Leftwich and Boston, great games should have been Cards

Northern Card

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Originally posted by Ouchie-Z-Clown
yo northern, go check EVERYTHING i've EVER posted. i wanted boston here. is he a freak? yes. is he still better than every receiver on our team when healthy? yes. he was worth the cheddar. i hated our draft (except 'quan) and thought we should have taken lefty. check out EVERY post of mine. i think mac is a terrible coach. he's a great rah-rah type guy, but the man just gets his shorts pulled down week in and week out. check EVERY post of mine. before you start callin' peeps out for being hypocrites, know that many of us held these thoughts from the get-go.

not getting lefty was an incredible gaff. don't know if we'll recover (recover - who am i kidding? that presupposes we were ever healthy to begin with!) from that mistake.

It was a general observation... not "a" specific. I'll spend all of a nano second checking your posts, if you don't mind. Evidently, if I did I'd note that you can see deep iinto the future...

Unfortunately, as a mere mortal, I don't have that cosmic ability :D
 

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Let me say that I do not have any particular feelings or thoughts about Boston, one way or the other. I have noticed strong hate/indifference ambiguity towards him among some on this board. All I know about him is what I hear and read about his current gig in Sandy Eggo. But, he is not a concern for many people a this time, and he certainly is not a concern of mine.

I also do not have pity for the Cards. Pity is demoralizing and insulting. And the shallow: "I feel your pain" bromide is rather condescending and unhelpful. To say, however, that I have some belief that something might be done yet to bring this francise to a higher level of competitiveness, is to express support without rose colored glasses. And I do express that.
 

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Leftwich will not be great every game he plays for a while. But he has a lot more potential than a lot of QBs out there. Boller is also a fellow with some upside, along with Harrignton, Brees, Carson, and a few others. These guys are on not-so-good teams right now, but there's a whole lot more sense of promise and develoment possibilities than what I see in many other teams. Cards included right now.

Again, I am not knocking Blake. He's probably playing the system available to him fairly well until he gets more "used" to it and understand the capabilities of the other players on the team.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Originally posted by Russ Smith
One somewhat lost point in this is that Leftwich lit up San Diego, one of the worst pass defenses in the NFL currently. He is going to be a star but a lot of the focus is because he played so well yesterday, note the absence of Leftwich posts LAST week when he had 3 picks in his first start.

I picked him up on my fantasy team Thursday PRECISELY because he was playing the chargers. Right now both my transactions look smart because I picked up Shipp too and he may start to get some carries.

i agree russ, but even his first 3 pick game he still looked the part. for his first game as a rookie i thought he played well. for his SECOND game as a rookie, poor SD defense or no, he looked like a stud.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Originally posted by Northern Card
It was a general observation... not "a" specific. I'll spend all of a nano second checking your posts, if you don't mind. Evidently, if I did I'd note that you can see deep iinto the future...

Unfortunately, as a mere mortal, I don't have that cosmic ability :D

sorry northern, just bitter 'cuz we suck. but i can see the future, at least for the cards it seems. and the future is bleak.
 

Northern Card

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Originally posted by Ouchie-Z-Clown
sorry northern, just bitter 'cuz we suck. but i can see the future, at least for the cards it seems. and the future is bleak.

Well as I said: I can't devine the future. So, as a 30+ year fan, I remain a blissfully naive optimist. Hey! after close to a century we may have, not one but both - the Red Sox and the Cubs in the World series...:D
 
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DevonCardsFan

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Originally posted by Brian in Mesa
Enough with threads about guys that ARE NOT CARDINALS. Once they leave - they're gone. Who cares what they do elsewhere...it doesn't mean they would have done the same here on that same day. It's an idiotic direction to go in... Pick up these guys in your fantasy league, but leave em out of Cards talk.


Why the hell is that an idiotic direction to go in???? Whats your deal dude. Discussing bad moves and missed player acquisitions is as relavent as discussing upcoming acqusition and coach hirings. I don't understand your problem dude.

"By the way nice Darth Maul avatar thats real credible for a Cards board and idiotic" If I were to say that, that would be using the same logic as the above mentioned post. It just is dumb and confrontational.
 

Renz

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Originally posted by DevonCardsFan
Why the hell is that an idiotic direction to go in???? Whats your deal dude. Discussing bad moves and missed player acquisitions is as relavent as discussing upcoming acqusition and coach hirings. I don't understand your problem dude.

"By the way nice Darth Maul avatar thats real credible for a Cards board and idiotic" If I were to say that, that would be using the same logic as the above mentioned post. It just is dumb and confrontational.
Maybe idiotic wasn't the best choice of words. How about pointless? I understand BIM's frustration though. Everytime the Cardinals lose someone starts a thread about Boston/Plummer/Suggs. It's tired.

Does anyone on this board really want Plummer back. Don't think so. Suggs? Maybe we should have drafted him. Maybe not, but that topic has been beaten to death! Should we have tried to get something more for Boston? That's debatable and believe me, it has been debated into the ground. Maybe with the franchise tag we could have gotten a high pick for him, but it is also realistic to think that we would have gotten no offers and then been stuck with him, or ended up releasing him anyway. Besides, we will probably get a compensatory draft pick (likely a third rounder or so), so we didn't lose him for nothing. At this point, a third rounder for that headcase seems like a good deal for us.

Either way, it is time to let the Boston/Plummer/Suggs threads die.
 
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I think that it was a horrible choice not drafting Lefty. It is kinda like you just bought a new family car. A nice japanese one(symboling Mcnown) then you see a sale on a brand new Mercedes for the same price(Lefty). If you have the money to spend you buy the Mercedes knowing that anywasy you could trade in the japanese one.

Arizona's drafts never seizes to baffle me. They had so many holes, but could have filled the need for DE in Suggs, an impact player, gone for Lefty (IMO the best qb in a qb rich draft).
Then they trade down for two players in the middle of the first that could have been there in the second. I mean, Johnson was a good choice IMO, but Pace was bad. They trade down again and might still get Pace but maybe also Kenny Peterson or some other.

I am certain these sentiments have been said time and time again on the board but it still rings true. In light of how Jimmy Johnson fixed the Cowboys by knowing they wouldn't win the first season, so he excused all the coaches to scout the college games. This enabled them to have great reports and sound drafts.
Another thing to mention is how Ron Wolf almost always got the better hand in the draft. He always selected who they had rated high to mold and to trade for better picks.
 

Russ Smith

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Originally posted by haroldthebarrel
I think that it was a horrible choice not drafting Lefty. It is kinda like you just bought a new family car. A nice japanese one(symboling Mcnown) then you see a sale on a brand new Mercedes for the same price(Lefty). If you have the money to spend you buy the Mercedes knowing that anywasy you could trade in the japanese one.

Arizona's drafts never seizes to baffle me. They had so many holes, but could have filled the need for DE in Suggs, an impact player, gone for Lefty (IMO the best qb in a qb rich draft).
Then they trade down for two players in the middle of the first that could have been there in the second. I mean, Johnson was a good choice IMO, but Pace was bad. They trade down again and might still get Pace but maybe also Kenny Peterson or some other.

I am certain these sentiments have been said time and time again on the board but it still rings true. In light of how Jimmy Johnson fixed the Cowboys by knowing they wouldn't win the first season, so he excused all the coaches to scout the college games. This enabled them to have great reports and sound drafts.
Another thing to mention is how Ron Wolf almost always got the better hand in the draft. He always selected who they had rated high to mold and to trade for better picks.

McNown is not a Card, McCown is. The Cards had 2 2nd year QB's on the roster and they signed Blake, it was obvious we weren't taking Lefty, I agree he would have been the best pick frankly I think we can blame the coaching situation for that. Mac knew he had a better chance of winning games THIS year with Blake than with a rookie. Leftwich is going to be a star but he threw 3 picks in his first start, Houston, and then lit up a terrible San Diego secondary. The Cards thought we could win 8 games or more with this club and Blake, they knew they couldn't with a rookie QB starting.

IF Mac were more secure as a coach we might have drafted Leftwich, we discussed all of this on this board before the draft.

Both Pace and Johnson said they were told by other NFL teams they were going in the first round if the Cards had passed on them, we don't know for sure but just because Kiper and ESPN said 2nd rounder doesn't make it true.

Pace is a more complete player than Suggs, not as good of a pass rusher right now which hurts but the Cards have yet to start their DL intact this season. Bell missed 2-3 games, when he came back Bryant went out. When the line is intact(hopefully Sunday) it'll be a lot easier to judge Pace. He hasn't showed anything special yet in the season but he impressed a lot of people in camp and preseason so I'm still hopeful.
 

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Originally posted by Russ Smith
McNown is not a Card, McCown is. The Cards had 2 2nd year QB's on the roster and they signed Blake, it was obvious we weren't taking Lefty, I agree he would have been the best pick frankly I think we can blame the coaching situation for that. Mac knew he had a better chance of winning games THIS year with Blake than with a rookie. Leftwich is going to be a star but he threw 3 picks in his first start, Houston, and then lit up a terrible San Diego secondary. The Cards thought we could win 8 games or more with this club and Blake, they knew they couldn't with a rookie QB starting.

IF Mac were more secure as a coach we might have drafted Leftwich, we discussed all of this on this board before the draft.

Both Pace and Johnson said they were told by other NFL teams they were going in the first round if the Cards had passed on them, we don't know for sure but just because Kiper and ESPN said 2nd rounder doesn't make it true.

Pace is a more complete player than Suggs, not as good of a pass rusher right now which hurts but the Cards have yet to start their DL intact this season. Bell missed 2-3 games, when he came back Bryant went out. When the line is intact(hopefully Sunday) it'll be a lot easier to judge Pace. He hasn't showed anything special yet in the season but he impressed a lot of people in camp and preseason so I'm still hopeful.

If this is the case, then Graves needs to be fired immediately. He simply CANNOT allow the worries of a HC to dictate to the team what kind of franchise players they have. I mean, if that's the reason they passed on Lefty, then Graves is spineless.

I'm not saying that is the reason, or the sole reason, they passed on him. Gawd, I hope not!
 

earthsci

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Devon,
Maybe a better way to verbalize (or write) it is (and this isn't in any way a bag on you) - many people discussed all these points in length while you were on your hiatus. Ouchie and Cheesebeef, for example, don't really discuss this anymore. Did they? Hell yeah. Some agree, some disagree. As Renz said though, it's tired.
 
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Russ said
"McNown is not a Card, McCown is. The Cards had 2 2nd year QB's on the roster and they signed Blake, it was obvious we weren't taking Lefty, I agree he would have been the best pick frankly I think we can blame the coaching situation for that. Mac knew he had a better chance of winning games THIS year with Blake than with a rookie. Leftwich is going to be a star but he threw 3 picks in his first start, Houston, and then lit up a terrible San Diego secondary. The Cards thought we could win 8 games or more with this club and Blake, they knew they couldn't with a rookie QB starting.

IF Mac were more secure as a coach we might have drafted Leftwich, we discussed all of this on this board before the draft.

Both Pace and Johnson said they were told by other NFL teams they were going in the first round if the Cards had passed on them, we don't know for sure but just because Kiper and ESPN said 2nd rounder doesn't make it true.

Pace is a more complete player than Suggs, not as good of a pass rusher right now which hurts but the Cards have yet to start their DL intact this season. Bell missed 2-3 games, when he came back Bryant went out. When the line is intact(hopefully Sunday) it'll be a lot easier to judge Pace. He hasn't showed anything special yet in the season but he impressed a lot of people in camp and preseason so I'm still hopeful."


My points was that you select the best player available. If you have a qb problem you select a franchise player if the oppurtunity is there. If McCown is also a franchise qb, you trade him for the best picks you can get. That is why I brought up Wolf.
It shows everytime at the draft. Unless there are some expansion teams at least two or more of the top ten doesn't have a qb. In this draft you had Cin, AZ, Chi, Dal and Car. That Lefty escapes them is simply stupid. It's all right like last year when Car could choose from harrington and Peppers, the latter being LT potential, but unless there are safe picks it is very risky to pass up a qb. Now, AZ could have gone for Boller and rest him on the bench for a year. Boller was never ready to play pro now in the first place, but he sure had potential. IMO only Lefty looked like he could do some good right now, but even if he is the most ready of the bunch, he can thank Jimmy Smith that he bails him out. Otherwise you would see lots of ints, which anyways are common for all qbs. (Even a first ballot HOFer like Elway threw a bunch of them his first year)

Regarding AZs HC it is awful when you force wins. None whatsoever with a slightest knowledge of football would call AZ an even team. If they reached 8-8 that would be because of luck and some very good breaks, like going on a streak and feeling invinsible.
On your point regarding Pace. The fact that he had shined in preseason doesn't mean squat come real games. Almost all rookie DEs struggles the first season. That doesn't mean he won't become a good player eventually, but unless you have an otherwise great front four which enables the rookie to play role or up to his strength, he will almost alwasy struggle. Suggs plays only the pass, Freeney did the same last year, Taylor and kearse the same before that.
What you also must put into the equation is that Pace, Brayton, Kelsay and Redding looked very similar. Of the four of them only Kelsay has not shined in preseason. That means that chances are that you would have gotten at least one of these, and even if you had Pace ranked highest, it still evens out could you get a player like T. Pierce, Doss, Hamlin, Peterson or Mathis on top of the DE.
Besides if you wanted to look at the DEs with the most potential you might wanna look closely at Omenyiora, Mitchell or Garay.
They are all rough projects but what I think that if Mitchell finds himself or Garay stays injury free they will be very good.
Omenyiora will be a pro bowler barring serious injuries, mark my words.

(Thanks for the polite response anyway, though)
 
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KingofCards

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I for one am happy we got rid of Boston.

I was all for drafting Lefty or Trufant.

I didn't want Suggs.

I wanted to draft a freaking Cornerback with the 1st pick. I bet Shane H. that we would, of course I stayed up all night drinking in anticipation of the draft.

And now I owe him a beer because of it. Marcus Trufant owes me a beer or Terrance Cowpoke whichever.

I don't understand the point of rehashing who we should have drafted or what we should have done in the offseason. What is the point again?

Wow, you guys could all be after the fact Player Personal Directors.

Move on.
 
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KingofCards

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Originally posted by Stout
No, BEFORE the fact...we're just reinforcing it :D

Foresight is 20/20 sometimes. We are all still in the same boat, regardless of past predictions. So you predicted our boat would be **** in. Yipee, good for you, now come and sit in the **** and row with me.

:thumbup:
 
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Stout

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Originally posted by KingofCards
Foresight is 20/20 sometimes. We are all still in the same boat, regardless of past predictions. So you predicted our boat would be **** in. Yipee, good for you, now come and sit in the **** and row with me.

:thumbup:

Lol! One, two three, ****! One, two three, ****! :D
 

Russ Smith

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Originally posted by haroldthebarrel

My points was that you select the best player available. If you have a qb problem you select a franchise player if the oppurtunity is there.

Regarding AZs HC it is awful when you force wins. None whatsoever with a slightest knowledge of football would call AZ an even team. If they reached 8-8 that would be because of luck and some very good breaks, like going on a streak and feeling invinsible.

What you also must put into the equation is that Pace, Brayton, Kelsay and Redding looked very similar. Of the four of them only Kelsay has not shined in preseason. That means that chances are that you would have gotten at least one of these, and even if you had Pace ranked highest, it still evens out could you get a player like T. Pierce, Doss, Hamlin, Peterson or Mathis on top of the DE.
Besides if you wanted to look at the DEs with the most potential you might wanna look closely at Omenyiora, Mitchell or Garay.
They are all rough projects but what I think that if Mitchell finds himself or Garay stays injury free they will be very good.
Omenyiora will be a pro bowler barring serious injuries, mark my words.

(Thanks for the polite response anyway, though)

I agree Leftwich was the best player there. That's one of the things that annoyed me post draft when everyone ripped us for not taking Suggs, when Leftwich was the best player on the board.

Pace is playing every down and going head to head with LT's, already played Jones and Orlando Pace this year. No sacks yet but he has 10 tackles and 2 assists and he until the Ram game was playing fairly well against the run. Orlando Pace ate him up, frankly I think Pace eats up Suggs too. I didn't see the last game, most seem to think Pace was handled by Dallas too. AS you said Suggs is a situational pass rusher only, he's not playing every down, he doesn't have to do anything but rush the passer, from the RT side, and often he's going against a TE because of how they line him up. So far great start but the Cards would have had to completely change their defense to use Suggs, and we wouldn't have Bryant Johnson who looked very promising before the shoulder injury.

I don't want to belabor the point but Pace broke his leg in a game last year, still played, and played in the bowl game on one leg. he was therefore running much slower times during the critical pre draft time. Several scouts later said if not for that injury he'd have been rated a #1 pick, the Cards were not the only team who liked him but because of our reputation the pick was immediately attacked.

As for why the Cards passed on LEftwich, my belief is someone in the organization feels McCown is the future and they signed Blake as the immediate bridge to Josh. Personally I don't think McCown IS the future I think he's talented but so far I'm not convinced he was worth passing on Leftwich for

I think a bunch of teams including your Broncos had a chance to get Byron and blew it by deciding to not move up for him, frankly I expected the Cards to trade with a team that wanted HIM, not a DT like the Saints and Sullivan.
 

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