Long ways to go...

[sly fly]

After watching last night's game against Utah, it made me realize how FAR this team is from being a top 3 team in the West.

When a team like Utah (who was getting their backside thumped for the last 2 weeks) comes in to your house and dictates the tempo, it really is indicative of the quality of your team.

I'm also mystified by the absence of Jahidi White and Donnell Harvey in the rotation. Didn't PHX acquire these guys to try and take pressure off the smalls?

A few notes about what I see going on...

- Amare Stoudemire. Is he the next coming of Ben Wallace or Karl Malone? His offensive game is offensive for the most part. He has an idea of what to do, but rarely can do it. If he doesn't get by the defender with speed, then he's out of luck. He's too short to shoot over most defenders.

Yes, he's improved his shot blocking. But, at the expense of good rebounding position. Amare needs to get on the glass on both sides of the court.

He needs to realize his motor is not going to run on full for the rest of his career. What will be his MO on the offensive end? Speed can only get you so far.

(P.S. quit staring down the guy you just blocked.)

- Shawn Marion. I'm going to back off on criticizing him. As long as he realizes his role, he should be fine. He needs to play better position defense (quit going for head fakes / quit overplaying). If he decided to be a premier defense stopper in this league... he could. And, I would be happy with everything that comes after that.

Take the 3 from the corner when it's there, and defer to JJ or CJ when it comes to the half-court set. Learn to finish stronger, and his game will open up for him.

- Casey Jacobsen. Finally. Looks like D'Antoni has reached him. CJ is becoming the player I envisioned. Shoot the damn ball, Casey. That's what he does. And, now that he's starting to hit the 3... others are looking for him. No hesitation, no trying to draw contact on the drive. His shooting just stretches the D that much further. What a weapon to have!

- JJ. Getting closer. But, still not quite there. He should of torched Utah. If you play JJ tight, he still has trouble making the quick decison. Once he learns to thrive on contact, he'll be tough to stop. Utah was up in his face all night.

- L. Barbosa. What can you say? There is no middle ground with him. And, that's to be expected. Utah (Arroyo/Lopez) really punished him. And, he'll learn from that.

The only thing left to determine for the rest of the year is 1.) how many ping pong balls PHX will have, and 2.) who's going to stick around for the future?

PHX is in almost the same position they were in right before they signed Tom Chambers as a free agent. They need to go out and get that type of player. Someone who's going to put the ball in the basket, create matchup problems for others, and add a little attitude to this team. The only I guy I see out there like that is Kobe Bryant.

If not Kobe, then I can see wholesale changes once again this off-season. Who will it be? It's probably no one player(s) we can imagine at the moment. With the collection of 1st rounders, the expansion Bobcats, the cap space, and expiring contracts... the possibilities are endless.

One thing is for certain... this could be the last hurrah for B. Colangelo if this plan does not work. This is the last rebuilding project I want to see for awhile. Management might want to swing for the fences this off-season...

 

[fordronken]

We, as Suns fans, are extremely spoiled right now, and it shows. Look at most big men who come direct from the NBA, and they are awful. Just because Amare started playing with success from the beginning, people are immediately treating him as if what he shows now are the only skills he will be able to get any better at. Look at every successful big man who skipped college right now and they developed parts of their game which were not apparent early on. As long as Amare doesn't become content with the skills he has now, listens to his coaches and works hard, I'm convinced he can develop everything he needs to add to his game and can become an extremely good player in this league.

He has played as long as Casey Jacobsen(speaking of people who we assume can't get any better), and Casey is still learning lots of things about how this game is supposed to be played, despite playing for years in a fairly decent college basketball program. Amare, for all intents and purposes, looks fairly lost out there on the floor offensively, but he still manages near or over 20 points.

Just because Amare puts up decent numbers while he's in his "young high school stud learning the game" phase, it doesn't mean he isn't going to be able to improve every aspect of his game over the next two to three years.

 

[BC867]

Originally posted by sly fly
When a team like Utah (who was getting their backside thumped for the last 2 weeks) comes in to your house and dictates the tempo, it really is indicative of the quality of your team.

Or of your Management.

It comes down to two philosophies.

1) In the 4th quarter, do you put your 5 best players on the court, regardless of position; or

2) Do you put your best player at each position on the court.

The Suns philosophy has always been number 1). The longer it goes on, the worse it gets.

With our current record, Management is either burying its head in the sand . . . or tanking it.

Leaving all of your backup Centers and Forwards on the bench two games in a row.

 

[newfan101]

Re: Re: Long ways to go...

Originally posted by BC867
Or of your Management.

It comes down to two philosophies.

1) In the 4th quarter, do you put your 5 best players on the court, regardless of position; or

2) Do you put your best player at each position on the court.

Are you familiar with the expression "beating a dead horse?"

 

[Joe Mama]

Re: Re: Long ways to go...

Originally posted by BC867
Or of your Management.

It comes down to two philosophies.

1) In the 4th quarter, do you put your 5 best players on the court, regardless of position; or

2) Do you put your best player at each position on the court.

The Suns philosophy has always been number 1). The longer it goes on, the worse it gets.

With our current record, Management is either burying its head in the sand . . . or tanking it.

Leaving all of your backup Centers and Forwards on the bench two games in a row.

That sounds great except the Suns have struggled the last several games with a traditional rotation. They've made their fourth-quarter comebacks mostly with their skill ball lineups.

Joe Mama

 

[BC867]

Re: Re: Re: Long ways to go...

Originally posted by newfan101
Are you familiar with the expression "beating a dead horse?"

So we must all bury our heads in the sand?

I mentioned my motivation, "The longer it goes on, the worse it gets."

And I raised the question, "Are the Suns tanking it?"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What are your thoughts, newfan? Is Suns management oblivious to the failure of its unorthodox approach . . . or are they trying for the lottery?

Or is the horse "dead"? Let's bury it and find another. 'Sorry, I can't do that.

So I'll keep questioning their approach if it shows weakness? That's part of the purpose of this forum.

 

[BC867]

Re: Re: Re: Long ways to go...

Originally posted by Joe Mama
That sounds great except the Suns have struggled the last several games with a traditional rotation. They've made their fourth-quarter comebacks mostly with their skill ball lineups.

A good point. But perhaps if the Suns approached the game from a position of strength, and gave a stronger rotation a chance to gell, they wouldn't play a 7-man rotation featuring 4 Guards. You have to admit that it's resulted in failure since the return of Amare.

 

[sly fly]

It's easy to sit here and second-guess the line-up D'A has put on the floor. It's as if other options would have definitely been better.

Let's call it like we see it. It's up to the players to produce while they're on the floor. And, for the most part, it's not happening.

This is the most critical stage EVER for the Suns franchise (except for the drug scandal or the coin flip). One lucky bounce of the ping-pong ball could open up a wealth of possibilities (even more than already).

The choices they make this off-season will dictate the direction of this franchise for years to come.

Pretty scary.

P.S. I know it's not going to happen, but I would love for Steve Nash to be back here.

 

[elindholm]

What are your thoughts, newfan? Is Suns management oblivious to the failure of its unorthodox approach

It's not "unorthodox." That's the point you've been missing all this time. Every NBA team has a tendency to go small if they don't have very good centers. Among today's big-name centers, both Ilgauskas and Yao are sometimes kept off the floor in crucial situations if their coaches don't think they provide the best matchups.

We all want the Suns to have a center who's so good that it would be unthinkable to have him off the floor during crunch time. But as those players are hard to come by, the Suns have two options:

1. Play mediocre centers because they are "centers," but for no other reason.

2. Develop makeshift lineups of more skilled players whose height limitations might be made up for by their other advantages.

For me personally, I'd rather see (1), as long as the season is lost anyway. What the heck, someone might develop into a real player.

But it is simply incorrect to describe (2) as "unorthodox." It is, in fact, what most teams do under the same circumstances, most of the time. And it can hardly be considered "tanking," since it is more likely to result in short-term success than (1) is.

It is, apparently, a deeply held conviction of yours that quality centers are just lurking out there, waiting to be employed, and the Suns shun them as a matter of philosophy. And yet, after all of these years, you have failed to produce a shred of evidence to support that charge. Instead, you have pointed to what we can all see -- that the Suns haven't won a title, that part of the reason they haven't won a title is that they've never had a great center, and that sometimes their center rotation is so weak as to not even warrant floor time. None of that addresses the fundamental issue.

You have made up your mind, but the rest of us have made up ours, too. The Suns don't use their centers more because their centers aren't very good. That's pretty much it. As I said before, I'd like to see them get minutes anyway, but that doesn't prevent me from understanding the reasons why it's not happening.

 

[elindholm]

Among today's big-name centers, both Ilgauskas and Yao are sometimes kept off the floor in crucial situations if their coaches don't think they provide the best matchups.

Add Mutombo to that list. And I doubt anyone would say that the Knicks have historically been opposed to centers.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
[BIt is, apparently, a deeply held conviction of yours that quality centers are just lurking out there, waiting to be employed, and the Suns shun them as a matter of philosophy. And yet, after all of these years, you have failed to produce a shred of evidence to support that charge. Instead, you have pointed to what we can all see -- that the Suns haven't won a title, that part of the reason they haven't won a title is that they've never had a great center, and that sometimes their center rotation is so weak as to not even warrant floor time. None of that addresses the fundamental issue.

You have made up your mind, but the rest of us have made up ours, too. The Suns don't use their centers more because their centers aren't very good. That's pretty much it. As I said before, I'd like to see them get minutes anyway, but that doesn't prevent me from understanding the reasons why it's not happening. [/B]

I agree completely.

A lot of Kobe fans gave me grief when I kept insisting that the Suns biggest need is to upgrade the center position rather than another shooting guard - even one as dominant as Kobe. In my book, if the Suns have the money to go after a big time FA or cap driven trade, it needs to be a center.

It is easy to get distracted by how much Voskuhl has improved and miss the fact that he is not long enough, strong enough, or big enough to ever be in the top 20 centers in the NBA. The Wizzards may have two centers better than Voskuhl.

We love Jake because he plays so hard and has great courage. We cheer his accomplishments and admire his development. But when Jerome James and Greg Ostertag can overwhelm him, it is time for a reality check.

I don't think D'Antoni is in love with small ball. I think he is facing a reality that some fans don't about the Suns centers.

 

[elindholm]

I agree completely.

A lot of Kobe fans gave me grief when I kept insisting that the Suns biggest need is to upgrade the center position rather than another shooting guard - even one as dominant as Kobe. In my book, if the Suns have the money to go after a big time FA or cap driven trade, it needs to be a center.

I'm glad that you think we agree, but apparently we don't agree on what conclusions there are to be drawn. I just don't think having a "name" center is that important. Even some of the teams who have one don't use him. It is demonstrably false that you need a dominant center to build a championship team, and I think the Suns are better off spending their money elsewhere.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm

I just don't think having a "name" center is that important. Even some of the teams who have one don't use him. It is demonstrably false that you need a dominant center to build a championship team, and I think the Suns are better off spending their money elsewhere.

You're changing the subject. I say I want a center who is one of the top 15-20 centers in the NBA. You say we don't need a "dominant" center, which I describe as meaning in the top four or five centers. How do we jump from saying the Suns need a middle tier center to claiming I'm insisting on a dominant one?

The Suns have two backup centers. Good backup centers, but hardly adequate for a team with aspirations to become an elite team. The Suns do not need a guy who can do 20 ppg and 10 rpg. What they need is a guy who can 10 rpg and 8 ppg, keep opposing centers out of the paint and block a couple of shots.
I'd settle for fewer points if the defense and rebounding is there.

I have no illusions about how difficult it may be to get such a player. It may take using the cap space, trading draft picks, and who knows what else. But the Suns have had 30+ years of trying to win without an adequate center. It doesn't work.

 

[sly fly]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
You're changing the subject. I say I want a center who is one of the top 15-20 centers in the NBA. You say we don't need a "dominant" center, which I describe as meaning in the top four or five centers. How do we jump from saying the Suns need a middle tier center to claiming I'm insisting on a dominant one?

The Suns have two backup centers. Good backup centers, but hardly adequate for a team with aspirations to become an elite team. The Suns do not need a guy who can do 20 ppg and 10 rpg. What they need is a guy who can 10 rpg and 8 ppg, keep opposing centers out of the paint and block a couple of shots.
I'd settle for fewer points if the defense and rebounding is there.

I have no illusions about how difficult it may be to get such a player. It may take using the cap space, trading draft picks, and who knows what else. But the Suns have had 30+ years of trying to win without an adequate center. It doesn't work.

They won with Mark West.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by sly fly
They won with Mark West.

Mark West was minimally adequate and they did not get the final prize. They got close when Oliver weighed less than a car. If Oliver had ever gotten into shape, the Suns might have won it all, but it didn't happen.

 

[elindholm]

You're changing the subject.

Hmm, could be. Sorry about that.

I say I want a center who is one of the top 15-20 centers in the NBA.

Then I say two things:

1. Voskuhl is fairly close to that level, if not actually there. He was outplayed by Greg Ostertag in one game, but overall I'd rather have Voskuhl, and I bet the Jazz would too.

2. I guarantee you that, if the Suns had the #15 center in the league (whoever that is), he'd still be missing from the floor sometimes in crunch time, depending on the situation. I'll bet you can't list more than 10 centers in the league who are reliably on the floor when the going gets rough.

 

[elindholm]

Mark West was minimally adequate and they did not get the final prize.

Mark West could have been 30% better and it wouldn't have made any difference. The Suns lost the '93 Finals because they weren't tough enough mentally

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
I'll bet you can't list more than 10 centers in the league who are reliably on the floor when the going gets rough.

Shaq
Yao
Magoire
Ratliff
Camby
Dampier
Brian Grant
Dalembert
Okur
Divac
Jeff Foster

What do I win?

 

[elindholm]

Shaq
Yao
Magoire
Ratliff
Camby
Dampier
Brian Grant
Dalembert
Okur
Divac
Jeff Foster

I guess I should have defined "reliably."

Okur, Foster, and Dalembert might be more effective than Voskuhl, but they're all in the same situation: they play only about half of each game, often not including crunch time. And if you consider Voskuhl "undersized," there's no way you can include Ratliff or Grant on that list. Brian Grant, are you kidding me?

So I'll change it. Ten centers who play at least 32 minutes per game (that's two-thirds) and who are, in terms of size and athleticism, at least as much "true" centers as the "undersized" Voskuhl.

I'll give you O'Neal, Magloire, Dampier, Yao, Camby, and Divac, even though Camby and Divac don't meet the minutes threshold. EDIT: Heck, I'll even throw in Brad Miller. Who else?

 

[newfan101]

Originally posted by elindholm
What are your thoughts, newfan? Is Suns management oblivious to the failure of its unorthodox approach

It's not "unorthodox." That's the point you've been missing all this time. Every NBA team has a tendency to go small if they don't have very good centers. Among today's big-name centers, both Ilgauskas and Yao are sometimes kept off the floor in crucial situations if their coaches don't think they provide the best matchups.

We all want the Suns to have a center who's so good that it would be unthinkable to have him off the floor during crunch time. But as those players are hard to come by, the Suns have two options:

1. Play mediocre centers because they are "centers," but for no other reason.

2. Develop makeshift lineups of more skilled players whose height limitations might be made up for by their other advantages.

For me personally, I'd rather see (1), as long as the season is lost anyway. What the heck, someone might develop into a real player.

But it is simply incorrect to describe (2) as "unorthodox." It is, in fact, what most teams do under the same circumstances, most of the time. And it can hardly be considered "tanking," since it is more likely to result in short-term success than (1) is.

It is, apparently, a deeply held conviction of yours that quality centers are just lurking out there, waiting to be employed, and the Suns shun them as a matter of philosophy. And yet, after all of these years, you have failed to produce a shred of evidence to support that charge. Instead, you have pointed to what we can all see -- that the Suns haven't won a title, that part of the reason they haven't won a title is that they've never had a great center, and that sometimes their center rotation is so weak as to not even warrant floor time. None of that addresses the fundamental issue.

You have made up your mind, but the rest of us have made up ours, too. The Suns don't use their centers more because their centers aren't very good. That's pretty much it. As I said before, I'd like to see them get minutes anyway, but that doesn't prevent me from understanding the reasons why it's not happening.

Thank you elindholm. You totally expressed my take on this. I get tired of rehashing the same arguments with BC, so you saved me the time.

I once knew a guy who complained about his stockbroker all the time, because his returns weren't what he expected. Even though he always made money, and hence never went to anyone else, all he could ever do was complain his portfolio wasn't 'diversified" enough. He never had anything technical to say, never mentioned stocks that were passed up except the obvious ones, and never considered market conditions. He just knew that he wasn't making as much as he felt he should, and he was positive it was because his portfolio wasn't "diversified." Drove me crazy.

BC is the basketball equivalent of that guy. He complains about the same thing in every post, uses the same meaningless phrases like "balanced offense", "playing the 5 best players at each position" "different managerial philosophy, "position of strength," etc.... without having any concrete solutions or even ideas of anything specific on what the Suns should do. He also never factors in the difficulty in getting quality big men and superstars, the two most critical parts of winning championships. It's always "the Suns are obsessed with being small because of Jerry's ego and they don't play their centers 48 minutes and therefore their lineup isn't traditional and balanced and their coaches are forced into this because of Jerry and that's why they haven't won it all and therefore they need new management." Enough already!

Since you are the most critical of management, BC, why don't you play manager for a second? What would you do as the Suns GM? SPECIFICALLY. Not "I would play a balanced offense from a position of strength." Look, I could field a perfectly balanced team bigger than most in the NBA simply by getting players off the NBA waiver wire and the CBA, and they wouldn't win squat. Or I could be the always balanced, always in the lottery Clippers. You need the horses to win.

So, BC, who would you trade for? Who would you keep? Which player do you like in the draft? What center is going to take your team to the championship? How are you going to get him? What GM would you hire to replace Brian Colangelo to make this happen? What coach would replace "small ball happy" DiAntoni. Who’s going to be your superstar? How are you going to do all this under the cap? These are questions everybody in this forum has answered except you. That includes people critical and not critical of Suns management.

It's easy to sit back and complain that their team isn't big enough, or can't win without a center. It's harder to offer constructive ideas on how to change that. Please, give us some names, some trade ideas, some GM's .... anything.... and then your complaining will at least have some merit.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
Shaq
Yao
Magoire
Ratliff
Camby
Dampier
Brian Grant
Dalembert
Okur
Divac
Jeff Foster

I guess I should have defined "reliably."

Okur, Foster, and Dalembert might be more effective than Voskuhl, but they're all in the same situation: they play only about half of each game, often not including crunch time. And if you consider Voskuhl "undersized," there's no way you can include Ratliff or Grant on that list. Brian Grant, are you kidding me?

So I'll change it. Ten centers who play at least 32 minutes per game (that's two-thirds) and who are, in terms of size and athleticism, at least as much "true" centers as the "undersized" Voskuhl.

I'll give you O'Neal, Magloire, Dampier, Yao, Camby, and Divac, even though Camby and Divac don't meet the minutes threshold. EDIT: Heck, I'll even throw in Brad Miller. Who else?

I jumped on it because you did not define your terms very closely.

Realistically, the big problem is that so many teams list their centers as PF's and then rotate the other position: Duncan, J. O'Neal, Garnett and perhaps Dirk come to mind immediately. The fact that 7 footers are called PF's makes this topic confusing.

Why do we call the high post player "center" and the low post/wing player PF? Tradition is about all I can figure. It does not necessarily define how the defensive matchups are made.

 

[Errntknght]

"It's easy to sit back and complain that their team isn't big enough, or can't win without a center. It's harder to offer constructive ideas on how to change that. Please, give us some names, some trade ideas, some GM's .... anything.... and then your complaining will at least have some merit."

Actually, it's not easy at all. I've been following the Suns since their inception and have been suffering greatly watching them field 'soft in the middle' teams year after year. If this went on for a decade you might attribute it to bad luck, and the Suns have had their share of that starting with the famous 'coin flip' for Jabbar. But after 35 years you have to think it's very highly probable the team's management has a problem with recognizing good big guys or they don't value them appropriately. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that JC & fils will not hire a coach who he doesn't 'own'. Besides, they've all been guard oriented.

In fact, things are improving somewhat - they finally hired a big man coach which many of us had bewailing the lack of for a good dozen years. Voskuhl and White are two of the best backup centers the team has ever had. That's a step in the right direction but think of what it means - guys like them are not that hard to find yet for years we had no one that tough. Mark West was in their league but he had to start because we didn't have a passable center. I do think this is a fair way to judge managements ability/commitment - the dominating centers don't show up often or move around much but there are lots of backup centers that become available so if a team is shorthanded at that slot most of the time it's their own doing.

I think the case of Brad Miller is instructive - the Suns were weak at center and it was known for a couple of years that Brad Miller was likely to leave Indiana as a FA. Had the Suns management done their job they'd have evaluated him thoroughly and made some salary moves to be in the running. Never gave it a thought, they were too busy overpaying little guys.

I think Lampe's inactivity is also indicative of the Suns light regard for the importance of bigs. D'A recognizes the guy has some talent and it's hard to overlook his size - and Mike says the most important thing for the rest of this year is developing the guys we have so we know where we stand. But Lampe, who is probably the most important guy on the team to develop, sits idle. It's like they have a blind spot. (And, please, no one bother telling me I can't know squat about Lampe because he's only played 17 minutes - I would say the same thing if I'd never seen him at all. What D'A and some players said about him plus his size is all I need to know - in fact, the day we got him I did say it.)

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Errntknght

Actually, it's not easy at all. I've been following the Suns since their inception and have been suffering greatly watching them field 'soft in the middle' teams year after year. If this went on for a decade you might attribute it to bad luck, and the Suns have had their share of that starting with the famous 'coin flip' for Jabbar. But after 35 years you have to think it's very highly probable the team's management has a problem with recognizing good big guys or they don't value them appropriately. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that JC & fils will not hire a coach who he doesn't 'own'. Besides, they've all been guard oriented.

Since I've lived in Phoenix for less than 10 years, I can't really comment on their entire history. I do think the Colangelos have a blind spot when it comes to big men, but I think it is more complicated than it might appear.

The biggest problem is that the Colangelos like a fast paced, up tempo game. They dislike the kind of slow down, defensive oriented - low post offense game that is best suited for the skills of most of the better big men. This means that they are generally unwilling to pay big bucks for defensive oriented low post center.

I don't think the Miller situation was created by the contracts of Marbury and Marion, but rather by the contracts of Penny and Googs. Since the Colangelos knew they could not get into the FA market, they were more concerned with keeping what they had.

A better example of their problem was the signing of Luc Longley. On paper, Luc was a good pickup. He was a good shooter, very good passer, blocked out on rebounding, and had success defensing guys like Shaq.

Even at the time I was skeptical of Luc. His rebounding numbers were not that good. He never had more than 6 rpg ever in his entire career. His stats indicate that he was foul prone even in Chicago where he was the benefit of the "Jordan Effect". But his last year in Chicago he averaged 11.4 ppg. He could score, but his weak rebounding and inability to defend without fouling doomed him in Phoenix.

The other major attempt to get a center was the infamous trade for John "Hot Rod" Williams. Williams struggled with health issues his entire time in Phoenix. His second year he actually grabbed 8.3 rpg, but only played in 68 games. His last year in Phoenix he averaged only 18.8 minutes.

Was the Williams trade a mistake? In retrospect it certainly proved to be. Should they have known at the time? It's hard to say. He had a history of injuries, but had been playing heavy minutes in Cleveland before coming to Phoenix. But he averaged 12.6 ppg his last season in Cleveland.

What do I make of this? I think the Colangelos tend to overvalue offensive skills in big men and underrate the importance defense and rebounding. It is a worrisome trend.

 

[newfan101]

Originally posted by Errntknght
"It's easy to sit back and complain that their team isn't big enough, or can't win without a center. It's harder to offer constructive ideas on how to change that. Please, give us some names, some trade ideas, some GM's .... anything.... and then your complaining will at least have some merit."

Actually, it's not easy at all. I've been following the Suns since their inception and have been suffering greatly watching them field 'soft in the middle' teams year after year. If this went on for a decade you might attribute it to bad luck, and the Suns have had their share of that starting with the famous 'coin flip' for Jabbar. But after 35 years you have to think it's very highly probable the team's management has a problem with recognizing good big guys or they don't value them appropriately. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that JC & fils will not hire a coach who he doesn't 'own'. Besides, they've all been guard oriented.

In fact, things are improving somewhat - they finally hired a big man coach which many of us had bewailing the lack of for a good dozen years. Voskuhl and White are two of the best backup centers the team has ever had. That's a step in the right direction but think of what it means - guys like them are not that hard to find yet for years we had no one that tough. Mark West was in their league but he had to start because we didn't have a passable center. I do think this is a fair way to judge managements ability/commitment - the dominating centers don't show up often or move around much but there are lots of backup centers that become available so if a team is shorthanded at that slot most of the time it's their own doing.

I've watched this team from the beginning as well. So when people like you and BC use blanket statements like "guard oriented," or "balanced offense," or "the Suns need a center," it surprises me even more. What dominating big man did they pass on? You would figure after 35 years they would have gotten a few, but research it out. I think you'd be surprised. And what solid, Brad Miller type center has led his team to a championship? Was he on a team without an elite superstar? Did that team hire a big man as a coach? Does the size of a coach matter? Is winning a championship based more on having a solid big man, or an elite superstar? It's these types of questions BC never answers specifically, and that's why his comments end up sounding like complaining for the sake of complaining.

Show me a team that didn't have a dominating center or Michael Jordan fall in their lap that won a championship, and then I'll understand the complaining better. I'll spot you the Pistons. But who else?

 

[sunsfn]

Actually the pistons had Bill Lambier, and I will tell you that very few NBA players wanted to drive the middle when he was there.
I saw more than a few players go to the floor when he was there.

Shaq is not available, and at present I do not know of a team wanting to trade their center that may be a top 15.

Clevelands center was supposedly available a while back but not know. He is mostly offense and not much defense.

If you do not have that dominating center, you need a dominating p. f. like Barkley. If the suns would have played any team but the Bulls they could have won the championship in 93. Also the jazz may have a couple championships without Jordan around!

I believe that the suns will only get an eventual top 10 - 15 center through the draft. This year there are some there but the top rated ones are foriegn players and very young and it will take a few years if they are to contribute, and then they may not really be centers. The one center that is truly a center is the one from Utah. (Rafael Araujo 6-11 260 C BYU Sr.) He is a senior and is climbing in the draft. There is Robert Swift 7-1 245 C Bakersfield, CA HSSr. and he did not play this year because he was ineligible.

If Amare continues to improve and becomes a force at p. f. and JJ, Marion, Barbosa, Vujanic, Zarko, and lampe can continue to improve, the suns will be able to make a run in a couple years.
However, It is very hard to do this without a shot blocker in the middle. As bad as Longley was for the suns, when he was in Chicago he blocked up the middle and did not have the bad ankles that he had by the time he played for the suns.

We can only hope for a good center some day.......

Maybe D'Antoni knows of one where he used to coach that could come over.?? Probably not.........