LSH on kickoff returns

[Totally_Red]

I love this kid on special teams, especially the coverage units, but can we pleeeeease replace him as the primary returner on kickoffs. More often than not, he fields the ball 2-3 yards deep and fails to make the 20 yard line. Is there no one else on the team that can fill the role? It is painful to watch, and if anything he is regressing.

Like I said, I like him as a third down back and on coverage units, just not as the primary KOR.

 

[CardLogic]

Some Perspective:

LSH has 30 KR's his average is 22.8 yards per return.

There are 8 players with 30 KR's or more, they average 25.8 yards per return.
There are 25 players with 20 KR's or more, they average 25.1 yards per return.

Among the best, Percy Harvin and Ted Ginn have two TD each on KR's and they average roughly 30 yards per return each.​

Now obviously LSH is not among the best KR's this season. But is you look at the big picture his average has been only 3 yards per return than less than average, with zero fumbles.

3 yards per return - not a very big issue, imo.

 

[PJ1]

I agree he is not the answer on returns. He should never run it out of the endzone as he barely makes it back the 20 most times. Strong breeze knocks him down.

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

I'll take the ball all day long at the 17 yard line with zero fumbles, as opposed to 3 or more fumbles a year with a chance to take it to the house once or so..

Losing the ball on that end usually results in huge momentum swings.

That said.. it would be nice to see someone a little more dynamic back there.. IF he has good hands.

 

[Shane]

Some Perspective:

LSH has 30 KR's his average is 22.8 yards per return.

There are 8 players with 30 KR's or more, they average 25.8 yards per return.
There are 25 players with 20 KR's or more, they average 25.1 yards per return.

Among the best, Percy Harvin and Ted Ginn have two TD each on KR's and they average roughly 30 yards per return each.​

Now obviously LSH is not among the best KR's this season. But is you look at the big picture his average has been only 3 yards per return than less than average, with zero fumbles.

3 yards per return - not a very big issue, imo.

Agreed!

 

[JeffGollin]

The Phantom Tackler

It only seems fitting that someone named LaRod Stephens-Howling should fall victim to the "invisible tackler" who repeatedly caused him to fall to the ground without otherwise being hit returning kickoffs yesterday.

It had to be a ghost tackler - a phantom tackler - to make LSH fall down that way on nearly every return.

 

[Russ Smith]

Some Perspective:

LSH has 30 KR's his average is 22.8 yards per return.

There are 8 players with 30 KR's or more, they average 25.8 yards per return.
There are 25 players with 20 KR's or more, they average 25.1 yards per return.

Among the best, Percy Harvin and Ted Ginn have two TD each on KR's and they average roughly 30 yards per return each.​

Now obviously LSH is not among the best KR's this season. But is you look at the big picture his average has been only 3 yards per return than less than average, with zero fumbles.

3 yards per return - not a very big issue, imo.

My issues with him on returns are as follows.

He doesn't know when to take a knee, as others have said when he catches it back in the endzone and runs it out, he often seems to not even get to the 20. Now if you catch it 5 yards deep and make the 18, that's a 23 yard return in the stats, but it's a minus 2 yard return in my mind because taking a knee puts us at the 20.

When he does take it out he doesn't seem to be able to make any "extra" yardage. If the hole is there he hits it, sometimes, but he never gets yards that weren't there from blocking, and he goes down too easily.

What I do like is he hasn't fumbled. I think at this point we're pretty much stuck with him returning them for the year, there really isn't anybody else on the roster I'd want to see back there, but next year I hope we have a better returner and he's just covering kicks where he's excellent.

 

[Russ Smith]

It only seems fitting that someone named LaRod Stephens-Howling should fall victim to the "invisible tackler" who repeatedly caused him to fall to the ground without otherwise being hit returning kickoffs yesterday.

It had to be a ghost tackler - a phantom tackler - to make LSH fall down that way on nearly every return.

Wolfley called it "the turf monster."

 

[Doug]

He's another of the GREAT finds from this ARIZONA scouting crew that is finding diamonds in the rough everywhere.This last years draft may go down in CARDINALS history once everyone is well and contributing as they will be one day. To get Larod Stephens Howling in the 7th round and not a free agent was great.Let him continue what he's doing.WE don't have the kick returner of the future yet to replace him and it allows him to stay ready for his set plays he has on 3rd down.I'm sorry I can deal with it.

Can I just say that to pick Will Davis from Illinois the round before was awesome to find a play that JUST MAY fit our defense.I never expected it to happen.We have yet to open the Herman Johnson can of whoop azz that we'll probably see next year as a great pass protector with those poles as arms that coach Lott is working on right now.

Greg Toler will be a starting CB in two years alongside DRC and making us have one of the youngest and fastest talented group of jumping CB's in the league.AWESOME.Rashad Johnson is not forgotten but has quite a few more lessons to learn as FS is the hardest position on defense to learn in the NFL bar none.Rolle has finally started to get it down after all this time.Yet we may lose him next year.

Cody Brown as expected from a group that begins with a brand new Beanie Wells has to be the MONSTER we are all hoping for once Lott gets through with him.I'm expecting Great things from Cody next year.I don't want to see just a delayed rookie year from him.Much more will be asked of him.Stay healthy is first.No more setbacks.

What a freakin awesome draft that was.Who cares who we missed.Lets just focus on who we got.Maybe even a free agent kick returner from FSU will show up after his offseason injury next year.We all know about him also.

The HOWLER is waiting to show his stuff in the playoffs.No need to get excited yet.

 

[Bert]

I have no complaints about him other than that he's been very average thus far on returns and I think after what he did in the preseason we all expected him to be more of a spark on special teams.

I still find myself thinking he can bust one on every kickoff, only to see him go down on the 25 but hey, I'll take it.

 

[Totally_Red]

My issues with him on returns are as follows.

He doesn't know when to take a knee, as others have said when he catches it back in the endzone and runs it out, he often seems to not even get to the 20. Now if you catch it 5 yards deep and make the 18, that's a 23 yard return in the stats, but it's a minus 2 yard return in my mind because taking a knee puts us at the 20.

When he does take it out he doesn't seem to be able to make any "extra" yardage. If the hole is there he hits it, sometimes, but he never gets yards that weren't there from blocking, and he goes down too easily.

What I do like is he hasn't fumbled. I think at this point we're pretty much stuck with him returning them for the year, there really isn't anybody else on the roster I'd want to see back there, but next year I hope we have a better returner and he's just covering kicks where he's excellent.

I went back and checked J.J. Arrington. He was very average or even below average in 2007 with about the same average as LSH. In 2008, he dramatically improved his average and had the return for touchdown against Dallas.

I agree we are stuck with him, but I just wish he'd down the ball if he catches it in the end zone. The majority of the time he doesn't get back to the 20.

 

[Doug]

We had three drives over 78 yards yesterday in the first half.SO it does'nt really matter.We just use more clock on the opposing team and we will eventually score.Its just a matter of time.Its great that he can make sure no fumbles occur.Thats the key.I think he has a couple of 30 yard returns still left in him this season.

Lets not bash our 7th round contributor that is gonna be a major player for us in the future as a third down weapon.All these receptions of the ball are great practice for him.I can't wait to see how he turns out over his counterpart who plays for the eagles in McCoy.When McCoy went down Pittsburgh never missed a beat with LSH as the main running back.The old Chicago Bears coach is doing okay coaching for the Pitt.Panthers.They are gonna produce NFL ready players.Wandstadt finally found a home.LOL.

 

[joeshmo]

Some Perspective:

LSH has 30 KR's his average is 22.8 yards per return.

There are 8 players with 30 KR's or more, they average 25.8 yards per return.
There are 25 players with 20 KR's or more, they average 25.1 yards per return.

Among the best, Percy Harvin and Ted Ginn have two TD each on KR's and they average roughly 30 yards per return each.​

Now obviously LSH is not among the best KR's this season. But is you look at the big picture his average has been only 3 yards per return than less than average, with zero fumbles.

3 yards per return - not a very big issue, imo.

Not sure I agree with that arguement. The difference between a good Running back and a below average one is only tenths of a yard. 3.5 compared to 4.2. What your stats tell me is that compared to the rest of the NFL he is one of the worst. And that is how you tell if someone is bad or not, compare them to the rest of the NFL. Its a comparitive league. If your #32 in the league coaches dont care if you are only 3 yards from being in the top 10, they want to know, "How can I be in the top 10". If someone is ranked 1st in the NFL they are the best, if someone is ranked in the low 20's they are one of the worst, doesnt matter if they are only seperated by 1 or 10 yards. In a game of inches you better believe coaches are searching for those 150 yards per year they can gain just by getting a returner that can go 25 yards instead of 22.

It isnt just 3 yards left on the field per kickoff, its his complete lack of even looking close to being able to break a long one. There is ZERO danger factor for the opposing team when he gets his hands on the ball. Plus just watching the guy return kicks he just looks plain old horrible at it, dont need stats to see that.

Plus the fumbles thing doesnt say much considering most return men in the NFL dont fumble. Most have 1 or 0 fumbles so far.

 

[joeshmo]

We had three drives over 78 yards yesterday in the first half.SO it does'nt really matter.

But, can you expect even the greatest of offenses to do that every time
in every game against much better defenses then the Rams?

 

[TJ]

Ask Cincinnati about fumbles on kickoffs and how they can kill a game. Proof that you can lose to the worst teams in the NFL with undisciplined special teams play.

I do think that LSH needs to improve on KOR. But what about the blocking?? I don't see many lanes for him to attack. It could be rookie unawareness, but still the blockers are part of the equation too.

 

[joeshmo]

Just on a side note - Some thought the abolishment of the wedge this season would ruin kickoff returns, I myself being one of them. In reality kickoff return averages are actually a full yard better this year then last. Also the NFL has already matched last years TD total with a full 6 weeks to go. Just thought that was interesting.

 

[Treefiddy]

Some Perspective:

LSH has 30 KR's his average is 22.8 yards per return.

There are 8 players with 30 KR's or more, they average 25.8 yards per return.
There are 25 players with 20 KR's or more, they average 25.1 yards per return.

Among the best, Percy Harvin and Ted Ginn have two TD each on KR's and they average roughly 30 yards per return each.​

Now obviously LSH is not among the best KR's this season. But is you look at the big picture his average has been only 3 yards per return than less than average, with zero fumbles.

3 yards per return - not a very big issue, imo.

3 yards x 30 returns is 90 yards. That turns into a lot when you're in a game of field position. Why should we accept below-average for any position on our team?

No fumbles is nice, but Boldin would never fumble if he went down to the first hit everytime.

Kindof makes me wonder how Michael Ray Garvin would be doing if he didn't get hurt and miraculously made the team.

 

[Doug]

But, can you expect even the greatest of offenses to do that every time
in every game against much better defenses then the Rams?

Since I don't see anyone on our roster this year thats gonna change the head coaches mind to be put back to return kicks in the 11th game of the season.We are what we are.

You asked the wrong guy when you ask if I think the CARDINALS can take any 80 yards and drive them and make obscene first downs with them.Thats Warners favorite.We did'nt have the big drive killing penalties that some refs would have called on yesterdays game.Yes the rams were close to a college team but I don't see any team that is more awesome than the colts that we already have played,and they have lost more starters for the season since we played them last and won't be getting them back.They have what they have just like us.

I'm sure we'll play them differently in Miami this year.It will be a totally different game than the Sunday Night game we fumbled twice early on and did'nt get the early lead as we would have liked.

Maybe Garvin is the answer for the team next season and can add a couple returns during the year for td's.He'll surely be given his chance.Right now we are what we are and I sincerly doubt you'll see any change all the way into and through Miami.

Just so you know what I think about the long field and all.It will keep our defense off the field.Then they can cause a turnover and give us that short field that we can normally score in 3 plays or less when needed.

I have no fear when it comes to this team.I see the vikes as the best NFC team with many cracks you'll see next week when the saints play the Pats and then I see the colts in the SB.I'm really easy on this topic.

We've got the offense that loves to do everything.A slow methodical yardage eating machine that takes no prisoners and without a horrible ref call can weather any storm.Especially under playoff conditions.ROAD WARRIORS "09". DESERT STORM TO ARRIVE IN MIAMI!!!

 

[JeffGollin]

Since I don't see anyone on our roster this year thats gonna change the head coaches mind to be put back to return kicks...

Actually, I was kind of thinking...Alan Branch.

 

[Carddan]

Doesn't LSH lead the team in ST tackles?

 

[CardLogic]

Not sure I agree with that arguement. The difference between a good Running back and a below average one is only tenths of a yard. 3.5 compared to 4.2. What your stats tell me is that compared to the rest of the NFL he is one of the worst. And that is how you tell if someone is bad or not, compare them to the rest of the NFL. Its a comparitive league. If your #32 in the league coaches dont care if you are only 3 yards from being in the top 10, they want to know, "How can I be in the top 10". If someone is ranked 1st in the NFL they are the best, if someone is ranked in the low 20's they are one of the worst, doesnt matter if they are only seperated by 1 or 10 yards. In a game of inches you better believe coaches are searching for those 150 yards per year they can gain just by getting a returner that can go 25 yards instead of 22.

It isnt just 3 yards left on the field per kickoff, its his complete lack of even looking close to being able to break a long one. There is ZERO danger factor for the opposing team when he gets his hands on the ball. Plus just watching the guy return kicks he just looks plain old horrible at it, dont need stats to see that.

Plus the fumbles thing doesnt say much considering most return men in the NFL dont fumble. Most have 1 or 0 fumbles so far.

Good points, joe. You have hit on the biggest issue with LSH returning kicks; it isn't the 3 yards though. The biggest problem is that LSH hasn't been able to get any additonal yardage after contact, he goes down too easily. That is the biggest factor in the 3 yard shortage, imo.

But... Regarding the fumbles, it's a huge factor, as one fumble down there can easily mean the difference between a win vs. a loss. That is also why Breaston is returning punts still, his sure-handedness, not his return yardage. Breaston's average, at 7.0 per return, is 17th out of the top 20 in number of returns. (Reggie Bush is surprisingly at 3.8 average, only two less attempts than Breaston.)

3 yards x 30 returns is 90 yards. That turns into a lot when you're in a game of field position. Why should we accept below-average for any position on our team?

Ridiculous use of statistics - The Cardinals average 3 KR's per game that's nine yards not 90...

I am not saying that the KR's should not be better, but it's a minor issue, and not one to be overly concerned with.

 

[PJ1]

Doesn't LSH lead the team in ST tackles?

This thread is about him returning kicks. Don't believe anyone is questioning his special teams contribution otherwise.

 

[Cardiac]

Put Beanie back to return KO's. Now that would scare opponents.

 

[Early]

Some Perspective:

LSH has 30 KR's his average is 22.8 yards per return.

There are 8 players with 30 KR's or more, they average 25.8 yards per return.
There are 25 players with 20 KR's or more, they average 25.1 yards per return.

Among the best, Percy Harvin and Ted Ginn have two TD each on KR's and they average roughly 30 yards per return each.​

Now obviously LSH is not among the best KR's this season. But is you look at the big picture his average has been only 3 yards per return than less than average, with zero fumbles.

3 yards per return - not a very big issue, imo.

3 yards on each kickoff is HUGE difference. I don't know if you are aware of it, but only few yards difference has suprising effect in succes rate of the following drive. There was a study done on that matter, i could find you the article ...

If that happens for a whole season, several drives per game... Yes, it is considerable number of points we are talking about here in the long run

When you start close to 30 yard line, its a huge statistical help for the coming drive

Not only that....but alsofor the drives that dont work, it means that you punt from a few yards better position, which means that the opposing team start deeper in their own half, thus there is an advantage even on the drives that dont succeed

So it's a double advantage: on drives that work (there are more of those with better reutrns) and on drives that dont work (the opposing teams following drive will have a lower succesrate)

If we are talking about one drive here in one game...Sure few yards have no statistical meaning at all...But WHOLE season??? We are talking about arround 100 returns or something.... Its 300 yards in its own... Its a huge difference and there are clear cut evidence of that how much it impacts succes rate of drives over a whole season


What i was hoping the most was that Garvin got a shot. This is because of his word class speed. Then, the blocking schemes could be designed to fit his style a bit differently as almost to guarantee a 30 yard position.

Now we are in position where try to break the big run, but most of the time we end up arround 20 yard line ...I would be fine with that if we broke the long run sometimes, but we never do

I would rather have a 30 yard position and take away that long threath...Garvin was never that elusive runner (or the one that breaks tackles) that could give you a long return for TD but throughout college he shown the great ability to come arround the 30 yard line ..despite no long TDs ability, he was still ranked at the top in average return...Which means his consistency was amazing, and that is alone on his speed

It has huge effect on the blocking assignments who is returner, the speed the guy has, and how elusive he is...Right now there is no chemistry between LSH and the blocking upfront

LSH does none of things so far. He does not consistently get past 25 yard line, and i really dont see him being that elusive so he can make that long run once in a while, to justify the bad average on most returns

Things might change and he might get better, but so far, he has been very dissapointing IMO.

We can just as well put Rolle in there. He will also give you a bad average on most downs, but im sure he will break a long one here and there to justify for that. He is so elusive, it's scary. The blocked Kick return..That was pure art...it was not football, it was art...

I would love to see Benie return kicks... I would put him in there if it was me... he has amazing speed and he could break alot of tackles to gets some yards after contact .. And he is not a starting back so he could take the load

I would also try Urban, the guy is maybe the fastest on this team. Yes faster than DRC... I think he run a 4.2 earlier... Probably wont get you any yards after contact or miss anyone, but his speed alone could bring him longer than LSH does

 

[Cardiac]

3 yards on each kickoff is HUGE difference. I don't know if you are aware of it, but only few yards difference has suprising effect in succes rate of the following drive. There was a study done on that matter, i could find you the article ...

If that happens for a whole season, several drives per game... Yes, it is considerable number of points we are talking about here in the long run

When you start close to 30 yard line, its a huge statistical help for the coming drive

Not only that....but alsofor the drives that dont work, it means that you punt from a few yards better position, which means that the opposing team start deeper in their own half, thus there is an advantage even on the drives that dont succeed

So it's a double advantage: on drives that work (there are more of those with better reutrns) and on drives that dont work (the opposing teams following drive will have a lower succesrate)

If we are talking about one drive here in one game...Sure few yards have no statistical meaning at all...But WHOLE season??? We are talking about arround 100 returns or something.... Its 300 yards in its own... Its a huge difference and there are clear cut evidence of that how much it impacts succes rate of drives over a whole season

All Great Points.

What i was hoping the most was that Garvin got a shot. This is because of his word class speed. Then, the blocking schemes could be designed to fit his style a bit differently as almost to guarantee a 30 yard position.

Now we are in position where try to break the big run, but most of the time we end up arround 20 yard line ...I would be fine with that if we broke the long run sometimes, but we never do

I would rather have a 30 yard position and take away that long threath...Garvin was never that elusive runner (or the one that breaks tackles) that could give you a long return for TD but throughout college he shown the great ability to come arround the 30 yard line ..despite no long TDs ability, he was still ranked at the top in average return...Which means his consistency was amazing, and that is alone on his speed

It has huge effect on the blocking assignments who is returner, the speed the guy has, and how elusive he is...Right now there is no chemistry between LSH and the blocking upfront

LSH does none of things so far. He does not consistently get past 25 yard line, and i really dont see him being that elusive so he can make that long run once in a while, to justify the bad average on most returns

Things might change and he might get better, but so far, he has been very dissapointing IMO.

Again All Great Points.

We can just as well put Rolle in there. He will also give you a bad average on most downs, but im sure he will break a long one here and there to justify for that. He is so elusive, it's scary. The blocked Kick return..That was pure art...it was not football, it was art...

Rolle is amazing when it's sudden change of possession. O-linemen are not as fast and not good at making open field tackles. Against ST's coverage units he isn't so magical.

I would love to see Benie return kicks... I would put him in there if it was me... he has amazing speed and he could break alot of tackles to gets some yards after contact .. And he is not a starting back so he could take the load



I would also try Urban, the guy is maybe the fastest on this team. Yes faster than DRC... I think he run a 4.2 earlier... Probably wont get you any yards after contact or miss anyone, but his speed alone could bring him longer than LSH does

I bet my left kidney that DRC wins any race with Urban. 10 yds all the way to 100 yds. Urban scares me with the ball in his hands. He scares me when he is simply trying to get the ball in his hands.

I vote a BIG NO on Urban returning kicks.