Love Marion's stat line

[cly2tw]

The reason why Marion is not good man-o-man defender is the same as why he is not a good go-to guy to score under contact, in traffic. He is not smooth! Also the same reason that he is not a Pippen type player beyond the fact that they both were complementary players.

A smooth player glides through, a non-smooth player like Marion jumps/hops on, the court. Marion is a special talent that he can fill the stats sheet without being smooth, but he always needs other people to create space for him. You can see that he won't be very useful in playoffs due to tight defense opponents play, which greatly reduces the space for the offense.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Chaplin
And this, my friends, marks the return of the "Penny Hardaway arguement", which from now on shall be known simply as the "Shawn Marion arguement".

Well, if you think this is the same as the "Penny Hardaway argument" I have already won. Shawn Marion brings a whole lot more to the table than Hardaway. By no means am I saying the situations are comparable. I'm just not so sure that Shawn Marion brings anything to this team that a small forward making half as much as him couldn't do.

Joe Mama

 

[slinslin]

Well I doubt we would get 9rpg from a SF who makes half as much.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
Well, if you think this is the same as the "Penny Hardaway argument" I have already won. Shawn Marion brings a whole lot more to the table than Hardaway. By no means am I saying the situations are comparable. I'm just not so sure that Shawn Marion brings anything to this team that a small forward making half as much as him couldn't do.

Joe Mama

Not that you're conceited or think you know better than anyone else or anything.

I wasn't arguing, was I? I was just making a clarification, is all.

 

[cly2tw]

Originally posted by slinslin
Well I doubt we would get 9rpg from a SF who makes half as much.

But you also get 5 mil more to sign other players meeting the team's need. The same amount money can be much better spent. And statistics is not so important. Marion is supposedly one of 3 best SF, based on statistics. But for many including me, he may rank only 6th or 7th, and not that much better than those ranked right behind him.

 

[F-Dog]

Originally posted by slinslin
Well I doubt we would get 9rpg from a SF who makes half as much.

And I doubt that SF would be in the top 10 in steals, or the top 20 in blocks.


Shouldn't we really call this the "Howard Eisley argument"? Since Eisley is now the most overpaid Suns player...

 

[JCSunsfan]

Originally posted by F-Dog

Shouldn't we really call this the "Howard Eisley argument"? Since Eisley is now the most overpaid Suns player...

Not while Googs and Dice sit at the end of the bench getting DNP's.

I don't know if I want to get into this argument. Let me just say that I am glad Shawn Marion is on my team, and I am not overly concerned about his salary.

I would only be willing to trade him for a very few players in this league and I am sure there is not a free agent this summer that we could get for the same money that would contribute as much to the win column as Shawn does.

Enjoy watching the man play, good grief!

For people who've played the game or know much about the game, he is a real pleasure to watch. You'll really take all the joy out of it if you keep thinking about how much money he makes.

 

[F-Dog]

Originally posted by JCSunsfan
Not while Googs and Dice sit at the end of the bench getting DNP's.

Googs and Dice are still on the team?

 

[Chaz]

Originally posted by F-Dog
Shouldn't we really call this the "Howard Eisley argument"? Since Eisley is now the most overpaid Suns player...

LOL

I think this is currently the Tom Gugliotta argument.

 

[slinslin]

Eisley is probably the worst player though.

His assists/turnover ratio of under 1 and his blown layups are pretty annoying.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I am a believer of getting the best players, not a big deep bench of good players.

Portland has done nothing with a deep bench of good players.

Get your stars...assemble good and cheap roleplayers....win.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Chaplin


Not that you're conceited or think you know better than anyone else or anything.

I wasn't arguing, was I? I was just making a clarification, is all.

Where is this coming from? Chap, you said, "shouldn't we call this the Penny Hardaway argument?" I replied that if this is the equivalent of the Penny Hardaway situation I've already won. I fail to see how that makes me conceited or thinking I know better than anyone.



Not that you still haven't learned how to read and interpret someone's post before you respond rudely to it.

Slin, I should not have written that someone making half as much as Shawn Marion could do as much. That's probably not true. But I'm still not sure the Suns couldn't get a player making half as much as him that can give the Suns everything they need from a small forward.

But alas, my promise to shut up about Shawn Marion's salary as long as he doesn't revert back to his poor play and his accuracy from the field continues to rise.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
Where is this coming from? Chap, you said, "shouldn't we call this the Penny Hardaway argument?" I replied that if this is the equivalent of the Penny Hardaway situation I've already won. I fail to see how that makes me conceited or thinking I know better than anyone.



Not that you still haven't learned how to read and interpret someone's post before you respond rudely to it.


Joe Mama

Hmm. Are you trying to get back at me, or are you also being cynical? Hard to tell since smileys no longer mean that someone is joking around or not...

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Hmm. Are you trying to get back at me, or are you also being cynical? Hard to tell since smileys no longer mean that someone is joking around or not...

I did what smiley faces around it just like you did. I guess that means we're just joking around right? I didn't think I was being conceited or acting like a knowing all, but as long as you put the smiley faces around it, it wasn't supposed to bother me anyways.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
I did what smiley faces around it just like you did. I guess that means we're just joking around right? I didn't think I was being conceited or acting like a knowing all, but as long as you put the smiley faces around it, it wasn't supposed to bother me anyways.

Joe Mama

That was the intent. If you took offense, sorry. Surprised, but sorry.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Chaplin
That was the intent. If you took offense, sorry. Surprised, but sorry.

Smiley faces or not, it just seemed to come out of nowhere. I think and maybe a little defensive tonight because I really do like the direction this team is headed, yet I keep coming across really negatively.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
Smiley faces or not, it just seemed to come out of nowhere. I think and maybe a little defensive tonight because I really do like the direction this team is headed, yet I keep coming across really negatively.

Joe Mama

I was wondering where all this was coming from. You've been so good lately.

We went through this whole debate a few weeks ago and I'm not sure why it got started again as a debate other than the belief that max guys need to be first choice offensive guys or big men. If you believe that, then Shawn is a mistake. If you believe that is not necessary, then Shawn is a good player to have. Since this is based on opinion rather than fact, it is a hopeless discussion.

 

[SunsTzu]

Originally posted by scotsman13
ok i will throw in on this. marion is a better all round player in that he gets blocked shots, steals, rebounds and does a good job scoring. marion a better team defender. marion is a superstar in the team play doing the little things to help his team win a game.

jj on the other hand is better at creating offense for himself and others. jj is a better one on one defender. right now with the ball in jj hands the teams offensive runs easier and freer then what it did before. the team seems to have moved into an area where they are move of 5 good basketball players on the floor then one super good player and the rest of the team.


i dont want to bash marbury but it is seeming like that the team is playing better team ball since he has leave. why i am not really sure expect we dont see so many run down the court and throw up a 3 pointer with 20 second left on the shoot clock.

This is pretty much what i was trying to say only you were able to do it much more clearly

Also I'd just like to clear up, I do not think Marion is over paid since he would have gotten a max from somewhere else if not here. I only expressed concern since his numbers have slipped and he is supposed to still be getting better since he is still a few years away from his peak.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by SunsTzu
This is pretty much what i was trying to say only you were able to do it much more clearly

Also I'd just like to clear up, I do not think Marion is over paid since he would have gotten a max from somewhere else if not here. I only expressed concern since his numbers have slipped and he is supposed to still be getting better since he is still a few years away from his peak.

Everyone agrees that Marion has been having an off year until lately. I suspect that his bulking up over the summer hurt his shot mechanics and then he received a lot more defensive attention when Amare was out. In any case, I have never believed that he had suddenly lost his talent and stopped being able to play like he did a year.

I think that this summer the Suns will need to make sure that all the players get more skills coachig including Shawn. If he needs to learn to become "smoother", I suspect there are drills he could be working on to do just that. Mike D'Antoni coached in Europe and knows how they stress skills development, so maybe he will be able to do some of that here.

 

[Joe Mama]

I'll preface this by saying again that I really do like Shawn Marion. Most of the time I'm very happy that he is with the Phoenix Suns. It's really not his offense that makes me think he is not a maximum contract player. If he was a great defender I wouldn't complain about the money, but he's not. He puts up some nice statistics defensively, but the bigger 3's post him up. Others should show him the ball to get him in the air and go right by him.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
I'll preface this by saying again that I really do like Shawn Marion. Most of the time I'm very happy that he is with the Phoenix Suns. It's really not his offense that makes me think he is not a maximum contract player. If he was a great defender I wouldn't complain about the money, but he's not. He puts up some nice statistics defensively, but the bigger 3's post him up. Others should show him the ball to get him in the air and go right by him.

Joe Mama

I don't think any of the Suns do a first rate job of man defense. I blame their obsession with double teaming which takes away from what they need to really focus on: moving their feet, keeping vision on the opponent and the ball, not leaving their feet when facing the opponent. Shawn is like a lot of leapers - leapers like to leap and need to learn when to do it and when not to.

I have not seen enough oppoents back down Shawn in the post to consider it a major concern. But I do think he is too focused on getting steals and not on positioning.

Is it Shawn or inadequate coaching? I'm not sure the Suns work enough on defense. Maybe they need a defense guru.