Matt Leinart hypothetical

[moklerman]

This isn't about trading Leinart now or in the future but a "what if" scenario that I've been arguing with someone on another board about.

They are claiming that Vince Young has sparked the Titans' recent mini-win streak. That conversation led to me suggesting that the Titans would have been much better off in the short term and long term if they had drafted Leinart instead of Young.

Young and Leinart have both had their respective troubles with playbooks and work habits but had Leinart gone to Tennessee I really think he'd have experienced quite a bit of success by now.

Norm Chow and Jeff Fisher(I think) both wanted Leinart. They are both connected to USC and Leinart played under Chow at USC. When you look at the way the Titans approach the NFL game it's much like USC. Heck, Leinart's old backfield mate LenDale White was even there.

The Titans have Chris Johnson to fill the Reggie Bush role from USC and a consistently good defense. I mean, how could it have been any more of a seamless transition for Leinart to go into that situation?

Compared to the turmoil that was Dennis Green's last year as coach and Whis and Haley's total deconstruction of Leinart I think he would be far better off in his career if he had not been c-blocked by Bud Adams' love for Young.

Also, who would the Cardinals have drafted if Leinart hadn't fallen so far? Would Warner have adopted the gloves if he hadn't been benched in favor of Leinart?

 

[Unsterblich856]

If we didn't draft Leinart it would've been either Vince Young or Jay Cutler.

 

[Duckjake]

If we didn't draft Leinart it would've been either Vince Young or Jay Cutler.

If it had been Cutler,which it probably would, Warner would likely be either retired or playing someplace like Detroit or SF the last couple of years and instead of playing in the SuperBowl we'd be watching games like the Bears fans did Sunday. That makes Leinart one of the best draft picks ever for the Cards.

 

[moklerman]

I have no idea about Young but I know Denver really wanted Cutler and traded up to get him. Maybe they make a trade with Arizona instead of St. Louis if Leinart's off the board. I thought that Arizona wasn't really anticipating a QB in that draft and only took Leinart because he was such a perceived value?

 

[moklerman]

Man, it's always painful to look at all the guys that could have been drafted. Some of the names that went after the top 10: Haloti Ngata, Antonio Cromartie, DeAngelo Williams, Nick Mangold, Joseph Addai, Mathias Kiwanuka, Maurice Jones-Drew...

Of course, Dennis Green could have taken Frank Gore in round 2 of the 2005 draft rather than J.J. Arrington. Or Marion Barber or Brandon Jacobs.

 

[az1965]

If we didn't draft Leinart it would've been either Vince Young or Jay Cutler.

:shudders:

 

[green machine]

I believe at some point Rod Graves said (before the draft) that if Vince Young fell to 10 he'd personally drive to the airport to pick him up. Young would have been their choice.

As for Leinart's career, I think he would have experienced some success in Tennessee just as I think he would experience success here. But, like you said, Whiz/Haley deconstructed Leinart's mechanics and, in theory, have made him a much better QB than he'd be without it.

 

[jaguarpaw81]

I still believe 100% that we took the best QB out of that group. Cutler would have been ridiculous with our receivers though.

 

[Early]

If it had been Cutler,which it probably would, Warner would likely be either retired or playing someplace like Detroit or SF the last couple of years and instead of playing in the SuperBowl we'd be watching games like the Bears fans did Sunday. That makes Leinart one of the best draft picks ever for the Cards.

I like the way you think. You are so true about this ...

The worst busts in NFL history for me are not the ones that are obvious from day one, never produce anything, but instead those that take years and years to realize that this player is never going to be a winner and a team player.

Those players hold the franchise down sometimes even for a decade. On other hand guys like Jamarcus Russel are so easy to recognize as busts that you relatively quickly can move on and save couple of years of your franchise

I absolutely agree. I never liked Leinart but the good thing about him is that his poor play made us see relatively fast how great Warner still is and what he was capable of accomplishing within our offense

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Man, it's always painful to look at all the guys that could have been drafted. Some of the names that went after the top 10: Haloti Ngata, Antonio Cromartie, DeAngelo Williams, Nick Mangold, Joseph Addai, Mathias Kiwanuka, Maurice Jones-Drew...

Of course, Dennis Green could have taken Frank Gore in round 2 of the 2005 draft rather than J.J. Arrington. Or Marion Barber or Brandon Jacobs.

Drafts are always painful when you look back at them. Think about the teams that past on Fitzgerald, or worse Boldin.

 

[jaguarpaw81]

If it had been Cutler,which it probably would, Warner would likely be either retired or playing someplace like Detroit or SF the last couple of years and instead of playing in the SuperBowl we'd be watching games like the Bears fans did Sunday. That makes Leinart one of the best draft picks ever for the Cards.

I guess Kurt can thank Leinart for sealing his HOF status too.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Good question.

Moklerman, may I say that I have very much been enjoying your posts as of late.

Playing what if with Matt Leinart ?

People seem to forget that while Leinart didn't exactly blow up the league his rookie, he played well. We are talking about a Denny Green squad with huge problems, and a horrible mentally when it comes to playing football.

You look back a Leinart's plays his rookie year, and many forget this guy can play. His arm is not a rocket, but man does he throw a pretty ball, that was accurate back when he is a rookie, and if you have not notice he accuracy has increased because of better footwork.

So, if Leinart goes to the Titans, or even more so, the Jets does he succeed ? I think Leinart would be a very solid QB for the Titans if they draft him. I think at some point his immaturity from college would come back to haunt him. When Norm Chow was still there, I would imagine Leinart would pick up the system, and they had a decent team so some success would follow. But the real unknown would be how long Leinart could last while still playing with lousy footwork, and average worth ethic. With the success I would also imagine that Leinart would have gotten hurt, and more often, also I would say that he would have his game trimmed back and he would become a "game-managing" QB.

If Leinart goes to the Jets, I think he fails. Being in NYC with bad work habits, and a load of pressure. He would have been the next Jessie Palmer in NYC.

Matt Leinart has lucked his arse off. I think this is the best place for him to be. The best trait about Leinart is his swagger, his will to win so to speak. I think Whiz did the right thing by breaking him down and building him back up. I think the footwork issue, while still being worked on (Warner still work on this too), has been huge for Matt. He throws a little hard (hey, anything we can get), and much more accurate. He knows his offense better, and finally he has toughen'd up a little more.

I still think Leinart is the AZ QOF. I think by the time he gets his chance, that there will be a running game and defense waiting for him. When Leinart is ready he will have a balance team to lead, and I think he will lead them to a lot of sucess.

As for AZ getting Young or Cutler........BLEH. Cutler = Plummer. Young = Bust.

 

[TJ]

Drafts are always painful when you look back at them. Think about the teams that past on Fitzgerald, or worse Boldin.

Or Tom Brady

 

[Duckjake]

As for AZ getting Young or Cutler........BLEH. Cutler = Plummer. Young = Bust.

Young is hard to figure. Not at all a pro style QB but his teams just keep winning. The Titans had lost 8 straight games with Collins at QB. (2 last year 6 this year) and Young comes in and they win two in a row. If I were the OC I'd let him run all he wants. So what if he gets hurt? If he doesn't pass well or gets hurt either way he's on the bench.

 

[Early]

I still think Leinart is the AZ QOF. I think by the time he gets his chance, that there will be a running game and defense waiting for him. When Leinart is ready he will have a balance team to lead, and I think he will lead them to a lot of sucess.

So everyone else needs to help him out so that he can look good? That still doesn't justify a round 1 pick. You can take late rounders for that job. Look at Baltimore and how they won superbowl, with a QB they actually cut the next offseason because all he did was lead a great defense and rungame to the superbowl win...

Leinart needs to show he can command the passinggame and be a threath in his own. He hasn't done that yet. So that the defense and everyone can say, hey, we have a great QB that is a treath in his own. That helps everyone else.

Right now Kurt Warner is all that without any rungame and many times with just an below average defense. I don't think Leinart will ever be that kind of a master and commander. I just don't see that from all the opportunities he has gotten so far and there has been enough of those

He will be making good handoffs maybe and taking some good calls from the sideline at times and will be in good field position due to (maybe) and improved defense and special teams. But i unfortunately don't see him ever grasping that complicated offense not even close the way a high pick as that should by this point now with a HOF QB in front of him that he could learn from years and years in an offense that has historical numbers in passinggame. A top pick like him with these circumstances mentioned should look like Rodgers when given the opportunity, not collapsing half the time.

 

[Duckjake]

I guess Kurt can thank Leinart for sealing his HOF status too.

You could say that because without that SuperBowl run there is no HOF status imo. 9-7 and out in the first round with those horrible losses to Philly,NE,and Minnesota wouldn't generate any HOF talk even with the big passing numbers as people would say its only because that's all Arizona does.

He'd just be another good player forgotten by the media because he was playing in Arizona and all the writers would remember was his time in NY.

I have no idea about Young but I know Denver really wanted Cutler and traded up to get him. Maybe they make a trade with Arizona instead of St. Louis if Leinart's off the board. I thought that Arizona wasn't really anticipating a QB in that draft and only took Leinart because he was such a perceived value?

Had to be Leinart at that spot because in 2006 Warner hadn't done anything special and Josh wasn't anything special so any coach would say we needed a QB.

But you are right. Everyone expected Oakland to take Leinart.

Knowing the Cards, if they hadn't taken Leinart, they'd have drafted Brady Quinn the next year.

 

[green machine]

Right now Kurt Warner is all that without any rungame and many times with just an below average defense. I don't think Leinart will ever be that kind of a master and commander. I just don't see that from all the opportunities he has gotten so far and there has been enough of those

He will be making good handoffs maybe and taking some good calls from the sideline at times and will be in good field position due to (maybe) and improved defense and special teams. But i unfortunately don't see him ever grasping that complicated offense not even close the way a high pick as that should by this point now with a HOF QB in front of him that he could learn from years and years in an offense that has historical numbers in passinggame. A top pick like him with these circumstances mentioned should look like Rodgers when given the opportunity, not collapsing half the time.

What opportunities are you talking about? Garbage time minutes after not having played with the starters? I know it was preseason, but when Leinart got significant time (entire quarters, halves) he looked pretty damn good out there.

The Rodgers comparison is off because he was never the starter, benched, starter, benched, and by the time he was named the starter it was his show to run and that was it. A lot easier for a QB to play comfortable when they don't have a hall of famer breathing down their neck wanting to play.

 

[D-Dogg]

Early...ha. Yes, you are very early on your Leinart prognosis.

That's ok, I'm sure you'll happily lap up some crow in a couple of years.

 

[TJ]

I will summarize what I said in another thread.

Leinart has been in two offenses, one with a lame duck coach who surrounded him with a crummy o-line. Then his 2nd season, the entire offense changed around him and he ended up injured. Kurt Warner found the fountain of youth and his resume won him the full time job the following season.

Let's table all conclusions on Matty until he takes the reigns in a now stable system. He has matured tremendously since the beer bong pictures and has fixed his most glaring weakness: his footwork and throwing off his back foot. IMO, he will be a successful QB, whether its with the Cards or another franchise.

With VY getting a second chance and embracing it, why can't Leinart do it with better weapons around him?

 

[Early]

Early...ha. Yes, you are very early on your Leinart prognosis.

That's ok, I'm sure you'll happily lap up some crow in a couple of years.

I am early i know. I just say how i feel about it from all what i have seen from him.

However i have been wrong before lol, so i hope i am now as well. QB's have turned it arround earlier, he might do it as well. There is just not much so far that shows that will happen, that's what im saying

It's early for many other QB's, BSP included, everyone that is a depth player... There is nothing about Leinarts draftstatus now that will help him or make me go with him over some others-..He will need to improve and show it in practice and garbagetime he gets

Besides the last game wasnt garbagetime... Bears could easely come back...Something ML knows with experience from earlier ..That game wast on the line sure, but Leinarts pick made it a game..Thats why he was pulled out and KW put back in

 

[moklerman]

Isn't it funny how things have worked out. Leinart getting hurt twice ultimately led the Cardinals to the Super Bowl. The first time he got hurt, Warner got another chance to play and with the gloves for the first time. The second time he got hurt, Warner got to play again but more importantly, he got hurt.

If all of that didn't happen, not to mention there not being a quality QB floating around, the Cardinals wouldn't be where they are right now. They had to cave into Warner's preferences to some degree when he was playing with the elbow brace and that, I think, made Whis realize how valuable the passing game could be with the WR's here.

That's something else that many overlook is that Whis wasn't or isn't a finished product. He's a first time head coach learning on the job. He has shown that he is masterful at motivating his players, very good at delegating, willing to modify his approach if necessary, patient as hell and his word is actually good. The best players really do play.

Which takes us back to Leinart. My Tennessee scenario certainly makes me wonder about the "what if's". Under Chow and with the talent he would have had around him I think he would have experienced a lot of early success much like Big Ben. He would have been insulated by a lot of running plays and good defense which would have led to many wins.

Of course, his work ethic has been his weak point so far with Arizona but in Tennessee it wouldn't have been an issue. No way does he struggle to learn Chow's offense. But would that have led to laziness/complacency/unpreparedness? It's possible but I think it could have just as easily led to confidence. Which he has absolutely none of at this point whether he says so or not.

The Titans have a lightning and thunder backfield, good enough TE's, serviceable WR's...it's exactly the same environment Leinart was in at USC. I'm certain that it would have been the best place for him to be drafted. I don't think his situation is bad here at all but I also don't know about the necessity to break him all the way down and start from scratch. It's hard to argue with Whis' success with other players so I have to assume it will produce an even better Leinart when all is said and done.

Leinart is having his struggles to be sure but I think Whis is doing that by design. I think he tests him with real tests every time he gets the chance and that leads to less than inspiring brief appearances. Rather than just putting Leinart on the field and handing it off 3 times or calling short passes and essentially just letting him get his feet wet and feeling good about himself, Whis is challenging him. Holding him to a higher...no, to THE standard of Cardinals football.

Leinart seems determined so maybe it will work out. If he keeps fighting and it all pays off down the road, Whis and Leinart will be a strong HC/QB combo for quite a few years. Let's also not forget that Leinart's only had 3 full starts since Whis became the coach and the rest of the team was on a learning curve when he got here. Not the best time for a 2nd year QB coming off of injury to excel. The "new" Leinart is a virtual unknown commodity at this point. Let him practice with the first team and give him a season's worth of games as "the guy"--he still only has 16 career starts under his belt, and then let's evaluate what the Cardinals have in him.