LB's

[Cardinals.Ken]

Ok, perhaps I'm still hung over here, but...

Are we talking about "intimidating" linebackers, or "dominate" linebackers?

If it's "intimidating", then it's a useless debate, since it only matters in the press box whether or not someone is "intimidating", especially at the NFL level of play. If Urlacher could be called "intimidating" his first year, I would think his second would be called "invisible".

Intimidation means nothing without Domination...

 

[Northern Card]

Originally posted by swd1974
It can be both ways. A great LB can make his Dlineman much better in the same way a good dline can make a LB look good as well.

Ask a coach if he'd rather have dominant D-lineman or linebackers or a dominant o-line or running back....

 

[Wildman©]

It has been my experience that quality up front always offsets average LBers... quality LBers seldom offset average D-liners...

 

[Tangodnzr]

I am reposting a post I made back in March. How some of you can continue to talk about the "deficiencies" of Ron McKinnon just never ceases to amaze me. The bottom line is....he has been a consistant producer at his position for 5 years now, consistantly one of the top in the NFL. Who cares if he isn't protypical this or prototypical that??.....he gets the job done...CONSISTANTLY!!.
Like any player he has his own individual strengths and weaknesses. It has already been pointed out how Ulracher's production went down last year, when the line play in front of him deteriorated....that IS true for just about any LB.

And Mac's stat's didn't accrue because he is a stat freak, me first, type of player...just the opposite....he's the consumate team player.

Some of the posts on this thread denigrating and/or dissing our linebacking corps, and McKinnon, in particular.....smell to me of lack of knowledge or perception in regard to the matter, and/or simply some of the same old negative oriented kibitzers who complain, no matter what.





Tangodnzr
Pro Bowler

I just did some checking, the stats I found only went back 3 years but show this:

Last year McKinnon was 9th in the NFC in tackles with 108. Urlacher led with 152.

2001: McKinnon led the NFC with 147 tackles, he was 3rd in the NFL behind Ray Lewis and I believe Zach Thomas.

2000: Again McKinnon led the NFC with 157 tackles and was 2nd in the NFL.

These are not the stats of a bum. McKinnon has given this team 5 solid years of consistancy. I don't think that should be belittled, and I don't think he is as much of a liability as some of you seem to insinuate.

There's a lot of things that need fixing on this team before replacing Ron McKinnon.

March 18th, 2003 02:58 PM
...and my 2 cents in regard to the debate about whether the linebackers are the strongest or best part of the defense: If we say the defense is essentially broken down to 3 areas....DefensiveLine, Linebackers, Defensive Backs, I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to say that the last couple or three years the Linebackers may be the best. They certainly aren't the over-riding weak link.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
I am reposting a post I made back in March. How some of you can continue to talk about the "deficiencies" of Ron McKinnon just never ceases to amaze me. The bottom line is....he has been a consistant producer at his position for 5 years now, consistantly one of the top in the NFL. Who cares if he isn't protypical this or prototypical that??.....he gets the job done...CONSISTANTLY!!.
Like any player he has his own individual strengths and weaknesses. It has already been pointed out how Ulracher's production went down last year, when the line play in front of him deteriorated....that IS true for just about any LB.

And Mac's stat's didn't accrue because he is a stat freak, me first, type of player...just the opposite....he's the conumate team player.

Some of the posts on this thread denigrating and/or dissing our linebacking corps, and McKinnon, in particular.....smell to me of lack of knowledge or perception in regard to the matter, and/or simply some of the same old negative oriented kibitzers who complain, no matter what.





Tangodnzr
Pro Bowler

I just did some checking, the stats I found only went back 3 years but show this:

Last year McKinnon was 9th in the NFC in tackles with 108. Urlacher led with 152.

2001: McKinnon led the NFC with 147 tackles, he was 3rd in the NFL behind Ray Lewis and I believe Zach Thomas.

2000: Again McKinnon led the NFC with 157 tackles and was 2nd in the NFL.

These are not the stats of a bum. McKinnon has given this team 5 solid years of consistancy. I don't think that should be belittled, and I don't think he is as much of a liability as some of you seem to insinuate.

There's a lot of things that need fixing on this team before replacing Ron McKinnon.

March 18th, 2003 02:58 PM
...and my 2 cents in regard to the debate about whether the linebackers are the strongest or best part of the defense: If we say the defense is essentially broken down to 3 areas....DefensiveLine, Linebackers, Defensive Backs, I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to say that the last couple or three years the Linebackers may be the best. They certainly aren't the over-riding weak link.

Good post Tango, and I think some people will really miss McKinnon years from now.

I don't hold him in as high esteem as you do, but I do think he is a pretty good player, surrounded by crappy talent upfront.

The only LB in the game that is good enough to overcome and dominate with poor lineplay in front is Ray Lewis, which was something he showed last year after everyone thought he was going to not be as good in a 3-4 with a weak dline.

 

[CardinalChris]

An interesting arguement is brought up......

I have thought that Marmie and MCGinnis have done a better job than the talent they have to use would indicate.... However, when we supposedly had above average talent, I was less than impressed with the results. These guys seem to be better at holding a defense to gether with "band aids and bubble gum" than making player step up above their talent. They use gimmicks and tricks to hold the team together.

This year could be interesting... the more parts you have, the easier it is for a coach who can invent and scheme fairly well, like McGinnis to confuse offenses. Our depth may play to their abilities, or at least make the defense as a whole, better than the indiviual parts.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Don't get me wrong Krang, I don't think McKinnon is the "end all to everything", or anything like that.

Sure, I'd personally like to see another Eric Hill type.....a little taller, a little more speed, etc.....but the fact remains McKinnon has been consistantly one of, if not THE, leading tackler in the conferance and league.

Yet people continue to talk like he's some sort of second rate player.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
Don't get me wrong Krang, I don't think McKinnon is the "end all to everything", or anything like that.

Sure, I'd personally like to see another Eric Hill type.....a little taller, a little more speed, etc.....but the fact remains McKinnon has been consistantly one of, if not THE, leading tackler in the conferance and league.

Yet people continue to talk like he's some sort of second rate player.

On that note.....I totally agree!

 

[CaptTurbo]

Originally posted by Northern Card
Ask a coach if he'd rather have dominant D-lineman or linebackers or a dominant o-line or running back....

What did that have to do with my quote if I may ask? lol

 

[CaptTurbo]

Originally posted by Wildman©
It has been my experience that quality up front always offsets average LBers... quality LBers seldom offset average D-liners...

From experience I agree with the first...Disagree with the second.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by swd1974
What did that have to do with my quote if I may ask? lol

I was wondering the same thing!

But to reply to your statement......if ask any defensive coach, he would tell you that a dominant defensive line can cover up average linebackers, but dominant linebackers can't cover up an average defensive line.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
Don't get me wrong Krang, I don't think McKinnon is the "end all to everything", or anything like that.

Sure, I'd personally like to see another Eric Hill type.....a little taller, a little more speed, etc.....but the fact remains McKinnon has been consistantly one of, if not THE, leading tackler in the conferance and league.

Yet people continue to talk like he's some sort of second rate player.

I think the difference is with Urlacher or Lewis or Seau when they have little help up front they still manage to get the RB at the line of scrimmage. I bet you could count the number of times on your hands and toes that Mac came up to the line and squashed a rb right there and planted him. Usually its 5-10 yards downfield and he was being dragged for about 4 of them. A great back up LB for any superbowl team yes, or even a starter if he is surrounded by huge talent. But alone he is not the man.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
I was wondering the same thing!

hehe

[But to reply to your statement......if ask any defensive coach, he would tell you that a dominant defensive line can cover up average linebackers, but dominant linebackers can't cover up an average defensive line.

Your probably right Krang I still say though they can. Seau did it for years. But i guess when the LB's cover up a poor line they have to be UBER LB's

 

[Wildman©]

swd1974:
Obviously, your "average D-liners" were better than mine...

 

[Tangodnzr]

Originally posted by swd1974
I think the difference is with Urlacher or Lewis or Seau when they have little help up front they still manage to get the RB at the line of scrimmage. I bet you could count the number of times on your hands and toes that Mac came up to the line and squashed a rb right there and planted him. Usually its 5-10 yards downfield and he was being dragged for about 4 of them. A great back up LB for any superbowl team yes, or even a starter if he is surrounded by huge talent. But alone he is not the man.

Since when is football a one man game? Superbowls are won by Ray Lewis's or Urlachers or Seau's. They are one by TEAMS.
Yes it's nice to have a Lewis or Urlacher.... I wish Eric Hill were still here, but it takes a whole lot more than 1 dominant player to give the overall defense top level success.

Notice I also didn't include Seau with Lewis and Urlacher. Seau is a great talent, has made a ton of highlight plays, and put up some nice stats at times......by not being a team player and ultimately lessening the effect of the total defense with his "me first", "look at what a great player I am" play.

Also its kind of hard to tackle RB's for no gain, " at the line" of scrimmage", when off the snap, the line of scrimmage is suddenly 3-4 yds downfield.

 

[CardinalChris]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
Since when is football a one man game? Superbowls are won by Ray Lewis's or Urlachers or Seau's. They are one by TEAMS.
Yes it's nice to have a Lewis or Urlacher.... I wish Eric Hill were still here, but it takes a whole lot more than 1 dominant player to give the overall defense top level success.

But you do need a "difference maker" on offense and one on defense. Usually on defense they need to be in the front seven and at the skill positions on offense. A guy who can change a game, and who teams have to scheme against. ranted, that greatness can be nullified by poor supporting casts, so both team and stars are important.

Right now we don't have that on defense. A couple of twinkles, but no glaring star. It could be interesting.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Originally posted by CardinalChris
An interesting arguement is brought up......

I have thought that Marmie and MCGinnis have done a better job than the talent they have to use would indicate.... However, when we supposedly had above average talent, I was less than impressed with the results. These guys seem to be better at holding a defense to gether with "band aids and bubble gum" than making player step up above their talent. They use gimmicks and tricks to hold the team together.

This year could be interesting... the more parts you have, the easier it is for a coach who can invent and scheme fairly well, like McGinnis to confuse offenses. Our depth may play to their abilities, or at least make the defense as a whole, better than the indiviual parts.

I totally agree Chris.
Also, I think Jeff Fitzgerald is a helluva LB coach. It is my opinion that he had a lot to do with the "blossoming" of Thompson last year. I think he could possibly become the Jerry Sullivan of linebackers coaches, and with the young talent on this team, look to see some steady improvement in these guys.
As you pointed out "scheming" can be used (and often is) to cover for lack of talent.
When Mac took over here, this team lacked talent in SO, SO many places....and you can't fix it all at once. Now the talent base is beginning to improve. That alone will also make the coaches look smarter and their "schemes" more consistantly effective when they do run them.
I worked for Arthur Murray's for 25 years, and Arthur Murray, one of the great businessmen in modern American business was always fond of saying:
"If you take a doh doh and train him, all you end up with is a trained doh doh." ....or as the old saw goes: "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear."

 

[BIGDADDY_REDBIRD]

Blame it on our scheme....weak & boring. Your not gonna tackle people for losses, or at the line of scrimmage if your not allowed to be aggressive. I remember 1 tackle behind the line by a LB all season & that was Ray Thompson on Clinton Portis. Beautiful 1 on 1 tackle that if he had missed Portis might have gain 20 or more. It's almost like our players both D line & LB's are more concerned with gap assignments than filling holes. We basically play zone defense for 4 quarters. Where I come from, when the ball is snapped players are taught to penetrate the line of scrimmage. But with us when the ball is snapped we contain our area???? This is classic scared man's Defense. We won't ever win a championship with this 4-3 scheme I don't care how much talent we have on the field.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
Since when is football a one man game? Superbowls are won by Ray Lewis's or Urlachers or Seau's. They are one by TEAMS.
Yes it's nice to have a Lewis or Urlacher.... I wish Eric Hill were still here, but it takes a whole lot more than 1 dominant player to give the overall defense top level success.

Obviously you didnt bother to read the whole topic of discussion. We were narrowing our view to a few positions. Does everyone on this board just storm out looking for a fight at every post? How did New get banned but there are 4-5 other jokers on here DYING to argue with someone.

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
Notice I also didn't include Seau with Lewis and Urlacher. Seau is a great talent, has made a ton of highlight plays, and put up some nice stats at times......by not being a team player and ultimately lessening the effect of the total defense with his "me first", "look at what a great player I am" play.

Oh my bad, your not just looking for a fight your just an imbescile lol

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
Also its kind of hard to tackle RB's for no gain, " at the line" of scrimmage", when off the snap, the line of scrimmage is suddenly 3-4 yds downfield.

hmm interesting bet, lets play a dollar a play. you get 1 dollar for every play you can put on video tape of our dline 4 yards down field after the snap. And I earn one for every play they did not fall back 4 yards. Id like to retire now. They may be bad but they are NFL'ers. You wont see any NFL line back 4 yards the majority of the plays. That is just ignorance talking. if you dont like some players thats one thing but why lie?

 

[CaptTurbo]

Originally posted by CardinalChris
But you do need a "difference maker" on offense and one on defense. Usually on defense they need to be in the front seven and at the skill positions on offense. A guy who can change a game, and who teams have to scheme against. ranted, that greatness can be nullified by poor supporting casts, so both team and stars are important.

Right now we don't have that on defense. A couple of twinkles, but no glaring star. It could be interesting.

Great post Chris.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
I totally agree Chris.
Also, I think Jeff Fitzgerald is a helluva LB coach.

Me too. One question though, How is Joe Greene still employed? Does his name alone carry him this far?

 

[CaptTurbo]

Originally posted by bigdaddy_redbird
Blame it on our scheme....weak & boring. Your not gonna tackle people for losses, or at the line of scrimmage if your not allowed to be aggressive. I remember 1 tackle behind the line by a LB all season & that was Ray Thompson on Clinton Portis. Beautiful 1 on 1 tackle that if he had missed Portis might have gain 20 or more. It's almost like our players both D line & LB's are more concerned with gap assignments than filling holes. We basically play zone defense for 4 quarters. Where I come from, when the ball is snapped players are taught to penetrate the line of scrimmage. But with us when the ball is snapped we contain our area???? This is classis scared man's Defense. We won't ever win a championship with this 4-3 scheme I don't care how much talent we have on the field.

Here is a man that knows his football. Awesome post, couldnt be more on target. My point with Mac though is even given the go ahead he would look like a lost alter boy in a room full of priests, bounced around from one guy to the next. I always thought he was built to be a great OLB but he never di well out there.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Originally posted by bigdaddy_redbird
Blame it on our scheme....weak & boring. Your not gonna tackle people for losses, or at the line of scrimmage if your not allowed to be aggressive. I remember 1 tackle behind the line by a LB all season & that was Ray Thompson on Clinton Portis. Beautiful 1 on 1 tackle that if he had missed Portis might have gain 20 or more. It's almost like our players both D line & LB's are more concerned with gap assignments than filling holes. We basically play zone defense for 4 quarters. Where I come from, when the ball is snapped players are taught to penetrate the line of scrimmage. But with us when the ball is snapped we contain our area???? This is classis scared man's Defense. We won't ever win a championship with this 4-3 scheme I don't care how much talent we have on the field.

I think that you may be over looking a couple of things with some of these comments. I think it's pretty much generally conceded that the main problem with the Cardinal defense last year was lack of talent. Initially Marmie and the coaches tried to compensate for that with some "gimmick-like" scheming. But the novelty and surprise element gained there soon had other teams adjusting accordingly.
So as a coach, at that point, what do you do? You can't just instantly crytallize a new infusion of talent. You can only make do with what you have.
The majority of the team was young and inexperienced....I know if I'm the coach, I'm probably then going to tend to stick more to basics, a little more conservative.
You call it a "scared man's defense"...well, when you don't have the talent to be effectively aggressive what are you going to do?
Send those young players to the wolves? Turn them loose and watch as they get consistantly torched and their asses burned and teams run amok on them....not instilling any discipline?

People can, and most likely will, always debate whether one specific philosophy is better than another. I don't think any particular one is THE answer.

You say you don't think this scheme would work regardless of talent. I can't agree with that simply because I feel the scheme that was primarily used was a result of the talent the team did possess at the time. Change the talent and you change the scheme.

 

[BIGDADDY_REDBIRD]

SWD1974 THANKS ALOT!!!! MY THINKING IS WE'RE LOSING ANYWAY, WHY NOT TURN THE KIDS LOOSE & KNOCK THE $HIT OUT OF SOME PEOPLE. SOMEONE POSTED THAT WE HAD TO PLAY ZONE TO COVER UP OUR WEAKNESSES GREAT COVER UP... WE LOOKED WEAKER THAN A STICK OF BUTTER IN THE DESERT. UNTIL WE GET A AGGRESSIVE APPROACH ON DEFENSE, WE'LL ALWAYS BE WEAK....

 

[Wildman©]

Fitzgerald may be a helluva LB coach but, IMO, COMPETITION had the most impact on Ray Thompson's improved play. I said as much before the season started last year. I also predict that LB play will greatly improve this year...