Let’s Talk About Lamb

[Solar7]

I think the big difference here is the guys who don’t want to draft an OT don’t say they will be pissed if we do or the team will be “stupid” to do that, or that anyone that wants a WR has “no sense”. It seems the “don’t draft WR” folks are militant about it and dismiss anyone else’s opinion as nonsense

Well, personally, it's not pro-OT as much as it is anti-WR. I think drafting a WR makes about as much sense as drafting a QB or kicker at #8.

Lots of us don't have much else to do at the moment besides get incredulous about this, haha.

If you don't know what we should do, or care what we do at #8, I don't understand getting bothered by those of us who really strongly have an opinion. I don't think I've told anyone who is in wait-and-see mode that they're stupid, but if you don't care... why does it bother you what I care?

It's confusing.

 

[Zeno]

Well, personally, it's not pro-OT as much as it is anti-WR. I think drafting a WR makes about as much sense as drafting a QB or kicker at #8.

Lots of us don't have much else to do at the moment besides get incredulous about this, haha.

If you don't know what we should do, or care what we do at #8, I don't understand getting bothered by those of us who really strongly have an opinion. I don't think I've told anyone who is in wait-and-see mode that they're stupid, but if you don't care... why does it bother you what I care?

It's confusing.

it’s freaking tiresome to read. It’s a song on repeat, and not a very good one. Every draft thread dissolves in to the “anti WR” crowd telling others how they have no idea what they are talking about.

 

[Solar7]

it’s freaking tiresome to read. It’s a song on repeat, and not a very good one. Every draft thread dissolves in to the “anti WR” crowd telling others how they have no idea what they are talking about.

It's also tiresome to read "lol this offense is gonna be soooooo good with Lamb," or "this offensive line was really good in 2019!" Especially frustrating when it comes from someone you're not sure bothers to watch any tape or consider the cap and future situations on the team.

I think it just depends on your perspective on what's tiresome. I try to back up most of my arguments with stats and information, and not just tell someone they're wrong.

 

[Zeem_Freeze]

yeah half this site is Solar sitting alone in a cave yelling and listening to his echo....

 

[Solar7]

yeah half this site is Solar sitting alone in a cave yelling and listening to his echo....

I'm really only active in about half of the threads on the first page (at least from how many threads I have on my setting). But there's not really a lot else to do right now, especially for someone who lost his job in this whole nonsense.

You and I have never seen eye to eye though.

 

[Zeno]

It's also tiresome to read "lol this offense is gonna be soooooo good with Lamb," or "this offensive line was really good in 2019!" Especially frustrating when it comes from someone you're not sure bothers to watch any tape or consider the cap and future situations on the team.

I think it just depends on your perspective on what's tiresome. I try to back up most of my arguments with stats and information, and not just tell someone they're wrong.

I want the Cardinals to draft the best player period...my 2 favorites are Okudah and Simmons but I doubt either will be there (Young too but he will be long gone), after that everyone gets lumped together. I don’t want the team to fall in to the “draft solely for need” trap, get the player that will make the biggest impact now and in the future...if that player is a WR so be it, if it is an OT or DT then that is cool too. In other words don’t pass on a potential pro bowl WR for an average OT just because of perceived need. At the same time if they see the OT as a 10 year above average starter and the WRs as “just another guy” it’d be stupid to draft the WR.

 

[Solar7]

I want the Cardinals to draft the best player period...my 2 favorites are Okudah and Simmons but I doubt either will be there (Young too but he will be long gone), after that everyone gets lumped together. I don’t want the team to fall in to the “draft solely for need” trap, get the player that will make the biggest impact now and in the future...if that player is a WR so be it, if it is an OT or DT then that is cool too. In other words don’t pass on a potential pro bowl WR for an average OT just because of perceived need. At the same time if they see the OT as a 10 year above average starter and the WRs as “just another guy” it’d be stupid to draft the WR.

Right on man, I think Lamb and Jeudy are pretty damn good players, but this team isn't in the position to take them anymore.

You're very happy to see what comes, and that's fine, but part of the fun of the NFL to me is figuring out how these rosters are going to form, and creating strong opinions about what should happen. At the end of the day, I want to win and have fun, and it's tough do do that when the team makes bad decisions.

 

[cardsunsfan]

Right on man, I think Lamb and Jeudy are pretty damn good players, but this team isn't in the position to take them anymore.

You're very happy to see what comes, and that's fine, but part of the fun of the NFL to me is figuring out how these rosters are going to form, and creating strong opinions about what should happen. At the end of the day, I want to win and have fun, and it's tough do do that when the team makes bad decisions.

I think a part that frustrates people Solar is youyou state things as fact such as the team isn't in the position to take a receiver anymore. That is a very strong statement.. also that they would crazy, clueless, idiotic, etc. We have very good odds (maybe over 50%) that a year from now we will only have one good receiver on the team (Hopkins) That does not mean we have an abundance of riches at the position. I would take a RT if all things were equal or even less so.. Lets say Lamb was rated at 95 and Wills was rated at 93, I would probably take Wills.. but if Lamb is rated at 95 and Wills 88 I would probably take Lamb.. and I don't think would make me or the Cardinals "crazy"

 

[DVontel]

I think the big difference here is the guys who don’t want to draft an OT don’t say they will be pissed if we do or the team will be “stupid” to do that, or that anyone that wants a WR has “no sense”. It seems the “don’t draft WR” folks are militant about it and dismiss anyone else’s opinion as nonsense

I’m going to continue to dismiss it because it’s just downright insane, especially after acquiring a top 3 WR.

 

[Zeno]

I’m going to continue to dismiss it because it’s just downright insane, especially after acquiring a top 3 WR.

Translated, “I know better than everyone else”. You are full of yourself.

 

[Praxis]

Chris Simms said Lamb is the clear #1 WR in this draft. Compares him to Hopkins physically and Landry after the catch. "By far the best WR with the ball in his hands...a can't-miss prospect." Has Jeudy outside of his top 5 WRs.

Segment starts around 27:00
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podca...jerry-jeudy-4-1-1/id426497635?i=1000470199470

 

[GuernseyCard]

Well, personally, it's not pro-OT as much as it is anti-WR. I think drafting a WR makes about as much sense as drafting a QB or kicker at #8.

Lots of us don't have much else to do at the moment besides get incredulous about this, haha.

If you don't know what we should do, or care what we do at #8, I don't understand getting bothered by those of us who really strongly have an opinion. I don't think I've told anyone who is in wait-and-see mode that they're stupid, but if you don't care... why does it bother you what I care?

It's confusing.

Equating selecting a w/o with choosing a QB or kicker at #8 is the height of condescension: no confusion there.

 

[Solar7]

I think a part that frustrates people Solar is youyou state things as fact such as the team isn't in the position to take a receiver anymore. That is a very strong statement.. also that they would crazy, clueless, idiotic, etc. We have very good odds (maybe over 50%) that a year from now we will only have one good receiver on the team (Hopkins) That does not mean we have an abundance of riches at the position. I would take a RT if all things were equal or even less so.. Lets say Lamb was rated at 95 and Wills was rated at 93, I would probably take Wills.. but if Lamb is rated at 95 and Wills 88 I would probably take Lamb.. and I don't think would make me or the Cardinals "crazy"

What's frustrating about the current situation to myself, and probably @DVontel and some others, is the weird sudden perception that the OTs are all busts because there isn't a firm #1, and the people who are desperately worried about next year's WR situation are ignoring that this year and the future on our offensive line is bad.

Any time I bring up actual hard stats, people seem to gloss over them and go on emotion.

- Kyler Murray was top 5 in hurries, but #33 in QB hits, which means he bailed this OL out constantly

This gets ignored because PFF said that half of the sacks (which are just added on to hurries) were his fault.

- We have 5 young WRs under contract for 2020, but no reliable RT, reliable G, tons of question marks at Center, functionally no ILB, and 3 total DE/DTs

This gets ignored because people are scared Larry is going to retire and we couldn't possibly acquire another WR next offseason, compared to how impossible it's going to be to fill those positions. We should be able to reap some benefits somewhere from Kirk, Isabella, Butler, and Johnson.

No team should be taking a 3rd or 4th receiver in the top ten picks unless they have every other position figured out. It's bad football. It would also be bad football to take a clearly bad OL or defensive player, but there aren't any clearly bad players we're talking about. It's more than obvious that this is about going sexy and putting up more points/big plays for some posters. Not all, but some.

 

[Solar7]

Equating selecting a w/o with choosing a QB or kicker at #8 is the height of condescension: not confusion there.

WR is the team's last need outside of QB, K, P, and LS. There is not another position on this team filled with a top-3 player, Hall of Famer, and young gut with upside.

There's nothing condescending about noting that we don't have another position group with similar accolades. CB is the next, but age and contract situations count there.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Right on man, I think Lamb and Jeudy are pretty damn good players, but this team isn't in the position to take them anymore.

You're very happy to see what comes, and that's fine, but part of the fun of the NFL to me is figuring out how these rosters are going to form, and creating strong opinions about what should happen. At the end of the day, I want to win and have fun, and it's tough do do that when the team makes bad decisions.

Cheer up and view your present setback as a real opportunity.

You're evidently the guy to straighten out this mess in the Cards FO.

There's a $1m a year job waiting for you.

 

[SoonerLou]

Then why is there all the hype to get Lamb here if he wasn't even his favorite receiver? I think this is all over blown.

Not sure.

Lamb actually showed more with Jalen Hurts (was worried about him with a new QB and no Hollywood)

I think Kyler is thinking of Lamb's potential. As stated earlier Lamb bailed him out quite a bit and Kyler missed him on a few throws as well.

This made me think of something else. With the lack of normal scouting going on...

The guy to look out for Lee Morris as an UDFA. Former teammate of Kyler's in HS and college. He was looking like a legit prospect with Kyler but sort of faded with Jalen. He's a tweener. However, thats a guy I'd take a flyer on as UDFA.

 

[Solar7]

Cheer up and view your present setback as a real opportunity.

You're evidently the guy to straighten out this mess in the Cards FO.

There's a $1m a year job waiting for you.

 

[Zeno]

What's frustrating about the current situation to myself, and probably @DVontel and some others, is the weird sudden perception that the OTs are all busts because there isn't a firm #1, and the people who are desperately worried about next year's WR situation are ignoring that this year and the future on our offensive line is bad.

Any time I bring up actual hard stats, people seem to gloss over them and go on emotion.

- Kyler Murray was top 5 in hurries, but #33 in QB hits, which means he bailed this OL out constantly

This gets ignored because PFF said that half of the sacks (which are just added on to hurries) were his fault.

- We have 5 young WRs under contract for 2020, but no reliable RT, reliable G, tons of question marks at Center, functionally no ILB, and 3 total DE/DTs

This gets ignored because people are scared Larry is going to retire and we couldn't possibly acquire another WR next offseason, compared to how impossible it's going to be to fill those positions. We should be able to reap some benefits somewhere from Kirk, Isabella, Butler, and Johnson.

No team should be taking a 3rd or 4th receiver in the top ten picks unless they have every other position figured out. It's bad football. It would also be bad football to take a clearly bad OL or defensive player, but there aren't any clearly bad players we're talking about. It's more than obvious that this is about going sexy and putting up more points/big plays for some posters. Not all, but some.

That is all well and good if the OT is the highest rated player on the board when we are on the clock. You don’t grab the lesser player just because of your current roster construction...at least not in the first round. If the team has an OT rated higher, regardless of need, then by all means pick him but if the WR is clearly the better player you take the WR. If we are at a dead tie among prospects you go to who fills a bigger need, if you have several players similarly rated you trade down a few and draft the best one let.

I am not knocking the OT prospects or touting the WRs, I just don’t want us to fall in the trap of drafting a player solely because of his position while a better player is on the board. That never ends well in the long run.

it sounds like you think needs are all that should be considered and I totally disagree with that.

 

[Solar7]

That is all well and good if the OT is the highest rated player on the board when we are on the clock. You don’t grab the lesser player just because of your current roster construction...at least not in the first round. If the team has an OT rated higher, regardless of need, then by all means pick him but if the WR is clearly the better player you take the WR. If we are at a dead tie among prospects you go to who fills a bigger need, if you have several players similarly rated you trade down a few and draft the best one let.

I am not knocking the OT prospects or touting the WRs, I just don’t want us to fall in the trap of drafting a player solely because of his position while a better player is on the board. That never ends well in the long run.

it sounds like you think needs are all that should be considered and I totally disagree with that.

Nope, I'm not all for needs, to clarify, but I want to consider them. There are three defensive guys that could become available to us that are essentially superstars, and I'd be happy with any of them, accepting that OT/G is going to be a problem we'll have to solve down the road.

If all of the OTs were hot garbage, and Lamb was all that was left, fine. But I don't see it that way.

There's four positions I'm going to walk away from draft night without complaint, just one I'm going to view as a massive luxury pick on a very fragile roster.

 

[Zeno]

Nope, I'm not all for needs, to clarify, but I want to consider them. There are three defensive guys that could become available to us that are essentially superstars, and I'd be happy with any of them, accepting that OT/G is going to be a problem we'll have to solve down the road.

If all of the OTs were hot garbage, and Lamb was all that was left, fine. But I don't see it that way.

There's four positions I'm going to walk away from draft night without complaint, just one I'm going to view as a massive luxury pick on a very fragile roster.

I don’t want potentially average but potentially great...regardless of position. We are picking in the top 10 of the draft and hopefully for the last time for a long time, we can’t afford to miss like we did with Reddick or have a first round pick “redshirt” like Humphries. To say the team shouldn’t consider WR at all is just wrong.

 

[Solar7]

I don’t want potentially average but potentially great...regardless of position. We are picking in the top 10 of the draft and hopefully for the last time for a long time, we can’t afford to miss like we did with Reddick or have a first round pick “redshirt” like Humphries. To say the team shouldn’t consider WR at all is just wrong.

I want a strong team that can win. I love Larry to death, but watching him set records while the team fails to contend is no fun. If that means taking a very good but not HOF player at 8, I'm fine with it if it develops into actually going to the playoffs.

 

[GuernseyCard]

I don’t want potentially average but potentially great...regardless of position. We are picking in the top 10 of the draft and hopefully for the last time for a long time, we can’t afford to miss like we did with Reddick or have a first round pick “redshirt” like Humphries. To say the team shouldn’t consider WR at all is just wrong.

And an O-lineman, short of injury, will redshift.

 

[Zeno]

I want a strong team that can win. I love Larry to death, but watching him set records while the team fails to contend is no fun. If that means taking a very good but not HOF player at 8, I'm fine with it if it develops into actually going to the playoffs.

A team gets stronger by drafting the best players their position in the draft allows. Obviously this team isn’t drafting a QB but of the other top 10 players in the draft who aren’t Tua or Burrow they should all be in consideration. If we pick an OT, DT or WR so be it as long as they are 100% confident that is the absolute best player on the board.

 

[Zeno]

Last thing about this for me. if anything last years draft proved Keim will take the player he thinks makes the team better in the long haul. He traded up for a QB in the first round the year before yet still took a QB #1 overall the following year.

I was against it at the time but in hindsight it was clearly the right call. If Steve Keim, based on input from his scouts and coaches, feels a WR is the best player for the Cardinals at #8 he is going to take him regardless of the make up of the roster. If not he will go a diff direction. I am not a big Keim believer to be honest, but I think last years draft without Arians influence showed a lot about what he is all about.

 

[Solar7]

A team gets stronger by drafting the best players their position in the draft allows. Obviously this team isn’t drafting a QB but of the other top 10 players in the draft who aren’t Tua or Burrow they should all be in consideration. If we pick an OT, DT or WR so be it as long as they are 100% confident that is the absolute best player on the board.

In general, I agree with you. But teams don't get better by letting their young QB get exposed to some of the league's best pass rushers in their division.

Since this is an inexact science, there's no way for you to say Lamb (or any WR) is the best player on the board. If you miss on him, or he becomes nothing but another body in our muddled young WR situation, it's a huge swing for the fences that hurts the team and other players.

This is what I find frustrating - there's way more downside to this move than up. If Kirk/Isabella/Butler/Johnson outplay him in camp, given that they have more time in this the NFL and this offense, you're trying to completely artificially manufacture a role for him to play. Sit at the end of Kirk's contract and watch him have an awesome year while Lamb has done nothing, and now argue about how it's not feasible to sign Kirk because we invested a top ten pick on a wideout.

All of that opposed to a situation where we have a pretty good idea we have some productive (or top tier) guys, and then three we were amped about less than 365 days ago...

Edit: To be clear, I know Kirk has two more years, but this whole situation is wild with the virus and however Fitz's length of play could go.