Marion at the 4, Zarko at the 2?

SirStefan32

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I understand that no team plays with a center, a PF, a SF, and a couple of guards all game. But most teams have a center in the game for more than 28 minutes.

I don't mind if the Suns go small for three minutes every game to confuse the opponent, change the tempo, etc.

They don't have to have a center in for 48 minutes, but play a center for 30 minutes, and play two power forwards if you want, just don't put an undersized small forward (Marion) or a flat out guard (Johnson, Hardaway) to play power forward.

Voskhul, Tsakalidis and Williams should combine for at least 40 minutes, and I think they could combine 15p, 10r, and 2 blocks.
That's all the Suns need.

Stefan
 

SirStefan32

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Originally posted by elindholm
So I should have said this: I don't think that a lineup of Stoudemire/Marion/SmallGuy/SmallGuy/SmallGuy can realistically compete for a title, no matter who the SmallGuys are. You can call the positions whatever you want. If Shawn Marion is the second-biggest player on the floor, you're not going deep in the playoffs.

Exactly!
 

Chaplin

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Originally posted by elindholm

So I should have said this: I don't think that a lineup of Stoudemire/Marion/SmallGuy/SmallGuy/SmallGuy can realistically compete for a title, no matter who the SmallGuys are. You can call the positions whatever you want. If Shawn Marion is the second-biggest player on the floor, you're not going deep in the playoffs.

Again, matchups. If the smallguys in your above lineup are Casey, Steph and Barbosa, then I agree, that's a bad lineup, but tehre there is a HUGE difference between that and Steph/JJ/Penny. JJ himself is almost as big if not bigger than Shawn Marion.


Do the Suns want Tsakalidis around for the long term? Can he hold down 20 or so minutes per game? How do they expect to find out, if they go to a small lineup every time they fall behind?

Come on. If we fall behind, do you really want Big Jake in there? If Shaq or another huge guy is in the game, then yes, it would be good for him to be there for defensive purposes, but his presence on the floor isn't going to make us score more points.

Here's a sports.ws analogy... :D

How many points per minute would come out of both the above lineups? :p
 
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JCSunsfan

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[QUOTE
So I should have said this: I don't think that a lineup of Stoudemire/Marion/SmallGuy/SmallGuy/SmallGuy can realistically compete for a title, no matter who the SmallGuys are. You can call the positions whatever you want. If Shawn Marion is the second-biggest player on the floor, you're not going deep in the playoffs. [/B][/QUOTE]

If we want to make Amare our center at some point, fine. I think he could probably hold his own against most of the centers in the league (especially as his body continues to mature).

But don't play him with 3 guards.

Actually a lineup of Steph, Penny, JJ, Shawn, and Amare is not THAT small. My big gripe is that Shawn is not big enough to play the pf for very long periods of time. It will wear him down, especially on defense.
 

elindholm

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Come on. If we fall behind, do you really want Big Jake in there?

Why not? Have the Suns established that he can't help the team come back?

If Shaq or another huge guy is in the game, then yes, it would be good for him to be there for defensive purposes, but his presence on the floor isn't going to make us score more points.

He should have value on the defensive end no matter who the other team's center is. Often a team can come from behind by making it harder for their opponents to score. It should not be too difficult for a lineup with Tsakalidis to be better defensively than one with Marion at PF.

How many times did we watch the Suns try a small-ball comeback last season, only to have it fail when they couldn't control the defensive boards? It happened over and over again. Sure, the Suns were more fluid offensively, and they could even force some bad shots, but they couldn't get the key rebounds.

How many points per minute would come out of both the above lineups?

Do you mean a lineup of

Tsakalidis (or Voskuhl)/Stoudemire/Marion/Hardaway/Marbury

vs.

Stoudemire/Marion/Johnson/Hardaway/Marbury ?

Not that it matters, but the first lineup would score more. Both Tsakalidis and Voskuhl score more fantasy points per minute than Johnson does.
 

slinslin

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No but the Suns have established that they can come back with their "small" lineup.

The Suns were the best team in the entire league in winning games after falling behind by double digits.
 

elindholm

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The Suns were the best team in the entire league in winning games after falling behind by double digits.

This is an extremely misleading statistic and I'm surprised that you even cite it, especially considering that you're pretty good with numbers.

First of all, the statistic refers to number of comebacks from double digit deficits, not the likelihood of a comeback. One reason the Suns had the largest number of comebacks is, almost certainly, because they were unusually likely to be behind. There were lots of times when the Suns fell behind by double digits and lost. A more solid team won't find itself down by double digits nearly as often.

Also, any small-ball team is going to have greater "hot" and "cold" swings during the course of a game. We all have seen how a team (any team) can be on fire from the perimeter for a while, then go through a stretch where they can't make anything. A team that is able to pound the ball inside will be more steady. A 10-point swing for the Suns, one way or the other, isn't that uncommon, especially compared to a team like San Antonio.

I'd bet that the Suns also had a large number of blown double-digit leads, at least among playoff teams. That isn't because they "choked" -- it's just normal for a smallball team to have wide swings.
 

Joe Mama

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I just don't think the Suns can afford to waste a bunch of wins trying to develop Big Jake at this point. Last season he played 17 minutes per game, and we all know those aren't trash time minutes at the end of the game. I figure if he can't show us that he is the answer at Center in that time he isn't the answer at Center. He is a nice situational starter and player off the bench. He's also had a hard time staying healthy. There's no sense counting on a player that just isn't going to be there. I guarantee if he shows improvement this season, and the team plays well with him in the lineup he'll get more minutes.

I still think it's a bit absurd to get upset about the possibility of Shawn Marion playing power forward. On average he might play power forward a few minutes per game. Not every minute of every game needs to be devoted to developing players. Let's not forget that winning games is also important for developing players. IMO a losing record this season because they spent too much time trying to develop players during games would cause enough damage to outweigh the benefits of the development. I'm not sure that made a whole lot of sense. :)

Finally, I do not think the Phoenix Suns lost the series against the Spurs because of small lineups or bad referees. Yes, in the first two games to referees were awful. The second one especially. I think the Phoenix Suns lost because they cannot absolutely zero scoring from their bench. Also, Marbury's injury was very significant in the last few games. I'm not sure what would have happened if he had been healthy.

IMO if the Phoenix Suns can get some bench scoring this season they will be a much, much improved team. I don't like counting on health, but injuries to Big Jake (who may not be a quality starter, but is a contributor) and Penny Hardaway cost the Suns 5-10 wins last season.

I'm rambling now.

Joe Mama
 

hcsilla

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Originally posted by Joe Mama
I I don't like counting on health, but injuries to Big Jake (who may not be a quality starter, but is a contributor) and Penny Hardaway cost the Suns 5-10 wins last season.

Joe Mama
I agree.
Suns were 34-24 with Penny and 10-14 without him.
 

elindholm

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Suns were 34-24 with Penny and 10-14 without him.

Let's be realistic for a moment.

34-24 is a .586 winning percentage. If you take the 24 games that the Suns were without Hardaway and assume that they would have won at the same rate, that's 14-10. And that's if you overlook that the Suns' schedule during the Hardaway injury was one of their toughest stretches during the season. His injury cost the Suns at most four games, and more likely two or three.

Regarding Tsakalidis, I think we'd agree that so far he has not made the Suns any more likely to win games, except under exceptional circumstances (e.g. against the Lakers).

So injuries, all told, cost the Suns maybe five games last season, but certainly no more than that.
 

F-Dog

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It seems obvious to me that these Suns aren't going to win a title without small ball.

They're not going to win playing like the Lakers, or Spurs, or Kings, because they'll wind up being a second-rate version of the Lakers, or Spurs, or Kings. If the Suns want to win a title, they have to play to win, and that means playing to their strengths and forcing other teams to adjust to them.

And, one of the Suns' greatest strengths is that their best players are athletic enough to guard a variety of opponents.

I agree that the team has to get both Jakes on the court to develop and evaluate them, but 28-32 min/game seems like enough time. The rest of the game, they can concentrate on developing their other players...
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I guess I must have watched a different Suns-Spurs playoff series from some of you.

The thing that amazed me was that the Suns were able to keep the games close despite a huge number of flaws in the team that seem to be correctable.

The Suns' lack of depth was a major problem, especially the lack of a backup PG--if there's one factor that cost the Suns the series, this is it. There was a lack of chemistry, complexity and discipline in the team's offensive sets; an overall lack of resourcefulness that meant the team was out of good ideas (especially on defense) by the last couple of games; unnecessary fouls and thoughtless turnovers, characteristic of a young team; and there is room for individual improvement for the young players--Amare especially has gaping holes in his game, but Scott Williams is the only Suns' post player who can hit a 12-foot jumper, and Joe J has a lot of improving to do, as well.

The impression I came away with was not that the Suns need to tear themselves down and build themselves up from scratch, but that the Suns were going to catch up with and surpass the Spurs in a year or two, as long as the two teams are relatively stable. Obviously, nothing has happened this offseason to change my mind.
_____________________

Now, if you mean that Cabarkapa might try to guard the other team's SG in a conventional lineup, that would mean something. And it would be wrong. That will never happen, except maybe in a very unusual situation where the other team's SG is someone immobile like Glen Rice.

I think the Suns are going to get Cabarkapa on the floor as much as possible, and to do that they'll move him to any position where the other team has a player who won't destroy his defense. There are role players (backups) all over the league who can be dared to try and create their own scoring chances, and I think that Cabarkapa will wind up guarding most of them, regardless of the positions they play.
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The Suns' "lineup technique" is fundamentally flawed. Right now, it's what they're best at. But it isn't good enough, and I think that they would be well served to invest the energy to correct that technique if they ever want to get really good. We all know that a gimmicky bull-dung lineup with Shawn Marion at power forward is never going to win a championship.

Not without some other gimmicks to change things up.

Seriously, it all depends on the team the Suns play. Against the Lakers, Marion won't be playing any PF, but against the Mavericks, why not?

Winning a title isn't about being without flaws; it's about beating the other good teams, however you get it done. 15 years ago, you could have argued that no team for which Bill Wennington played significant minutes would ever win a championship, and who would have disagreed with that?
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Which lineup, pound for pound, inspires more fear? Talent-wise, the 2nd lineup is what would work. But look at it realistically. If the Kings, for example, field a lineup of Divac, Webber, AND Miller, how much do you want to bet we'll see that 2nd lineup? Not even Frank is that dumb.

Why the hell not? None of those guys go inside anyway--the Suns could put Amare on Divac, and Joe J and Marion on the other two. Then, they could play Zarko at SG...

:D

Hey, Donnn Nelson could probably make it work, so why not FJ? ;)
 

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