Lebron to Suns Trade that Makes Sense (but would never, ever happen)

[elindholm]

Can you name another time that the best player in basketball made in the finals and didn't perform for most of the series?? Even if you can..it's very rare.

I think the more tangible question would be, when was the last time that the reigning league MVP was held to 2/3 of his scoring average throughout whatever playoff series resulted in his team being eliminated? My guess is, never.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Good gravy. I put this thread where it belongs.

 

[AzStevenCal]

People said at the start of his career that Jordan didn't have a complete game and was nothing more then a glorified scorer. Nobody was calling him the best player in the league at that point in his career and the Bulls were not contending. Bird at that time even mentioned how Jordan had to change his game.

In contrast everybody was already saying LeBron was the best player in the league and his team was already contending.

So, when I made my statement, I was making it comparing the junctions in their careers where both were considered "the best" and both were on contending teams.

Nobody was saying that about Jordan like they are LeBron at similar stages in their careers.



I agree one hell of a series by Dallas. That doesn't excuse the poor outing by a player that was almost universally considered the best player in basketball. Can you name another time that the best player in basketball made in the finals and didn't perform for most of the series?? Even if you can..it's very rare.

You state that as if it were categorically true and that just isn't so. There were plenty of people jumping onto and off of the "Michael Jordan is the greatest player in the game" before they won their first championship.

As for Lebron James, yes there have been a lot of people labeling him as the best ever and that started while he was still in high school. And yes, he has failed to deliver on that promise. However, that's really at the heart of this discussion. His career is not yet over and he's not the first GREAT player to have come up short.

His 4th quarter disappearances against Dallas are certainly a bleak mark on his record but he has stepped up in the past and I'm quite certain he will again in the future. I don't think he will ever be the greatest closer in the game but he's still one of the best in the game right now and he'll likely have plenty of opportunities to enter the best ever conversation in the future.

Steve

 

[Matt L]

How does this trade make sense?

Miami would be getting worse next season with that trade

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think the more tangible question would be, when was the last time that the reigning league MVP was held to 2/3 of his scoring average throughout whatever playoff series resulted in his team being eliminated? My guess is, never.

you're right... apparently no player has ever had as big of a drop in stats in the Finals.

 

[O]

Please stop speculating and just go back to your meaningless lives.


Signed: The King!

 

[Cheesebeef]

You state that as if it were categorically true and that just isn't so. There were plenty of people jumping onto and off of the "Michael Jordan is the greatest player in the game" before they won their first championship.

As for Lebron James, yes there have been a lot of people labeling him as the best ever and that started while he was still in high school. And yes, he has failed to deliver on that promise. However, that's really at the heart of this discussion. His career is not yet over and he's not the first GREAT player to have come up short.

His 4th quarter disappearances against Dallas are certainly a bleak mark on his record but he has stepped up in the past and I'm quite certain he will again in the future.

that's just it Steve, in the biggest pressure moments, he HASN'T. Pressure on the Team USA in the gold medal game, he was playing hot potato and by all accounts looked like a scared bitch, literally biting his fingers during tense moments of the game. Going up against Boston with HCA and being the favorite, he literally quit on the series and now in the Finals, with all the talent in the world, when the going got tough, he got going.

He plays INCREDIBLY well when there's no pressure on him. Let's look at his great playoff moments... the RIDICULOUS 29 point burst against the Pistons in Game 5 and winning that series in 6... ALL the pressure was on Detroit. The Cavs were a heavy underdog, the 3 seed playing the reigning superpower in the East at the time. if he lost there it was okay because no one expected him to get that far. However, once he got into the Finals that year and people were comparing him to MJ, what happened? He went completely into the tank.

fast forward to 2008, when he had his incredible Game 7 against Boston, scoring 45 in a loss. Well, that Boston team was favored to win the title the second they traded for KG and Allen, won 66 games (19 more than the Cavs)... no one expected anything from him here either and he played carefree because there would be no consequences if he lost.

And that's pretty much it for his greatness in the playoffs. Since then (and before) when faced with pressure, the guy has completely crumbled, and I mean COMPLETELY FOLDED to the point of looking like he flat out quit... sometimes with all the talent in the world (Olympics and 2011 Finals), sometimes without (2010 v. Boston).

He's really yet to show he can handle pressure at all. Fair or not, he bailed on leading a team so he could, in his own words, "not have to feel like he faced pressure to be the man every night". That is a GLARING admission and point blank evidence that dude doesn't want the responsibility of being the absolute man.

 

[Covert Rain]

You state that as if it were categorically true and that just isn't so. There were plenty of people jumping onto and off of the "Michael Jordan is the greatest player in the game" before they won their first championship.

As for Lebron James, yes there have been a lot of people labeling him as the best ever and that started while he was still in high school. And yes, he has failed to deliver on that promise. However, that's really at the heart of this discussion. His career is not yet over and he's not the first GREAT player to have come up short.

His 4th quarter disappearances against Dallas are certainly a bleak mark on his record but he has stepped up in the past and I'm quite certain he will again in the future. I don't think he will ever be the greatest closer in the game but he's still one of the best in the game right now and he'll likely have plenty of opportunities to enter the best ever conversation in the future.

Steve

I simply disagree. Conventional wisdom amongst his peers and many NBA pundits was that he was only a scorer and they were not calling him the best player in the league at the start of his career. That was more fan fodder then anything else. He was another "potential" guy in the league that could score. He was highly criticized and the general consensus was he couldn't play defense and wasn't a good team player.

I am specifically referring to the time frame when there was a general consensus in the league when MJ was considered the best in the league. I think it was year 4 of his career is when generally across the league people started changing their tune about him. The tide started to turn with his focus on defense. After winning the Defensive player of the year people started putting him up their with the best in the league. When he followed that year up with proof that he was committed on both ends, that's when all the real talk about him being the best player in the league started.

It's debatable when it all "started" but the point is that when it was a consensus around the league that he was the "best", nobody was saying he couldn't be your #1 player at that time. He showed up during all those playoff losses that followed against the Celtics and Detroit for example. He showed up on both ends. Nobody accused Jordan of not showing up and I don't recall anybody saying he couldn't be your #1. The thing people kept saying is that the Bulls were too young and inexperienced.

In contrast when during this current time frame in LeBrons career when people are saying he is the best in the league that question is now upfront and center. Unlike Jordan, who in all those playoff series losses did show-up, LeBron didn't in the finals. That is why it's not the same scenario.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I simply disagree. Conventional wisdom amongst his peers and many NBA pundits was that he was only a scorer and they were not calling him the best player in the league at the start of his career. That was more fan fodder then anything else. He was another "potential" guy in the league that could score. He was highly criticized and the general consensus was he couldn't play defense and wasn't a good team player..

I usually say I disagree but if I've understood you correctly I'd have to say you're mistaken. Michael did not win his first championship until the 90's. He entered the league in 84 and there was talk from the beginning that he was both the best in the game and NOT capable of being the kind of team player that would lead his team to victory.

Check out some of Larry Bird's quotes on MJ (long before Jordan's first championship) if you think it was just fans calling him something special. Larry said "that was God disguised as Michael Jordan" after the Bulls had just lost to the Celtics and that quote was from 86 (4 years before his first championship).

I was already living in So Cal by 85 and I hated hearing how great Michael was every time I turned on Sportscenter. I had no access to the Suns so I satisfied my NBA fix by watching (and even at times, cheering) for the Lakers (I was never a Lakers fan but I loved watching Magic play the game). There was already plenty of talk by MJ's third year about him being the greatest and within another year or two people were starting to question his greatness because he couldn't do what Magic and Bird had done, namely elevate the players around him. That talk died down when they won their first championship and by the end of that 3peat it was all but forgotten.

Lebron is NOT Michael and I don't think he will ever rise to that level. He's got him beat in physical gifts but he doesn't have the killer instinct that Michael and a few others possessed. He's more afraid of failure than motivated by it and that will always be his cross to bear. However, I think he is physically so far advanced beyond his peers that he can make this basically a non-issue.

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

I usually say I disagree but if I've understood you correctly I'd have to say you're mistaken. Michael did not win his first championship until the 90's. He entered the league in 84 and there was talk from the beginning that he was both the best in the game and NOT capable of being the kind of team player that would lead his team to victory.

Correct. The first one came in 90-91. But he was not considered the best player in the league from the beginning. People didn't begin talking about that until he changed his game. My brother in law that has just about every book written on MJ and I asked him if I was crazy. It wouldn't be the first time. He agreed that Jordan was considered one dimensional and not considered the best player in the league. Possibly best scorer but not all around best player.

In his fourth year in the league, Jordan picked up the pace, earning his first Defensive Player of the Year award and leading the Bulls to a 50-win season and their first victory in a playoff series since he joined the team. But Jordan and Company still weren’t within sniffing distance of the NBA Finals, leaving room for critics to keep sniping at his game.

Check out some of Larry Bird's quotes on MJ (long before Jordan's first championship) if you think it was just fans calling him something special. Larry said "that was God disguised as Michael Jordan" after the Bulls had just lost to the Celtics and that quote was from 86 (4 years before his first championship).

That was one of Birds famous quotes about the offensive prowess of MJ and his ability to score. Here are some more telling comments about what was thought of him overall. Some other comments PRIOR to him being considered the best player:

On MJ being one dimensional:

Magic Johnson: "I have a few more horses than he does." As Jordan's points and shot attempts soared, so did criticism, some of it from people whom he respected and even envied.

Larry Bird: "When he came into the league, I thought (Jordan) would be a great all-around player, but his game has completely changed. Right now, the only thing he does is shoot 30 times a game. I'd never want to play like that. He's got to play like that, I guess, but I would never ever want to take 30-to-35 shots a game. It's too much of a load every game."

Again, this was before his commitment to defense. Even his own peers didn't think he had an all around game. The press and NBA pundits agreed. Where there some people that still thought he was the best? I am sure. But it wasn't universally thought of as the best all around player early on.

Lebron is NOT Michael and I don't think he will ever rise to that level. He's got him beat in physical gifts but he doesn't have the killer instinct that Michael and a few others possessed. He's more afraid of failure than motivated by it and that will always be his cross to bear. However, I think he is physically so far advanced beyond his peers that he can make this basically a non-issue.

Steve

Good take.

 

[TJ]

It would be Cleveland-lite for LBJ. He would be able to carry the Suns on his back up until the playoffs, get a low seed, then the team is one and done.

I said "Cleveland-lite" because the role players around him would be far worse than he had with the Cavs.

 

[dodie53]

i'll try this on 2k11
hehe