LB's

[BIGDADDY_REDBIRD]

Sorry TANGO, we must have been posting at the same time. I don't really buy the little experience argument. These kids have played football for most of their lives. It's crazy to say that we don't have talent. Why are we drafting theses untalented kids? Football is fundamental running, blocking & tackling. Sure there's learning curves for offensive skilled position players, but defense is ,on the job training. The one thing that supports your take is over pursuing by young players, but they learn through experiences. teaching a scheme is harder than teaching Aggression. If you have Aggression you can teach the scheme. But it seems that we're teaching agressive kids out of college, to not be aggressive. That's Counter productive, & the reason we're dead last in nearly every statistical defensive category .

 

[Reddog]

Where woyuld Derrick Rodgers fit into our LB discussion?

 

[Tangodnzr]

Originally posted by Wildman©
Fitzgerald may be a helluva LB coach but, IMO, COMPETITION had the most impact on Ray Thompson's improved play. I said as much before the season started last year. I also predict that LB play will greatly improve this year...

I can't disagree with that. However, some people here seem to either have a concerted lack of knowledge of the actual dynamics of this team in recent history, or very poor memories.

Last year was Thompson's 3'rd. Going into the start of the season a LOT of people were ragging on him and calling him a total bust. Additional common comments, like "too small", "can't do this...can't do that." "ineffective"...etc.

I think his "blossoming", as with most things was not just a simple matter of just one thing.
The fact remains the normal growth curve expected for young players at most positions, like LB, are that they are not really expected to start totally putting things together till their 3rd year.

Last year was Fitzgerald's 2nd as linebacker coach, after Mac replaced Glenn Pires with him to begin the 2001 season. (Mac's first full season).

Yes, the competition most likely was a big contrubuting factor too.
(although I'm not totally sure exactly what you meant by competition? ....just playing?...or having to "compete" for his spot?)
I'm assuming game experience as game competition.

I totally agree with you that I expect even more this year , as the experience factor further grows in both individual players, team "chemistry", and Fitsgeralds coaching too.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr

You call it a "scared man's defense"...well, when you don't have the talent to be effectively aggressive what are you going to do?
Send those young players to the wolves? Turn them loose and watch as they get consistantly torched and their asses burned and teams run amok on them....not instilling any discipline?

Isn't this what happened anyway? Did we have a close game to end the season? Hell, we couldn't get to McNabb and he was hobbling around on a broken ankle, and look how well the "zone" schemes worked out for us then.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Not only is the Mac/Marmie system not exciting for fans (as fun as four yards a carry and 10 minute drives by opposition to open haves are), but it obviously isn't very effective at preventing opponents for scoring points.

 

[BIGDADDY_REDBIRD]

My points exactly kerouac9 Tango , Wildman's remark about competition was Thompson Knew Fisher was drafted to play his position, which is why he became more focused, & turned in his best season as a pro.

 

[CardinalChris]

Would anybody else like to see Thompson and Fisher blitz more? Pick your spots, but 5-7 times a game send one of them.... and not just on passing downs. I think it could add to our defense.

 

[Wildman©]

Tangodnzr:
Competition for playing time... having to perform in practice because someone is breathing down your neck... quality depth... It has been my experience that competition in practice directly corelates with being competitive during the game... I see the competition for a starting LB spot as being very hot this year...

 

[CardinalChris]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Isn't this what happened anyway? Did we have a close game to end the season? Hell, we couldn't get to McNabb and he was hobbling around on a broken ankle, and look how well the "zone" schemes worked out for us then.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Not only is the Mac/Marmie system not exciting for fans (as fun as four yards a carry and 10 minute drives by opposition to open haves are), but it obviously isn't very effective at preventing opponents for scoring points.

I love this...... I think our safe approach is important, because of the lack of talent in the past. BUT, I also think on occassion you have to confuse an offense and do the unexpected. Gotta put that fear in the back of their mind or their confidence will carry them to a win in the 4th quarter.

 

[Jim O]

Originally posted by bigdaddy_redbird
I remember 1 tackle behind the line by a LB all season & that was Ray Thompson on Clinton Portis.

Tackles for loss:

Thompson: 7
McKinnon: 4
Fredrickson: 3

 

[CaptTurbo]

Originally posted by bigdaddy_redbird
SWD1974 THANKS ALOT!!!! MY THINKING IS WE'RE LOSING ANYWAY, WHY NOT TURN THE KIDS LOOSE & KNOCK THE $HIT OUT OF SOME PEOPLE. SOMEONE POSTED THAT WE HAD TO PLAY ZONE TO COVER UP OUR WEAKNESSES GREAT COVER UP... WE LOOKED WEAKER THAN A STICK OF BUTTER IN THE DESERT. UNTIL WE GET A AGGRESSIVE APPROACH ON DEFENSE, WE'LL ALWAYS BE WEAK....

Tell me about it, I remember a few games where we had the tinyest of leads only to let the other team go 80+ yards in 3-6 plays with that awfule dime zone or nickel zone, some sort of inbreeding of the two I think lol

 

[CaptTurbo]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr

I think his "blossoming", as with most things was not just a simple matter of just one thing.
The fact remains the normal growth curve expected for young players at most positions, like LB, are that they are not really expected to start totally putting things together till their 3rd year.

I cant argue with your logic tango, and I do not presume to study each game and break it down afterwards. I have not missed a cards game in 5 years, I missed them before that beause I was in the military for 8 crawling over all of God's creationg and back. BUT, I do not have 1 single play in my mind where I said or thought to myself. Damn! What a play who was that? To be honest I can hardly rmember Thompson on the field at all. I may rag on Ronnie Mac but at least I see him in the game.

 

[BIGDADDY_REDBIRD]

JIM O , I was'nt counting the plays where the ball carrier looses his footing & the first person to him touches him for down by contact. I talking about tackles...... just kidding trust me there were'nt many

 

[Tangodnzr]

Originally posted by bigdaddy_redbird
Sorry TANGO, we must have been posting at the same time. I don't really buy the little experience argument. These kids have played football for most of their lives. It's crazy to say that we don't have talent. Why are we drafting theses untalented kids? Football is fundamental running, blocking & tackling. Sure there's learning curves for offensive skilled position players, but defense is ,on the job training. The one thing that supports your take is over pursuing by young players, but they learn through experiences. teaching a scheme is harder than teaching Aggression. If you have Aggression you can teach the scheme. But it seems that we're teaching agressive kids out of college, to not be aggressive. That's Counter productive, & the reason we're dead last in nearly every statistical defensive category .

I don't think it's crazy to say we didn't have talent. There are indeed undeniable physical (and mental) skills that some players inately and biologically possess...Size, Speed, Athleticism, Mobility, Intelligence, etc, etc, etc.

Yes it's true that most players have been playing since childhood, but not all. (perfect example = Michael Stone...that's why I don't write him off just yet, like most have). Just to make it to the pro's means a player has to indeed have a pretty high talent level.
But are you going to tell me that grade school, Pop Warner, high school, and even college play is anywhere near the level needed to be a successful Pro? C'mon......It all become's "relative" at the Pro level.

When I say the team lacked talent....to avoid semantics here, I simply mean that in relation to the talent/experience they faced they were generally and for the most part, outmanned. And even great "raw" talent in a young player is not generally good enough to be a consistant success in the NFL. That talent needs honed with discipline and experience and knowledge. How many Rookie linebackers ever make all pro?
Or even in their 2nd year?

Obviously you do comprehend that one of the most common mistakes made by young players is over aggressiveness.

A player who is not very aggressive in this league surely isn't going to last long or have very much real success.

And like I said, I tend to think, at this point, that the primary defensive schemes used were a result of the talent and experience level that did exist.

Marmie and Mac have historically been known as more innovative and creative than they have as being conservative.

There were times when I saw what I perceived to be only 3 man rushes on passing downs and I wondered...WTF?

But if you notice the last 2-3 games the team did start getting a little more aggressive. DJ, Bryant, Bell, and Davis, are one's I specifically noticed in watching game tape. Not consistant...but the flashes were there.

So I say this year....look for more aggressive "scheming" , additionally look for the players themselves to start becoming more aggressive simply because they are more experienced to NFL caliber play...and the "relative talent" level to be more up to that of its competition.

 

[SECTION 11]

How about making a run at Al Wilson next year if he doesn't get tagged.

Fisher, Wilson, Thompson?

That's an upgrade.

 

[BIGDADDY_REDBIRD]

That's 2 tennessee Vols & 1 NC State wolf pack looks good on paper...... Al wilson comes from Denver where they attack people. If we don't change our strategy it could mean that he, or any Normally productive FA LB would come here and not be nearly as productive... I suppose I could be wrong & someone would come here & lead the league in tackles & make us a top 5 defensive unit. But i doubt it !!!!!

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
How about making a run at Al Wilson next year if he doesn't get tagged.

Fisher, Wilson, Thompson?

That's an upgrade.

To be honest it wouldn't be worth it.

Teams can always find quality linebackers later in the draft. I kind of follow the Dallas Cowboys (under Jimmy Johnson) belief that linebackers are a dime a dozen and the easiest to fill since a team uses so many roster spots.

I am always againt using a top pick on a middle backer, though there have been a few (like Urlacher or Ray Lewis) that are so versatile that they make the entire defense better. But of course, there are only about 3 backers of that quality (the above two and Keith Brooking).