Long ways to go...

[elindholm]

But after 35 years you have to think it's very highly probable the team's management has a problem with recognizing good big guys or they don't value them appropriately.

I don't think that's fair. The Suns busted their asses to get Tsakalidis, who was quite highly regarded. As it turns out he was a bust, as most project big men are, but you can't fault the Suns for trying there.

When pressed to give an example of a recent case where the Suns passed on a big prospect, many people cite Carlos Boozer. Boozer is playing great, but he is absolutely not qualified to play center in the West. I think the Suns knew this, and they were already full at PF when Jacobsen was drafted instead.

I think the case of Brad Miller is instructive - the Suns were weak at center and it was known for a couple of years that Brad Miller was likely to leave Indiana as a FA.

No one, not even the Kings, thought that Miller would prove to be this effective as a power forward playing next to Divac. What everyone did know was that Miller had a spotty injury history and was already 27 years old. It's not like the league was knocking down his door trying to sign him. The Kings got lucky, and there is some skill behind the luck, but not so much as you are implying.

 

[elindholm]

Show me a team that didn't have a dominating center or Michael Jordan fall in their lap that won a championship, and then I'll understand the complaining better. I'll spot you the Pistons. But who else?

We've been over this before. The Larry Bird Celtics. Parrish was a good player, but I don't think anyone would call him a "dominating center."

 

[newfan101]

Originally posted by elindholm
Show me a team that didn't have a dominating center or Michael Jordan fall in their lap that won a championship, and then I'll understand the complaining better. I'll spot you the Pistons. But who else?

We've been over this before. The Larry Bird Celtics. Parrish was a good player, but I don't think anyone would call him a "dominating center."

I should have clarified it with "elite superstar."

 

[elindholm]

I should have clarified it with "elite superstar."

I completely agree there. A championship team needs an elite superstar, that's for sure.

But that player can play any position. It doesn't have to be center or power forward.

 

[fordronken]

To be perfectly honest, there is a better chance that Lampe will become the center we are looking for than there is of landing a current center that fits your guys' criteria.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm
I should have clarified it with "elite superstar."

I completely agree there. A championship team needs an elite superstar, that's for sure.

But that player can play any position. It doesn't have to be center or power forward.

That pretty much sums up the entire stance of half this board, including me, and you, Eric.

Great centers don't exactly grow on trees, but unfortunately some on this board believe they do, and think that the only reason we DON'T have one is because management is too inept to get one. They don't even take into consideration that they don't exist. AND they'd rather overpay for an injury-prone player--you'd think they'd have learned from Penny Hardaway, but it looks like, they never did.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by fordronken
To be perfectly honest, there is a better chance that Lampe will become the center we are looking for than there is of landing a current center that fits your guys' criteria.

And that, my friends, is pretty sad.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Chaplin

Great centers don't exactly grow on trees, but unfortunately some on this board believe they do, and think that the only reason we DON'T have one is because management is too inept to get one. They don't even take into consideration that they don't exist.

There aren't any great ones available. There are some adquate ones that would be a major improvement that are avaiable.

AND they'd rather overpay for an injury-prone player--you'd think they'd have learned from Penny Hardaway, but it looks like, they never did.

I'm not sure exactly what player you are referring to. Is there an adequate center that is not overpaid? How do you define "overpaid"?

The only solution on the history of injuries is to avoid long contracts. With his history, I would not offer Camby more than a two year deal. If he insists on more, then walk away. I wouldn't offer any FA a contract of more than four years.

 

[SweetD]

Maybe that is why it is taking Lampe so long to get some playing time. Looks like the Suns are trying to mold him into the Center they want.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by SweetD
Maybe that is why it is taking Lampe so long to get some playing time. Looks like the Suns are trying to mold him into the Center they want.

What do you mean "looks like"? The small amount of minutes he's had have been all PF minutes.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Chaplin
What do you mean "looks like"? The small amount of minutes he's had have been all PF minutes.

That is based on what the announcers discussed about how Lame looked in practice. But I agree, he has to get some more game experience.

 

[Wally]

Ok, let's say that there are not going to be a lot of "great centers". Tell me why we can't use average big guys like White or even Harvey to offer some size to a team that is getting beat-up night after night?
The obvious answer is, they’re not part of the future, BUT, does that mean we are stuck with watching small-ball for eternity? Could be. If we are so intent in getting this "core group" of players to work well together, they will never learn to play well when there is some size on the floor. On the other hand, if we are playing the small guys together to find out which combinations work well together, then it makes "some" sense.

With a small team playing well together, we will be out rebounded on a consistent basis, we will give up more points in the paint, and we damn well better figure out how to get Marion, Barbosa, Jacobson, Johnson & Eisley to hit the outside shot. Oh, yeah, we better get used to the early playoff exits (if we get lucky enough to make them).

I don't believe that playing the 5 best players together on a consistent basis is the right way to build a team that will contend for anything except a first round exit. The small guys have to learn how to play well with a couple of "bigs" on the floor at the same time. Find out which small guys work well together and rotate them in as pairs. If you can't get the "bigs" to work together, get another big that fits. Try the combos of Amare / White and Jake / Harvey. See if Lampe is going to fit in.
It won't do a damn bit of good to get a well oiled group of small guys playing well together if they can't work with a couple of 'bigs" who can defend the paint and rebound the ball. The idea of getting the small guy core group to play well together only makes sense if that's your plan for the future.

 

[Chaplin]

Aaah, ok.

As long as one of the "5 best players on the floor" is a center, then it's ok to go with the 5 best players. But if your fifth best player is not a center, then you shouldn't play the 5 best.

Flawed reasoning.

 

[elindholm]

That is based on what the announcers discussed about how Lame looked in practice.

LOL, Freudian slip.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by Chaplin
That pretty much sums up the entire stance of half this board, including me, and you, Eric.

Don't forget about me

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
Don't forget about me

And you Graham...

 

[newfan101]

Originally posted by Chaplin
That pretty much sums up the entire stance of half this board, including me, and you, Eric.

Great centers don't exactly grow on trees, but unfortunately some on this board believe they do, and think that the only reason we DON'T have one is because management is too inept to get one. They don't even take into consideration that they don't exist.

Boy did you sum that up perfectly. Put me in your group as well.

 

[F-Dog]

Originally posted by Errntknght
I think Lampe's inactivity is also indicative of the Suns light regard for the importance of bigs. D'A recognizes the guy has some talent and it's hard to overlook his size - and Mike says the most important thing for the rest of this year is developing the guys we have so we know where we stand. But Lampe, who is probably the most important guy on the team to develop, sits idle. It's like they have a blind spot. (And, please, no one bother telling me I can't know squat about Lampe because he's only played 17 minutes - I would say the same thing if I'd never seen him at all. What D'A and some players said about him plus his size is all I need to know - in fact, the day we got him I did say it.)

Before the draft, the Suns said that Lampe really needed another two years in Europe to develop. After they traded for him, they said he would need to 'redshirt' the rest of this year.

The fact that Lampe has played at all this year is a sign of rapid progress in the team's attitude, IMO.


And let's face it, Amare's return has thrown the team out of kilter. Lampe is younger, speaks less English, and is less talented. It would be great for Lampe to see lots of PT, but the Suns have other players who need to develop, too, and the best way for them to do that is to have five guys on the floor who all kind of know what's going on.

I trust that Lampe is being worked like a dog in practice, though.

 

[F-Dog]

Originally posted by Chaplin
That pretty much sums up the entire stance of half this board, including me, and you, Eric.

Great centers don't exactly grow on trees, but unfortunately some on this board believe they do, and think that the only reason we DON'T have one is because management is too inept to get one. They don't even take into consideration that they don't exist. AND they'd rather overpay for an injury-prone player--you'd think they'd have learned from Penny Hardaway, but it looks like, they never did.

The Suns aren't going to get a great center (unless they draft a player who's very young and years away from being useful, and get very lucky). But, I think they are going to need a good center to have any chance at a title, even if Amare turns out to be an elite superstar as we all expect.

 

[F-Dog]

Originally posted by fordronken
To be perfectly honest, there is a better chance that Lampe will become the center we are looking for than there is of landing a current center that fits your guys' criteria.

Well, I still like this kid Okur, who's 24 and is already looking like one of the top 15 centers in the league.

Everybody else here says that he's too expensive, though.

 

[elindholm]

Everybody else here says that he's too expensive, though.

That's not my objection. My objection is that Okur just isn't that good.

He scores reasonably well, but that's on a team that needs scoring -- he is not an efficient scorer, especially by center standards. (He has cut way back on his three-point shooting, but still has a very low overall FG%.) He does well on the offensive glass, which usually indicates quickness and a nose for the ball, but poorly on the defensive glass, which usually indicates poor blocking out and/or a lack of strength. I confess I don't watch the Pistons that much (some, but not a lot), but there has to be a reason that he plays less than 24 minutes per game. I suspect he is a poor defender, and that's with Ben Wallace backing him up.

In my opinion, this board's interest in Okur is a "grass is always greener" phenomenon.

 

[Chaplin]

And another valid question about Okur is what his statistics would be if Rebraca was healthy enough to play some minutes.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Originally posted by elindholm
Mark West was minimally adequate and they did not get the final prize.

Mark West could have been 30% better and it wouldn't have made any difference. The Suns lost the '93 Finals because they weren't tough enough mentally

They lost because Ced Ceballos was out with an injury. Ced's garbage points and rebounding would have taken some pressure off of Dan Majerle.

Chicago had unusually good luck with injuries during their run.

 

[F-Dog]

Originally posted by elindholm
In my opinion, this board's interest in Okur is a "grass is always greener" phenomenon.

It's not the whole board--just me.


I haven't seen enough of Detroit myself, but I saw enough to want to take a closer look--he looks bigger than Voskuhl and quick for a center, catches the ball well, and can score inside and outside. Also, Okur was a force in the Euro championships last summer; he scored 18 ppg and shot nearly 60% from the field.


I cruised a couple of Detroit boards to check out their fans' opinions, and this is what I got:

--it's casually assumed that the $6.5m the Pistons have cleared won't be enough to re-sign Okur, and the fans seem to be eager to get rid of one of their mid-salary players (Elden Campbell, Chucky Atkins, Corliss Williamson) to make sure the team keeps him around;
--Okur gets limited minutes because Larry Brown benches him whenever he makes a mistake (Brown is also responsible for the de-emphasis on 3-pointers, though)
--the team is better when Okur is on the floor (which you'd expect, since Brown doesn't play him when he's struggling)
--Elden Campbell sucks, and Zelly Rebraca is even worse.

Those are just the fans, though.


I like him because he's young enough to still be a prospect, but seems to have achieved competence already, which is a milestone that many 'talented' young centers never reach. I also think he'd be a good fit based on what I've seen of his game.

I prefer having an offense-minded center because I think it's easier to become an all-around center if you start out strong on the offensive end--strong offensive players seem to get more calls on the other end, for one thing.



OK, I'm done now--for the next couple of weeks, anyway.

 

[slinslin]

Why would we want Okur?

He is 6'11 likes to shoot 3s and some years older than Lampe.

I would rather have Camby even with the injury risks, they will cost about the same and Camby is a much better defender, rebounder, shotblocker and also pretty good offensivey when he gets the ball.

Camby 10rpg and 2.5bpg in 28mpg that is more efficient than Ben Wallace and against stronger West competition and steals are almost the same.

Camby
#2 in rebounds per 48
#5 in blocks per 48
#36 in steals per 48

A healthy Camby would be absolutely perfect for the Suns and much much better than Okur.