Markieff & Marcus Morris: "Suns have worst fans in the NBA"

SirStefan32

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I think one of the problems is that none of the guys we've had, except for Ennis, have been true PGs. Its like Jeff has forgotten one minor detail about his playing days with the Jazz - his running mate was one of the best pure PGs in the history of the league. And there was never any question that Stockton was the man in charge.

I wouldn't say its impossible to have two combo guards working together on a contending team but, IMO, Eric and Goran never came up to that level and it seemed to be a rather fragile pairing - well, I suppose there's some hindsight in saying that, in light of the denouement. But I was uneasy and I thought it was mistake to break the bank retaining Bled. (In order to justify paying them 28 million they'd have be a lot better together than they were last year, and that seemed improbable to me.)

I didn't foresee the problems that would ensue from adding IT, but I it did something worthwhile to my way of thinking - IMO, Goran would not last long enough to be of much use by the time the team could contend and given Sarver's feeling about him, he'd have paid him at least as much as Bledsoe and for as many years. Goran wanting to leave was the only way out.

Unfortunately we seem to have leapt from the frying pan into the fire in acquiring Brandon Knight - and losing Ennis in the deal. Without Ennis how is Jeff ever going to see that a real PG is what the team is lacking? He may not have seen it with him but, at least, it was possible. We have a couple of months to see whether Bledsoe/Knight can surpass Bledsoe/Dragic and also reach harmony but I think its highly improbable - they're both young guns who want to be 'the' man.

What I fear is that McD will pay Knight next summer in spite of the results of the pairing.

IMO, Ennis was the best player - for the Suns, at least - involved in that deal but thats another, sad story.

With the exception of the last sentence, I completely agree with your post (I think it was Dragic, but I do see your point.)
When the Suns acquired Bledsoe, two people here pointed out it would not work for the very reasons you listed, and while I understand the fans on this board not seeing what those folks saw, I cannot understand how McD and Hornacek didn't see it. How anybody cannot see the difference between Stockton/ Hornacek or Johnson/ Hornacek pairing on one hand and Bledsoe/ Dragic or Bledsoe/ Knight pairing on the other is beyond me.
 

SirStefan32

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I don't know how much better Bledsoe and Dragic in 2013/14 could have played together. The Suns record with the pair was superb and the Suns on court rating with the two painted the picture of an elite pairing.

If Bledsoe didn't get hurt they make the playoffs easily. The failings of that team were up front.

It was a novelty, and it took teams by surprise. Teams adjusted, and that was the end.
 

AzStevenCal

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It was a novelty, and it took teams by surprise. Teams adjusted, and that was the end.

Or, as I see it, we adjusted, and that was the end. If you look around the league you'll see more and more teams doing just what we're doing - playing multiple point guards at the same time. You need to be able to space the court but it does work.

Steve
 

Phrazbit

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It was a novelty, and it took teams by surprise. Teams adjusted, and that was the end.

Hardly. We still were winning at nearly the same rate with the pairing for most of this year, despite Dragic's production falling dramatically. Which, IMO was a result of the loss of his PnR partner and Dragic becoming mopey and passive.
 

AzStevenCal

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What teams are playing the equivalent of Bledsoe/Dragic or Bledsoe/ Knight? Please do tell!

Dallas, Brooklyn, OKC, Boston, LAC, Utah, Denver, Rockets etc have all played multiple point guards (or combo guards) at the same time. That's nowhere near an exhaustive list either, it's happening throughout the league.

Steve
 

JCSunsfan

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SirStefan32

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Hardly. We still were winning at nearly the same rate with the pairing for most of this year, despite Dragic's production falling dramatically. Which, IMO was a result of the loss of his PnR partner and Dragic becoming mopey and passive.

Of course, it's Dragic' fault. I forgot.
 

Phrazbit

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Of course, it's Dragic' fault. I forgot.

What a jump to conclusions on my part, to think the guy who publicly whined about his role, lacked a much needed PnR partner, moped on the court and struggled statistically played a key role in the decline.

What am I thinking.

And as Steve and JC accurately pointed out. The league did not adjust, if anything more teams have adopted the style. The main adjustment was the Suns alteration of some of the personnel and Dragic's alteration of ego.
 

BC867

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... and struggled statistically played a key role in the decline.
As the 3rd Point Guard finishing games at Forward. While still the most talented Point Guard between Bledsoe, Thomas and himself.

Despite coming back to the Suns to be the starting Point Guard.

Decline is right. Decline in trust in the Front Office. Decline in logic and foresight by the Front Office. And decline in common sense by the Head Coach.

If they were going to use multi Point Guards, it should have been Dragic, with Bledsoe moving over from 2-Guard to back him up and Thomas as instant offense.

Which, of course, neither Bledsoe nor Thomas would have been happy with. (See "Decline in logic and foresight by the Front Office.")

Blaming that on Goran Dragic is not only erronious and unfair, but it gives no hope for the future.

It was reported that Hornacek said that Brandon Knight is our best Point Guard. Another week should tell if the Coach is going to give him the clear role as lead Point Guard or leave Bledsoe there and continue contradicting himself.

I really dislike and disrespect the persona that Jeff has been displaying to the Press and, through them, to the fans.

Acting as though all of this is happening to him, including losing control of the Morris twins, Tucker and Green to name a few.

Hey Jeff. You're the guy in charge! It is not happening to you. You are happening to it!
 

AzStevenCal

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As the 3rd Point Guard finishing games at Forward. While still the most talented Point Guard between Bledsoe, Thomas and himself.

Despite coming back to the Suns to be the starting Point Guard.

Decline is right. Decline in trust in the Front Office. Decline in logic and foresight by the Front Office. And decline in common sense by the Head Coach.

If they were going to use multi Point Guards, it should have been Dragic, with Bledsoe moving over from 2-Guard to back him up and Thomas as instant offense.

Which, of course, neither Bledsoe nor Thomas would have been happy with. (See "Decline in logic and foresight by the Front Office.")

Blaming that on Goran Dragic is not only erronious and unfair, but it gives no hope for the future.

It was reported that Hornacek said that Brandon Knight is our best Point Guard. Another week should tell if the Coach is going to give him the clear role as lead Point Guard or leave Bledsoe there and continue contradicting himself.

I really dislike and disrespect the persona that Jeff has been displaying to the Press and, through them, to the fans.

Acting as though all of this is happening to him, including losing control of the Morris twins, Tucker and Green to name a few.

Hey Jeff. You're the guy in charge! It is not happening to you. You are happening to it!

But it was Dragic. Jeff said over and again that he wanted each of these guys to run the offense. Goran chose to give up his job as a point guard because he couldn't consistently find a lane to drive. When they went to the 3 guard lineup it was a little different but when Dragic was out there with Eric it was Goran who determined his role not Eric and not Jeff.

Steve
 

SirStefan32

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Dallas, Brooklyn, OKC, Boston, LAC, Utah, Denver, Rockets etc have all played multiple point guards (or combo guards) at the same time. That's nowhere near an exhaustive list either, it's happening throughout the league.

Steve

OK, so let's talk about that, one by one.

Dallas- yes, they acquired Rhondo mid-season, so they do play two point guards. The difference is that nobody will mistake Rhondo for a shooting guard, nor Ellis for a point guard. If my memory serves me right, Ellis played behind Davis and then Curry in Golden State, though there was one season when they played without a point guard, and if my memory is not failing me, played Stephen Jackson as a point-forward to run the offense.

I suppose you could bring up the Championship year, but they had the last pure point guard on that roster, a guy who has played PG and SG for a very long time, along with Stevenson (who started most games, if I remember correctly) so that's not a Bledsoe/Dragic or Bledsoe/ Knight combo.

Brooklyn is also a bad example because I don't see who these two PGs are. Sure, they played Jack along with Williams some because of injuries and losing some players. Besides, Williams is an actual point guard.

OKC has the best point guard in the league (probably the league MVP this year) and they traded Jackson, thus ending the two PG experiment. They traditionally played a "D and 3" SG alongside Westbrook, and in their case, due to Durant being a point-forward, the guy playing the SG doesn't handle the ball much. Also, this season is very weird for OKC due to injuries.

I'll give you Boston, but Boston is barely a real NBA team. They tried Rhondo/ Bradley, and then Smart/ Bradley combo, and are now adding IT to those combinations. One glance at the standings will tell you how well it's worked out for them. They are rebuilding, so they are just putting five players on the floor trying to get through the season. But, OK- I'll give you Boston as it is similar enough- none of them (since Rhondo was traded) are real point guards or real shooting guards.

Clippers play a textbook point guard and a shooting guard, so I have no idea why they are on your list. I'll admit I don't watch them much, but Paul and Redick are about as far from "two combo guards" or two "point guards" as you can get. Paul is a true PG, and Redick is a textbook SG. Crawford is a combo guard, but able to play both positions. He scares me more at 2 than he does at 1.

Rockets play a point guard and a shooting guard. Their shooting guard happens to be one of the best players in the league and can, indeed, run an offense. They also have the (arguably) best combo guard in recent history backing both of them up- no big deal because all three of them can shoot and facilitate. Yes, their combo is not "traditional" but it is VERY different from the crap the Suns are trying.

Utah and Denver are a mess. I don't watch either team much, so I may be wrong, but none of the Utah guys are "combo" guards. Burke is a PG and Burks is a SG, while Exum is an enigma that they are trying to figure out- 6'6 PG. Denver- I can't recall the second point guard playing next to Lawson. Affalo is a combo swingman- a 2 that's more a 3 than a 1. Chandler is a SF that can play 2. I don't know if Nate is still on their roster, but he plays spot minutes and is not a major player.

None of these teams play two combo guards who are neither PGs nor SGs, which is what the Suns are obsessed with. Sure, they may have a combo guard play some minutes with a real PG or a real SG, but not one of them plays two combo guards without "real" PG or SG at the other position, with the possible exception of Boston (Apple doesn;t fall far from the tree- McD/Ainge?)

You Bledsoe/ McD supporters constantly try to redefine the argument. There is a BIG difference between combo guards who are neither one nor two (Bledsoe, Knight, and to a lesser degree, Dragic) and players who belong at one position but can play the other for a while. The problem is not two point guards, but rather, NO point guards and NO shooting guards. Neither Bledsoe nor Knight is a PG or a SG- they are stuck between the two positions and they can't really play either very well.
 

SirStefan32

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But it was Dragic. Jeff said over and again that he wanted each of these guys to run the offense. Goran chose to give up his job as a point guard because he couldn't consistently find a lane to drive. When they went to the 3 guard lineup it was a little different but when Dragic was out there with Eric it was Goran who determined his role not Eric and not Jeff.

Steve

No. I've counted as many as eight consecutive possessions where Dragic would not touch the ball. Regardless of what Hornacek may have said (side note- saying "I want them all to run the offense" is just an epic failure and a load of crap), he clearly made Bledsoe the man with the ball.

Some of the most valuable lessons I've learned from managing people is that every person has to have defined responsibilities and position, and that it's my job to put each person in the best position for them to be successful, and thus make my entire organization successful.
 

Cheesebeef

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OK, so let's talk about that, one by one.

Dallas- yes, they acquired Rhondo mid-season, so they do play two point guards. The difference is that nobody will mistake Rhondo for a shooting guard, nor Ellis for a point guard. If my memory serves me right, Ellis played behind Davis and then Curry in Golden State, though there was one season when they played without a point guard, and if my memory is not failing me, played Stephen Jackson as a point-forward to run the offense.

I suppose you could bring up the Championship year, but they had the last pure point guard on that roster, a guy who has played PG and SG for a very long time, along with Stevenson (who started most games, if I remember correctly) so that's not a Bledsoe/Dragic or Bledsoe/ Knight combo.

Brooklyn is also a bad example because I don't see who these two PGs are. Sure, they played Jack along with Williams some because of injuries and losing some players. Besides, Williams is an actual point guard.

OKC has the best point guard in the league (probably the league MVP this year) and they traded Jackson, thus ending the two PG experiment. They traditionally played a "D and 3" SG alongside Westbrook, and in their case, due to Durant being a point-forward, the guy playing the SG doesn't handle the ball much. Also, this season is very weird for OKC due to injuries.

I'll give you Boston, but Boston is barely a real NBA team. They tried Rhondo/ Bradley, and then Smart/ Bradley combo, and are now adding IT to those combinations. One glance at the standings will tell you how well it's worked out for them. They are rebuilding, so they are just putting five players on the floor trying to get through the season. But, OK- I'll give you Boston as it is similar enough- none of them (since Rhondo was traded) are real point guards or real shooting guards.

Clippers play a textbook point guard and a shooting guard, so I have no idea why they are on your list. I'll admit I don't watch them much, but Paul and Redick are about as far from "two combo guards" or two "point guards" as you can get. Paul is a true PG, and Redick is a textbook SG. Crawford is a combo guard, but able to play both positions. He scares me more at 2 than he does at 1.

Rockets play a point guard and a shooting guard. Their shooting guard happens to be one of the best players in the league and can, indeed, run an offense. They also have the (arguably) best combo guard in recent history backing both of them up- no big deal because all three of them can shoot and facilitate. Yes, their combo is not "traditional" but it is VERY different from the crap the Suns are trying.

Utah and Denver are a mess. I don't watch either team much, so I may be wrong, but none of the Utah guys are "combo" guards. Burke is a PG and Burks is a SG, while Exum is an enigma that they are trying to figure out- 6'6 PG. Denver- I can't recall the second point guard playing next to Lawson. Affalo is a combo swingman- a 2 that's more a 3 than a 1. Chandler is a SF that can play 2. I don't know if Nate is still on their roster, but he plays spot minutes and is not a major player.

None of these teams play two combo guards who are neither PGs nor SGs, which is what the Suns are obsessed with. Sure, they may have a combo guard play some minutes with a real PG or a real SG, but not one of them plays two combo guards without "real" PG or SG at the other position, with the possible exception of Boston (Apple doesn;t fall far from the tree- McD/Ainge?)

You Bledsoe/ McD supporters constantly try to redefine the argument. There is a BIG difference between combo guards who are neither one nor two (Bledsoe, Knight, and to a lesser degree, Dragic) and players who belong at one position but can play the other for a while. The problem is not two point guards, but rather, NO point guards and NO shooting guards. Neither Bledsoe nor Knight is a PG or a SG- they are stuck between the two positions and they can't really play either very well.

Thank you for taking the time to write this. I thought Steve's examples were pretty bad, but didn't want to bother pointing out all of the above.
 

Absolute Zero

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So if one or both of the Morri actually never said the Suns have the worst fans in the NBA, isn't ASFN potentially liable for a defamation claim for allowing this thread title to remain without changing it?

:shrug:

Just sayin'
 

82CardsGrad

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OK, so let's talk about that, one by one.



Dallas- yes, they acquired Rhondo mid-season, so they do play two point guards. The difference is that nobody will mistake Rhondo for a shooting guard, nor Ellis for a point guard. If my memory serves me right, Ellis played behind Davis and then Curry in Golden State, though there was one season when they played without a point guard, and if my memory is not failing me, played Stephen Jackson as a point-forward to run the offense.



I suppose you could bring up the Championship year, but they had the last pure point guard on that roster, a guy who has played PG and SG for a very long time, along with Stevenson (who started most games, if I remember correctly) so that's not a Bledsoe/Dragic or Bledsoe/ Knight combo.



Brooklyn is also a bad example because I don't see who these two PGs are. Sure, they played Jack along with Williams some because of injuries and losing some players. Besides, Williams is an actual point guard.



OKC has the best point guard in the league (probably the league MVP this year) and they traded Jackson, thus ending the two PG experiment. They traditionally played a "D and 3" SG alongside Westbrook, and in their case, due to Durant being a point-forward, the guy playing the SG doesn't handle the ball much. Also, this season is very weird for OKC due to injuries.



I'll give you Boston, but Boston is barely a real NBA team. They tried Rhondo/ Bradley, and then Smart/ Bradley combo, and are now adding IT to those combinations. One glance at the standings will tell you how well it's worked out for them. They are rebuilding, so they are just putting five players on the floor trying to get through the season. But, OK- I'll give you Boston as it is similar enough- none of them (since Rhondo was traded) are real point guards or real shooting guards.



Clippers play a textbook point guard and a shooting guard, so I have no idea why they are on your list. I'll admit I don't watch them much, but Paul and Redick are about as far from "two combo guards" or two "point guards" as you can get. Paul is a true PG, and Redick is a textbook SG. Crawford is a combo guard, but able to play both positions. He scares me more at 2 than he does at 1.



Rockets play a point guard and a shooting guard. Their shooting guard happens to be one of the best players in the league and can, indeed, run an offense. They also have the (arguably) best combo guard in recent history backing both of them up- no big deal because all three of them can shoot and facilitate. Yes, their combo is not "traditional" but it is VERY different from the crap the Suns are trying.



Utah and Denver are a mess. I don't watch either team much, so I may be wrong, but none of the Utah guys are "combo" guards. Burke is a PG and Burks is a SG, while Exum is an enigma that they are trying to figure out- 6'6 PG. Denver- I can't recall the second point guard playing next to Lawson. Affalo is a combo swingman- a 2 that's more a 3 than a 1. Chandler is a SF that can play 2. I don't know if Nate is still on their roster, but he plays spot minutes and is not a major player.



None of these teams play two combo guards who are neither PGs nor SGs, which is what the Suns are obsessed with. Sure, they may have a combo guard play some minutes with a real PG or a real SG, but not one of them plays two combo guards without "real" PG or SG at the other position, with the possible exception of Boston (Apple doesn;t fall far from the tree- McD/Ainge?)



You Bledsoe/ McD supporters constantly try to redefine the argument. There is a BIG difference between combo guards who are neither one nor two (Bledsoe, Knight, and to a lesser degree, Dragic) and players who belong at one position but can play the other for a while. The problem is not two point guards, but rather, NO point guards and NO shooting guards. Neither Bledsoe nor Knight is a PG or a SG- they are stuck between the two positions and they can't really play either very well.


Great post... And it all boils down to your final remarks. The Suns don't have a true PG or SG... I'd be ok with the combo idea of we actually had just one who could be a legit PG or SG. But at this moment, Bledsoe and Knight do seem incapable at being one or the other...
 

82CardsGrad

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So if one or both of the Morri actually never said the Suns have the worst fans in the NBA, isn't ASFN potentially liable for a defamation claim for allowing this thread title to remain without changing it?

:shrug:

Just sayin'


Huh? The Morii may not have uttered those exact words, but... They did say:

- they only respect the fans in the first two to three rows at US Airways Center

- they expect Suns fans to "heckle" players from the opposing team

What's the point of your comment?
 

AzStevenCal

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Thank you for taking the time to write this. I thought Steve's examples were pretty bad, but didn't want to bother pointing out all of the above.

So you don't think that Rondo and Ellie should count either? And you're not going to buy into Brooklyn playing Williams and Jack together or last year when they regularly played Jack and Livingston together. How about CP3 and Austin Rivers, a combo that has reportedly helped LAC make up for the loss of Blake? And you agree that OKC traded Jackson because the occasional pairing of him and Westbrook wasn't working and not because his agent requested it? Ty Lawson, Jameer Nelson and Randy Foye are worlds different than what we're doing? Every example I gave was valid although I anticipated the Rockets argument. But I was hoping that someone would realize that starting Beverly, Ariza and Harden isn't a whole lot different than what we do and that's without even considering when they sub in Terry and Prigioni.

I really wasn't going to respond to Stefan but I'm surprised you're lining up with him. Try this. Pick a couple of teams and watch each of them play two games in a row. Odds are you'll see just what I'm talking about and you'll also hear just what I'm talking about. The announcers bring it up repeatedly, just like Dave Pasch did last night in our game. And he wasn't talking about the Suns either.

Steve
 

SirStefan32

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So you don't think that Rondo and Ellie should count either? And you're not going to buy into Brooklyn playing Williams and Jack together or last year when they regularly played Jack and Livingston together. How about CP3 and Austin Rivers, a combo that has reportedly helped LAC make up for the loss of Blake? And you agree that OKC traded Jackson because the occasional pairing of him and Westbrook wasn't working and not because his agent requested it? Ty Lawson, Jameer Nelson and Randy Foye are worlds different than what we're doing? Every example I gave was valid although I anticipated the Rockets argument. But I was hoping that someone would realize that starting Beverly, Ariza and Harden isn't a whole lot different than what we do and that's without even considering when they sub in Terry and Prigioni.

I really wasn't going to respond to Stefan but I'm surprised you're lining up with him. Try this. Pick a couple of teams and watch each of them play two games in a row. Odds are you'll see just what I'm talking about and you'll also hear just what I'm talking about. The announcers bring it up repeatedly, just like Dave Pasch did last night in our game. And he wasn't talking about the Suns either.

Steve

Not sure who Ellie is, but I assume we are talking about Ellis. If that's correct, Ellis has NEVER even pretended to be a point guard, short of that bizzare season with the Warriors with no point guard.
Paul is one of the best point guards in the league. Lawson, Nelson, and Foye don't play 30 minutes per game together, and neither do Priglioni and Terry. Those are ALL completely different scenarios.

Scenario A: One guard is a real PG or a SG, the other guard is a combo guard.

Scenario B: Two point guards or two combo guards spend some time on the floor together.

Scenario C: Two starting guards spend a lot of time on the floor together, and neither one of them can run a team or shoot very well- neither one is an adequate PG or a SG.

You keep bringing up scenarios A and B to argue for C. They are different scenarios.
 

Phrazbit

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The entire purpose of these complaints is a false narrative to begin with. We supposedly have no one who can run the offense... yet the Suns have one of the top 10 offenses in the NBA. People might not like the aesthetics of the offense, but it has not been the undoing of this team.

The team's majority failings have come of defense and on the glass.
 

AzStevenCal

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Not sure who Ellie is, but I assume we are talking about Ellis. If that's correct, Ellis has NEVER even pretended to be a point guard, short of that bizzare season with the Warriors with no point guard.
Paul is one of the best point guards in the league. Lawson, Nelson, and Foye don't play 30 minutes per game together, and neither do Priglioni and Terry. Those are ALL completely different scenarios.

Scenario A: One guard is a real PG or a SG, the other guard is a combo guard.

Scenario B: Two point guards or two combo guards spend some time on the floor together.

Scenario C: Two starting guards spend a lot of time on the floor together, and neither one of them can run a team or shoot very well- neither one is an adequate PG or a SG.

You keep bringing up scenarios A and B to argue for C. They are different scenarios.

Yeah, it was a typo, I was talking about Monta Ellis. You can call him whatever you like but he plays the game a lot like Brandon Knight does.

Steve
 

SirStefan32

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Yeah, it was a typo, I was talking about Monta Ellis. You can call him whatever you like but he plays the game a lot like Brandon Knight does.

Steve

OK, so let's forget the facts and call him a PG or a combo guard. That team has ONE combo guard or two point guards. One of the two is an ACTUAL point guard. Still not the same scenario.

NEITHER Bledsoe, Knight, or even Dragic is a real point guard, though Dragic (if he is allowed to have the ball in his hands) can kind of, sort, of pass for one, especially if he has a secondary ball-handler on the team (D-Wade, Grant Hill types). Nobody is arguing that your point guard has to be a Steve Nash or John Stockton type, and that your shooting guard has to be a Reggie Miller type, but you have to have players who can actually play either position well. Bledsoe can't run offense and he is not a three-point threat. Knight has a nicer-looking shot and seems to handle the ball better (I think he is also less reckless than Bledsoe), but even he is not really great at either position.

Edit:
As an example, Dragic/ Wade back court has a chance, once they gel and figure each other out) because Dragic can play the point, and has some shooting skills while Wade is a good shooting guard who can handle the ball as the secondary ball-handler. Not a perfect setup, but as far as "two combo guards" setups go, it's one that may work because while neither one of them is a "pure" anything, both of them are adequate on either spot and have some complementary skills. Bledsoe/ Dragic back court did not. Bledsoe/ Knight duo is no different. You can't have two people in two positions when neither one of them is competent at either.
 
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BC867

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The team's majority failings have come of defense and on the glass.
I attribute the team's major failing to their inconsistency and constantly having to come from behind. Game after game, that takes a huge toll on a team.

On a broader scale, the Suns approach can get by during the 1st half of seasons, but not down the stretch and especially in the post-season when the refs favor power players and instigators rather than weaklings who try to retaliate or, worse, can't even do that.
 

Absolute Zero

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Huh? The Morii may not have uttered those exact words, but... They did say:

- they only respect the fans in the first two to three rows at US Airways Center

- they expect Suns fans to "heckle" players from the opposing team

What's the point of your comment?


Just giving the owners a bit of free legal advice i guess. Kinda reckless to knowingly leave a false statement like that prominently displayed on the board.
 

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