and special teams.

James Darling is a proven player who has started at times, is a great locker room guy, and is a great special team (if not elite).

Michael Young is another good special teamer, who actually looked pretty good in his single start last year.

Gerald Hayes was an outstanding defender in college last year, probably one of the better overall defenders. He could be a starter for in a year or two.

Trev Faulk is another young guy that has a lot of talent. He could also figure in as a starter down the road.

Greg Jones has started in this league, and while not a great player, he is a decent player. He is actually a decent pass rusher and hasn't been fully utilized as such.

Thats depth if I've ever seen depth.....

 

[BIGDADDY_REDBIRD]

Ok I'm gonna have to side with Artp on this one. Imo LB's has been our weakest unit defensively for at least the last 3 years. Contrary to popular believe here, Ronald Mckinnon & Rob Frederickson have been our starters because of their knowledge of Maramie's weak read & react style defense. They're both smart veterans with limited athleticism. I'll get ripped for saying this but I think that if we had a more aggressive approach defensively players like Johnny Ruttledge , Levar Woods, Ray Thompson, Levar Fisher would have been our starters years ago. I'm still not convinced that johnnie Rutt can't play football. He had problems with Maramies schemes. His defense calls for alot of recognition, Gap assignments, & discipline. The downside to this is it does'nt emphasize the most important component to linebacking which is aggression. How many times while watching Cardinal games do we see our Linebackers make tackles for losses??? or tackles at the line of scrimmage for that matter??? hardly never. That does'nt make Rutt dumb either!!! I just think that we run a defense that is like Rocket Science , to players coming out of colleges that play attacking defensive football. Frankly I'm sick & tired of our boring style of defense. Let's start getting after people, physical football. This old saying still applies in football. "THE TEAM THAT HITS THE HARDEST WINS THE GAME"

 

[ajcardfan]

I've made it plain that I think Hayes is going to be a very good NFL player. I thought he was going to be a first rounder when I watched him play last year.

Darling has been a backup on the Eagles and the Jets. IMO, those two squads have had 2 of the top 3 LB corps the past couple of seasons.

The guy on the hot spot is McKinnon. He played the worst he's ever played the last half of last year. Signing Darling and starting him out at MLB, and drafting Hayes and Gilbert has put the whole unit on notice. I think McKinnon and the rest of the LB's will really step it up this year. What we couldn't do was stay status quo.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by ajcardfan
I've made it plain that I think Hayes is going to be a very good NFL player. I thought he was going to be a first rounder when I watched him play last year.

Darling has been a backup on the Eagles and the Jets. IMO, those two squads have had 2 of the top 3 LB corps the past couple of seasons.

The guy on the hot spot is McKinnon. He played the worst he's ever played the last half of last year. Signing Darling and starting him out at MLB, and drafting Hayes and Gilbert has put the whole unit on notice. I think McKinnon and the rest of the LB's will really step it up this year. What we couldn't do was stay status quo.

Good point Aj, but I still have to wonder if McKinnon would be much better with better tackle play in front of him.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by bigdaddy_redbird
Ok I'm gonna have to side with Artp on this one. Imo LB's has been our weakest unit defensively for at least the last 3 years. Contrary to popular believe here, Ronald Mckinnon & Rob Frederickson have been our starters because of their knowledge of Maramie's weak read & react style defense. They're both smart veterans with limited athleticism. I'll get ripped for saying this but I think that if we had a more aggressive approach defensively players like Johnny Ruttledge , Levar Woods, Ray Thompson, Levar Fisher would have been our starters years ago. I'm still not convinced that johnnie Rutt can't play football. He had problems with Maramies schemes. His defense calls for alot of recognition, Gap assignments, & discipline. The downside to this is it does'nt emphasize the most important component to linebacking which is aggression. How many times while watching Cardinal games do we see our Linebackers make tackles for losses??? or tackles at the line of scrimmage for that matter??? hardly never. That does'nt make Rutt dumb either!!! I just think that we run a defense that is like Rocket Science , to players coming out of colleges that play attacking defensive football. Frankly I'm sick & tired of our boring style of defense. Let's start getting after people, physical football. This old saying still applies in football. "THE TEAM THAT HITS THE HARDEST WINS THE GAME"

I agree that our scheme sucks, but to say that Rutledge would be good in any scheme is a stretch. The main knock on Rutledge is that he lacks instincts, and no system can cover that up.

Johnny Rutledge has been done for a long time, and I think that 31 other NFL teams agree since he isn't on anyones roster.

 

[BIGDADDY_REDBIRD]

hey Krang, I found it interesting that you knew Greg Jones was a good pass rusher. He's from here in Denver & was an all stater in HS. At CU he was a beast. I was hoping we would draft him out of college but the skins got him . He was never utilized effectively IMO with the skins. I wish we played to our players strengths. I know everyone has their thoughts on drafting Thomas Jones over Urlacher. But Urlacher in our weak, boring, defensive scheme could have bust written all over it as well what do ya do??????? I hope we have two new starters allong with Thompson this year. hopefully Darling, Jones, or Fisher. I'm excited that we've actually finally gotten some athletes with speed competing for spots. Alas no more Terry irving's Tony Mc Combs Zack Walz aging Mark Maddox as our staters. I know this is the same Defense that Mc Ginnis had when he was DC, at times we seemed to fly to the ball. Now with maramie we seem to get to the ball a step or two, too late!!!

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by bigdaddy_redbird
hey Krang, I found it interesting that you knew Greg Jones was a good pass rusher. He's from here in Denver & was an all stater in HS. At CU he was a beast. I was hoping we would draft him out of college but the skins got him . He was never utilized effectively IMO with the skins. I wish we played to our players strengths. I know everyone has their thoughts on drafting Thomas Jones over Urlacher. But Urlacher in our weak, boring, defensive scheme could have bust written all over it as well what do ya do??????? I hope we have two new starters allong with Thompson this year. hopefully Darling, Jones, or Fisher. I'm excited that we've actually finally gotten some athletes with speed competing for spots. Alas no more Terry irving's Tony Mc Combs Zack Walz aging Mark Maddox as our staters. I know this is the same Defense that Mc Ginnis had when he was DC, at times we seemed to fly to the ball. Now with maramie we seem to get to the ball a step or two, too late!!!

If I ever had to have an official religion, it would have to be Football!

I read a lot and I have a pretty good memory about players.

I agree, the Cards have done a poor job over the years in playing to our players strengths. Mac has been a little better than Tobin was, but he still isn't very good.

Another thing.....Tony McCombs was a tremendous athlete, but a terrible football player. The one thing that makes a linebacker better than the rest is instincts. If you ever read that a LB lacks instincts (in draft guides or whatever else) you don't draft them. Both Gilbert and Hayes actually have decent instincts.....

 

[CaptTurbo]

Re: Re: LB's

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
See, I think at times Fredrickson and McKinnon were more than average. If McKinnon had a line that could actually keep Olineman off of him, he would be much better. .

LMAO. What LB wouldnt be great if he never had to contend with Olinemen.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
I agree 99%.
Ray Thompson might have been our best player over the course of last season. I wouldn't exactly say he is a pro bowler, but he is pretty good.

I agree. Thompson is good enough to start on a superbowl team. Granted he would be 3rd string, he could still make the team. If our LB's were our greatest strength then we are far worse off then even I realise. You have effectively depressed me.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

WE could have had Urlacher.

We need an intimidating LB? Then we should have picked Urlacher instead of Crazy legs Jones!

I really really like Ronald McKinnon but he beginning the twightlight of his career and should be replaced. Thompson is going to be great. He IS the prototype for the new NFL LB. Strong, quick, and most importantly fast enough to cover a TE, or RB.

But I agree we need a stud at LB.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Where to get LB !?!?

Now where do we get a stud LB?

Florida: Any football gurus can add to this list but I know off the top of my head these guys came from Florida

Ray Lewis

Derrick Brooks

And they are intimidating!

 

[JeffGollin]

Our LB unit is the strongest part of our team, stronger than the o-line IMO. Thompson (could have been a pro-bowler last year) Mckinnon (IMO he is very very underated and with better DT's everyone around the leaue would know his name)
Don't get me wrong. I think Ray Thompson played well last year, McKinnon is gritty and Levar Fisher flashed some potential.

But I would not describe our LB unit as anywhere our strongest position, and in fact feel the team is in the same kind of denial about their LB's that we saw when James Dexter, Wolfie and Matt Joyce were the "stars" of our O-line.

Thompson played the way you expected a starting OLB to play in the NFL - no better/no worse. And the feeling I had watching him was more one of relief (that he was playing to the norm) than it was one of woo's and wows.

I've always considered Ronnie-Mac and Starkey to be similar - in that they could step in for an established starter and play surprisingly well. But dominant? Uh uh. And the old saw about "he'd play better if he were protected" is beginning to get old. The reality is that the Cards continue to do very little roster-wise to protect our MLB, so we'd better have someone in there good enough to play without "protection."

I think if Levar can remain healthy, he has the potential to become Pro Bowl material. But we all know about how po-tential is a coach's worst enemy.

I love the addition of both Hayes and Gilbert (They bring a bit more bulk and toughness inside) and Darling. And Woods and Young give us better depth at the position than most teams in the NFL.

It's a young unit with the potential to become one of the better ones - but with so many unproven or improving youngsters, you just never know how things will turn out.

I certainly wouldn't rate this unit "best unit" on the squad. More like a promising questionmark.

 

[Northern Card]

Perhaps one of the STATS freaks can post how well URLACHER did two years ago with stellar line play up front, and last year when it was a problem....

My sense is it will indicate that over the history of the game, every dominant linebacker has played off good D-line play....

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Northern Card
Perhaps one of the STATS freaks can post how well URLACHER did two years ago with stellar line play up front, and last year when it was a problem....

My sense is it will indicate that over the history of the game, every dominant linebacker has played off good D-line play....

Good post, and the fact is, Urlacher played much better with a healthy Ted Washington and Keith Traylor in front of him.

Ronnie Mac, is a good linebacker, but he will never be able to overcome his lack of athleticism. It will be nice if Hayes can assume his position within the next year or so, as Hayes is more like a traditional MLB.

 

[CaptTurbo]

It can be both ways. A great LB can make his Dlineman much better in the same way a good dline can make a LB look good as well.