Marbury can't win

[cardsunsfan]

I feel sorry for the guy. He scores 45 points on 12-22 shooting and 6-8 on threes, 6 rebounds 1 steal and 10 assists! and hits 15-16 free throws. How can you lose with a statline like that?! It's amazing... What is his ajusted fieldgoal % after including free throws and three pointers? It's got to be over 75, probably like 85% and to get 10 assists and 6 rebounds as a point guard?

 

[overseascardsfan]

How do you lose with a stat line like that? You just answered your question. He had a great game but did anybody else? That just proves one man can't win a basketball game by himself, it's a team sport. He had good numbers for us but others relied on him and he didn't trust in his teammates because he is a shoot first point guard. Plus the rest of their team isn't that great to give him some credit.

 

[elindholm]

he didn't trust in his teammates because he is a shoot first point guard

You read the part about his having ten assists, right?

 

[George O'Brien]

Marbury had a number of games like this with the Suns. When he is on, he is amazing. But when he is off, he will brick you out of the game.

BTW, Marbury has always been able to get a lot of assists because of his ability to drive and kick the ball out. He would get a lot more if Alan Houston was ever healthy. However, Marbury does not get a lot of assists on entry to passes to the low post, back door plays, alley oop plays, cutters to the basket, or on the fast break. But surround him with a bunch of jump shooters and he will lead the league in assists.

 

[cepstrum]

I've always liked marbs and his game so I think that some of the criticism is pretty harsh. I honestly don't think that he's been on a team that utilizes his skills appropriately with the exception of Minnesota (unfortenately for him, he screwed that up). He's always been on either really crappy teams (nets) or athletic teams that want to run, but dont have jump shooters (knicks, suns). He's NOT an open court point guard, that is for sure, but I hate to call the guy a plain looser. I don't think the loosing is all (or most) of his fault.

 

[elindholm]

I've always liked marbs and his game so I think that some of the criticism is pretty harsh.

Not only is it harsh, but it's not based in fact. The only objective criticism that can be leveled against Marbury is that he has been on bad teams. Takes too many shots on his own? The best player on the team will almost always take the most shots, including Kidd on the Nets teams that went to the Finals? Doesn't shoot well overall? He's above average for first-option guards in the league. Takes too many ill-advised threes? Check out Baron Davis. Gets most of his assists off of his own penetration? So what, as long as he gets them.

I didn't love Marbury on the Suns, but I have no respect at all for people who saddle him with meaningless labels. Criticizing Marbury and his game should rise above the level of sandlot name-calling, but it doesn't. People say "selfish" or "shoot-first" and think they've actually made a point.

 

[George O'Brien]

I've always liked marbs and his game so I think that some of the criticism is pretty harsh. I honestly don't think that he's been on a team that utilizes his skills appropriately with the exception of Minnesota (unfortenately for him, he screwed that up). He's always been on either really crappy teams (nets) or athletic teams that want to run, but dont have jump shooters (knicks, suns). He's NOT an open court point guard, that is for sure, but I hate to call the guy a plain looser. I don't think the loosing is all (or most) of his fault.

It is a team game, so it is hard for one guy to win it but easy for any guy to lose it.

I agree that Marbury has not been a good fit on the teams he's played with. The Nets were overwhelmed by injuries when he was there. The Suns were in the midst of rebuilding when here. But the criticism he gets is not entirely unjustified. It boils down to this:

-- Marbury dominates the ball and wastes too much time dribbling around.

-- Marbury will continue to try to attack the basket even when it is clear the opponent is prepared to double team him.

-- Marbury only passes after he penitrates, so his teammates end up standing around hoping to get a pass.

-- Marbury is not effective in the open court which negates having athletes who can run.

-- Marbury is not effective at getting the ball inside, even when he has a stud like Stoudemire available.

-- Marbury is not a very good outside shooter, but he takes too many early three pointers when no one is in position to get offensive rebounds.

-- On offense, Marbury plays like an SG, but he cannot defend opponent's SG's.

I can imagine a team where Marbury might thrive, but it is obvious that Issah Thomas has no clue.

 

[elindholm]

-- Marbury dominates the ball and wastes too much time dribbling around.

"Wastes" is subjective. Kidd and Nash also handle the ball a lot and sometimes are stuck with it late in the shot clock.

-- Marbury will continue to try to attack the basket even when it is clear the opponent is prepared to double team him.

And he'll often get there anyway. Do you have any evidence that Marbury shoots a lower percentage, or gets to the free-throw line less often, late in games? Maybe we should compare him to Stoudemire, who almost single-handedly lost the Houston game by stubbornly going at Yao over and over.

-- Marbury only passes after he penitrates, so his teammates end up standing around hoping to get a pass.

Teammates standing around is a problem for every point guard in the league, including Nash. When Marbury's teammates with the Suns moved without the ball, the whole offense ran more efficiently. It's not Marbury's fault that most NBA players stay rooted in one place on the floor, regardless of who their PG is.

-- Marbury is not effective in the open court which negates having athletes who can run.

True, Marbury is not a very good open-court player.

-- Marbury is not effective at getting the ball inside, even when he has a stud like Stoudemire available.

Basically this criticism boils down to, "Marbury is short." Of course it is the responsibility of the coach to figure out ways to get the ball in the post.

-- Marbury is not a very good outside shooter, but he takes too many early three pointers when no one is in position to get offensive rebounds.

Marbury takes a meager 3.7 three-point attempts per game. Even if we concede that they are all "too early" by your standards, that's hardly a huge flaw.

By the way, Marbury is shooting .336 from three-point range this year, an almost identical percentage to Marion. And Marion shoots more of them. Marbury’s .463 overall shooting accuracy is seventh in the league among point guards.

-- On offense, Marbury plays like an SG, but he cannot defend opponent's SG's.

Even if this were true, it would be irrelevant, since teams switch on defensive matchups all the time. But in what way does Marbury “play like an SG” on offense? Because he scores? Marbury is eighth all-time in assists per game. There have been only seven players in this history of the league who have been more effective at setting up teammates. You will not find a shooting guard anywhere close on that list.

Who is the second best player on the Knicks right now? Kurt Thomas? No wonder they suck. I wonder how well Nash, Kidd, or any other “true” PG would fare if his best teammate was Kurt Thomas. It’s amazing that the Knicks are even marginally competitive.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Round 1 - Eric

 

[cardsunsfan]

Round 1 - Eric

-- Marbury dominates the ball and wastes too much time dribbling around.

"Wastes" is subjective. Kidd and Nash also handle the ball a lot and sometimes are stuck with it late in the shot clock.

I don't agree with that one. Marbury holds on to the ball alot more than Nash or Kidd. How often does Nash get stuck with the ball late in the shot clock

 

[elindholm]

How often does Nash get stuck with the ball late in the shot clock

Not much these days, true (although it still happens sometimes), but I don't think that you can attribute that to his PG style. The whole Suns team is trained to shoot first and ask questions later, so the shot clock isn't an issue.

The original criticism of Marbury makes it sound like he holds the ball for 20 seconds and then chucks a three. In truth, that might happen once or twice a month. If you watch some Knick games right now, he really doesn't hold the ball for very long, although his game is still based on penetrating to the basket and kicking to an open teammate.

The Knicks also attempt some more conventional pick-and-roll. But their only big man with a traditional inside game is Sweetney, who isn't exactly agile of foot, so the options there are limited. (It's possible it works better with Rose, but I haven't seen Marbury and Rose play much together yet.) They run pick-and-pop with the two Thomases, but neither of them is reliable from 18 feet, even when wide open.

 

[sunsfn]

It is a team game, so it is hard for one guy to win it but easy for any guy to lose it.

I agree that Marbury has not been a good fit on the teams he's played with. The Nets were overwhelmed by injuries when he was there. The Suns were in the midst of rebuilding when here. But the criticism he gets is not entirely unjustified. It boils down to this:

-- Marbury dominates the ball and wastes too much time dribbling around.

-- Marbury will continue to try to attack the basket even when it is clear the opponent is prepared to double team him.

-- Marbury only passes after he penitrates, so his teammates end up standing around hoping to get a pass.

-- Marbury is not effective in the open court which negates having athletes who can run.

-- Marbury is not effective at getting the ball inside, even when he has a stud like Stoudemire available.

-- Marbury is not a very good outside shooter, but he takes too many early three pointers when no one is in position to get offensive rebounds.

-- On offense, Marbury plays like an SG, but he cannot defend opponent's SG's.

I can imagine a team where Marbury might thrive, but it is obvious that Issah Thomas has no clue.

George, I agree with all of this and this point especially!

(Marbury dominates the ball and wastes too much time dribbling around.)

He always did that way too much when he was here.

It is interesting that some of the GM's in the league, are now comparing some of the point guards that are coming out for the draft to Marbury, and because of that they think they will go later in the draft.

I always liked Marbury and still follow him in New York, but he is not as much of a team player as Kidd or Nash, in fact not even close.
There was no doubt that he could not get the ball to Amare, and at times it looked like he did not want to give it to Amare.

 

[George O'Brien]

-- Marbury dominates the ball and wastes too much time dribbling around.

"Wastes" is subjective. Kidd and Nash also handle the ball a lot and sometimes are stuck with it late in the shot clock.

I haven't watched him much since he joined the Knicks, but with the Suns he hung onto the ball at more than Kidd and Nash.

-- Marbury will continue to try to attack the basket even when it is clear the opponent is prepared to double team him.

And he'll often get there anyway. Do you have any evidence that Marbury shoots a lower percentage, or gets to the free-throw line less often, late in games? Maybe we should compare him to Stoudemire, who almost single-handedly lost the Houston game by stubbornly going at Yao over and over.

Amare was irrational in one game and certainly needs to know when to pass out of the double teams, but no one accused him of being a point guard.

-- Marbury only passes after he penitrates, so his teammates end up standing around hoping to get a pass.

Teammates standing around is a problem for every point guard in the league, including Nash. When Marbury's teammates with the Suns moved without the ball, the whole offense ran more efficiently. It's not Marbury's fault that most NBA players stay rooted in one place on the floor, regardless of who their PG is.

I suppose it is a chicken/egg issue. Guys move around Nash because he passes to guys on the move, but he couldn't pass to them on the move if they don't move. I don't know why it seems like Marbury is always playing with statues, but after playing on several teams it starts looking like a pattern.

-- Marbury is not effective in the open court which negates having athletes who can run.

True, Marbury is not a very good open-court player.

-- Marbury is not effective at getting the ball inside, even when he has a stud like Stoudemire available.

Basically this criticism boils down to, "Marbury is short." Of course it is the responsibility of the coach to figure out ways to get the ball in the post.

Stephon is 6'2". He is taller than Mike Bibby who has little trouble getting the ball inside.

-- Marbury is not a very good outside shooter, but he takes too many early three pointers when no one is in position to get offensive rebounds.

Marbury takes a meager 3.7 three-point attempts per game. Even if we concede that they are all "too early" by your standards, that's hardly a huge flaw.

By the way, Marbury is shooting .336 from three-point range this year, an almost identical percentage to Marion. And Marion shoots more of them. Marbury’s .463 overall shooting accuracy is seventh in the league among point guards.

With the Suns Marbury's three point shooting was:

01-02 28.6%
02-03 30.1%
03-04 31.4%

BTW, I too wish Marion wouldn't shoot so many threes.

-- On offense, Marbury plays like an SG, but he cannot defend opponent's SG's.

Even if this were true, it would be irrelevant, since teams switch on defensive matchups all the time. But in what way does Marbury “play like an SG” on offense? Because he scores? Marbury is eighth all-time in assists per game. There have been only seven players in this history of the league who have been more effective at setting up teammates. You will not find a shooting guard anywhere close on that list.

Kobe gets 6 assists per game and Iverson gets 7.6 assists per game. Guys who dominate the ball are in a position to get assists, while a good passing offense like the Kings won't give the PG as many assists. In any case, my point relates to the fact that it is hard to play Marbury at SG because it creates a very small backcourt.

Who is the second best player on the Knicks right now? Kurt Thomas? No wonder they suck. I wonder how well Nash, Kidd, or any other “true” PG would fare if his best teammate was Kurt Thomas. It’s amazing that the Knicks are even marginally competitive.

I'm not blaming Marbury for the Knicks woes. I blame Issah Thomas. You would think that $100 could get you more than a shoot first point guard, a few OK guys and a huge collection of backup type players.

 

[cly2tw]

I don't know why people complain so much about Steph. Were he not injured in the series, we'd have won against the Spurs in the 1st round two years ago with a much lesser roster than we have now. As a rookie, Amare was tearing it up on off. rebounds, in which area he has regressed greatly since then. Since he and Amare can't be the franchise player on the same team, it's right decision to trade him away. He might have his flaws but he can win given the proper environment and supporting cast.

 

[George O'Brien]

I don't know why people complain so much about Steph. Were he not injured in the series, we'd have won against the Spurs in the 1st round two years ago with a much lesser roster than we have now. As a rookie, Amare was tearing it up on off. rebounds, in which area he has regressed greatly since then. Since he and Amare can't be the franchise player on the same team, it's right decision to trade him away. He might have his flaws but he can win given the proper environment and supporting cast.

When Spurs began double teaming Stephon during the playoffs, it totally shut down the Suns. The following season everyone began doing it and the Suns really struggled.

BTW, Amare has never been a "great" rebounder. He averaged 8.8 rpg his rookie year, 9.0 rpg last season, and 8.6 rpg this year. However, his scoring has certainly improved: 13.5, 20.6, and 26.0 (on 56.1% shooting).

 

[green machine]

For Marbury it's reall he never as a team built around him correctly. The reason the Nets worked for Kidd and the Suns didn't for Marbury after the trade is that both teams were built to run, and Marbury was not a running PG. Never was, never will be. This is not to say he is not a fantastic player, but for a PG it really depends on who you have around you.

Put Nash on San Antonio, and I don't think he's nearly as good. Same with Kidd. If Nash and Kidd are not running a good majority of the game, they are not as effective.

Now, Nash would be better because of his shooting stroke, but that's not really the point. Put Marbury on the Spurs instead of Parker and I think things work very well for that team.

 

[elindholm]

Put Nash on San Antonio, and I don't think he's nearly as good. Same with Kidd. If Nash and Kidd are not running a good majority of the game, they are not as effective.

I agree. That's one of the reasons that the idle Kidd-to-Minnesota speculation seems strange to me. Garnett seems to be a more potent weapon in the half-court game.

Put Marbury on the Spurs instead of Parker and I think things work very well for that team.

Probably, although to be fair, Parker is a more accurate spot-up shooter (if lacking Marbury's range). Marbury and Duncan were paired on the Olympic team, and the results weren't exactly spectacular.

 

[Joe Mama]

I've always liked marbs and his game so I think that some of the criticism is pretty harsh. I honestly don't think that he's been on a team that utilizes his skills appropriately with the exception of Minnesota (unfortenately for him, he screwed that up). He's always been on either really crappy teams (nets) or athletic teams that want to run, but dont have jump shooters (knicks, suns). He's NOT an open court point guard, that is for sure, but I hate to call the guy a plain looser. I don't think the loosing is all (or most) of his fault.

This is one of the reasons I think Isaiah Thomas is a horrible GM. It says if he had no idea why Marbury was traded from the Suns. I've watched the New York Knicks a bunch of times this year. We all saw what happened when he played here. Marbury ended up with a team that was built to run (would have been perfect for Jason Kidd) because that's the style the Suns wanted instead of what was really is suited for their point guard.

It's not so much that Marbury isn't good in the open court. Actually he's quite adept at running the fast break. He just doesn't like to do it. The crazy thing is that he seems to push the tempo more with his current team than He Did with The Suns. At least it sure seems that way.

My single biggest complaint with Marbury was his inability to pass the ball out of the double-team when he ran the pick and roll. If the defense did anything more than passively move towards him on the pick and roll he would travel around and reset. Oftentimes it would kill half the shot clock. He is much better playing pick and pop. I really have no problem with his shooting. What got under my skin was him dribbling away the majority of the shot clock without ever allowing another player to touch the ball.

I do think Marbury gets raw deal from the critics too often though. most of all the bothers me that people seem to confuse this label of a selfish point guard with him being a jerk or a bad person. That certainly is not fair. He did have his DUI, but otherwise he was a class act here in Phoenix and in his departure from the Suns.

Joe Mama

 

[SirStefan32]

I think Eric is right.

I became a hufe fan of Marbury when he was in Phoenix, and I've watched just about every game NY has played this year. Problem is not Marbury- he is passing the ball well, but his teammates are not hitting open shots (with the exception of Kurt Thomas.)

I also noticed that he is developing a really nice two man game with Mike Sweatney and Trevor Ariza.

Another problem is that his partner in the back court is a poor man's version of himself. Marbury and a poor man's Marbury do not fit well in the same lineup.

Give Marbury a healthy Alen Houston and give him Peja Stojakovic to go along with Kurt Thomas and let's see if the team keeps losing.

It is NOT Stephon's fault that his team mates in New York stand around and don't hit open jumpers. Same thing happened here.

 

[George O'Brien]

I think everyone on this board agrees that Marbury would be much better with a collection of three point specialists. Also, Marbury can win games almost on his own as was proven in the USA win over Spain. If there is a complaint, it is that Marbury has not been able or willing to expand his game to make use of the talents of his teammates.

 

[green machine]

I think everyone on this board agrees that Marbury would be much better with a collection of three point specialists. Also, Marbury can win games almost on his own as was proven in the USA win over Spain. If there is a complaint, it is that Marbury has not been able or willing to expand his game to make use of the talents of his teammates.

I wouldn't expect Marbury to change. He is what he is, and if he were to completely change what you would have is Marbury for the first part of his Suns tenure...trying to be Jason Kidd with his 10 point, 10 assist stat lines.