Mcgrady names 4 teams he'll be demanding a trade to...

[se7en]

I was originally going to post a report I heard on the radio today regarding a rumored McGrady for Francis and Cato trade. Then I found this link to a Spurs site on Hoopshype. They have quotes from respected insider expert Vescey.

Claims Mcgrady is demanding a trade to:

Suns
Spurs
Lakers
Rockets

So far I/WE have heard:

Marion + 1st + maybe JJ
Francis + Cato
Sign and trade Ginobili
And no one has figured out what the Lakers could offer

Considering these rumors I would have said that the Suns were definitely in the drivers seat with just a Marion and maybe a 1st offer. But the Francis rumor is interesting. That throws a monkey wrench in things. Lakers have nothing and Ginobili not only has to agree to the trade but he's simply not enough. It would have to be Parker and Ginobili. It definitely seems that the Suns have more bargaining power IF McGrady has indeed made these very specific demands. Interesting.

http://www.woai.com/spurs/story.aspx?content_id=1A61A046-B55E-4B2C-90CC-595B5AC2F179

 

[Chaplin]

Of course, it IS a Spurs article, after all. Not sure exactly what the credibility of the source is.

 

[elindholm]

The Lakers can't offer anything, unless you count a sign-and-trade for Bryant.

Parker and Ginoboli are good players, but I doubt that the Magic would trade McGrady for several good players if they instead have the option of someone at All-Star level.

Francis's claim to fame these days (rightly or wrongly) is that he can't adjust his game to feeding the ball in the middle. That's not especially encouraging.

If those are really the offers, the Suns are the clear front-runner.

 

[Chaplin]

Well, if Francis went to Orlando, it's not like he'd have anyone to pass to anyway. So nobody would really complain that he's a non-passing point guard in Orlando.

I agree, our offer seems the best, even just a Marion and a first for TMac.

But I'm still wondering if TMac will be traded at all this summer. I think the odds have got to be no better than 50/50.

 

[George O'Brien]

Well, if Francis went to Orlando, it's not like he'd have anyone to pass to anyway. So nobody would really complain that he's a non-passing point guard in Orlando.

I agree, our offer seems the best, even just a Marion and a first for TMac.

But I'm still wondering if TMac will be traded at all this summer. I think the odds have got to be no better than 50/50.

The Magic will have a lot of offers (for example, the Detroit Free Press is calling for the Pistons to make an offer. Prince, Okur (sign and trade), and Delifino might be attractive to the Magic.) But no one is able to offer someone capable of replacing what T-Mac can do. If they make a move, there will be a lot of second guessing in Orlando because the fans will feel they did not get enough.

 

[fordronken]

And by the way, we're using Peter Vescey as a reference again.

 

[elindholm]

And by the way, we're using Peter Vescey as a reference again.

Thus the liberal use of the word "if."

 

[hcsilla]

I don't know if you know but Vecsey is a hungarian name.

I'm not sure that raised my questionable popularity on this board...

 

[JCSunsfan]

With that list of offers, its fairly clear that Orlando is going to have to take less for McGrady than anyone thinks.

The safe prediction would be that whoever gets McGrady will "rob" Orlando in everyone else's mind.

I'd offer Marion, the 7th pick, and Eisley.

Now, I know you are all going to say "Orlando would never do it." To which I say, they are the ones that have to trade the player--not us.

This situation is alot like the Barkley situation. We gave up Tim Perry, Andrew Lang, and Horny. Barkely was a better player and we gave up less.

 

[JCSunsfan]

The Lakers can't offer anything, unless you count a sign-and-trade for Bryant.
.

Right. And since sign and trade deals are usually orchestrated as much by the FA players as by the teams involved, I can't see Kobe wanting to go to Orlando.

 

[Dylan]

I agree that Orlando is not dealing out of strength.. when a player
wants to leave, you just get the best you can. We were forced to
trade Barkley, he made it so we had to. Even tho we got several
players, they weren't stars... Horry, Mark Bryant and Cassell (who was
good, but not the player he is now)..
Detroit was forced to take what Orlando wanted to give for Grant Hill,
they didn't know Ben Wallace would turn out to be what he is...
They got real lucky on that one, especially with what happened to Hill.
That list of teams for McGrady really hurts Orlando.
Could be good news for us.

 

[playstation]

first of all, detroit can't include okur with other players in a sign and trade. sign&trade is only allowed if you trade only the one player, packaging is against the rules. that being said, if detroit offered prince, darko, and delfino/1st rd pick, that would be very interesting. all prospects for sure, but thats pretty intriguiging.

houston has a shot simply because francis is still a guy that can put people in seats, albeit less than before.

the early rumors of pacers offering harrington & bender are also interesting, but still, neither is a star.

portland offering some of their expirirng max contracts for hill/mcgrady is interesting also, but probably not going to happen just because that means orlando starts completely from scratch.

To me, the most interesting of all possibilities is what orlando may do this summer to keep mcgrady. what if they get a C for the MLE (maybe foyle/blount???), draft okafor, and trade howard/gooden for a decent pg (like a dixon or claxton or jaric)? now their lineup (assuming tmac stays) is

c- foyle/blount
pf- okafor
sf- howard/gooden (whichever stays)
sg- tmac
pg- dixon/claxton/jaric

is that enough for him to stay? i don't know, but thats about as good as I can see orlando getting this summer. tell me your thoughts on this.

overall, I have to agree with everyone on this, we currently have the best offer on the table. I think marion/1st rd pick (assuming we're not #1/2)/jacobson & possibly voskuhl should be enough (at absolute worst, we might have to add in vujanic). if its not, then its up to tmac to force the issue. he'll go where he wants to go, so i'm not too worried

the one issue I think I have is that assuming the trade I mentioned above goes down, we most likely can't get rid of white/eisley's contract, because we've lost our pick as the bargaining chip. some may say the cleveland pick might do, and you might be right, but my gut says its not going to be. i don't know if thats really bad though, i'd rather take that situation than what we're in now!

 

[elindholm]

The Barkley comparison is a good one -- for both times he was traded. When he came to Phoenix from Philadelphia, the Sixers got one good player (Hornacek) and two role players (Lang, Perry) in return, but none of those three was anywhere near Barkley's level. And the package that the Suns later got from Houston, with Cassell the best of four players, was frankly pretty lousy.

 

[F-Dog]

That's pretty select company for the Suns to be in, considering they barely avoided finishing in last place this year.


I don't see Ginobili agreeing to a S&T to Orlando either, so I'd pretty much write off the Spurs as well as the Lakers.

Houston? Depends on what the Magic think of Steve Francis. I think Francis takes things off the table as quickly as he puts them on, but I'm not running things in Orlando, am I?

For Phoenix, the only trade that makes sense to me is JJ and filler--I think that Marion has negative trade value for Orlando, since they've been so adept at wooing free agents, and that the Suns' draft pick is worth much more with them than it would be if Orlando had it. The problem would be agreeing on how much and what kind of filler, and whether the Suns were willing to give up a steady, low-risk player like JJ O) for McGrady and all of his red flags.


I still think that Portland taking McGrady and Grant Hill for expiring contracts makes the most sense, because any fool can see it's rebuilding time in Orlando. Still, Portland isn't on "the list", and as you know, Vecsey is always right about these things...

 

[elindholm]

Theoretically, the Suns could use their cap room to take McGrady for Johnson straight up -- or something very close to that, depending on the exact numbers.

So the question becomes, in Orlando's eyes, who else on the Suns has positive trade value? Stoudemire is off the table, and if they don't want Marion (as you theorize), then who's left? Lampe seems to be about it, or possibly Cabarkapa. I can't imagine someone like Jacobsen or "the rights to Vujanic" holding much appeal to a rebuilding team.

 

[F-Dog]

So the question becomes, in Orlando's eyes, who else on the Suns has positive trade value? Stoudemire is off the table, and if they don't want Marion (as you theorize), then who's left? Lampe seems to be about it, or possibly Cabarkapa. I can't imagine someone like Jacobsen or "the rights to Vujanic" holding much appeal to a rebuilding team.

My guess is that a Phoenix/Orlando trade would look something like this:

Joe Johnson
Cabarkapa
Jahidi White--if Orlando isn't interested in this year's free agents, or

Joe Johnson
Cleveland's pick

if they are.


My guess is the Suns' cap space has positive trade value to Orlando, and so does Lampe and Cabarkapa. (Barbosa and the Suns' pick this year, too, but it's hard to see the Suns parting with either of those assets. Lampe and Zarko at least duplicate each other's contributions a little.)

Is that enough? Would the Suns give that much up for one year of McGrady?

 

[elindholm]

Ah, right, I forgot about the cap space. Orlando would get a trade exemption, correct? I think they can use that in a later trade, but not to pursue a FA directly. (Edit: Oops, my mistake -- after a McGrady/Johnson swap, the Magic would in fact be far under the cap.)

Lampe and Cabarkapa might duplicate one another's contributions now, but that sure isn't the plan for the future to hear some on this board tell it. Lampe is "projected" to be the franchise's savior at center. I haven't seen enough of him to be convinced of that, but his youth alone makes him tough to give up in a trade.

The Suns won't rent McGrady for a year. There's no way they'll make a deal unless they have already gotten a commitment to an extension.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

First off, it was never said he was demading a trade anywhere. Those were simply the teams that he would be willing to resign for (which seems like a pretty good list, although I doubt complete)

FDog, your idea of using JJ and fillers is something to look into for sure.

From the suns side, does it make sense? I would think so actually.

Negatives:

They loose their 2nd most promising young player
They loose their cap space, and ability to chase after any FAs.
They loose a lot of flexibility to make future trades, since they again will have 3 max players (Assuming we will max Amare asap)

Pros:

Shawn Marion would fit better as a 3rd option than JJ.
Shawn is easily the 2nd favorite player, and a huge community asset.
Who can't like Shawn Marion?
There is no doubt our lineup would not only make the playoffs, but they would contend for home court IMO.


That being said, I dont think Orlando would do it. Although it might theoretically make more sense for them, it is a harder sell to the casual fan. Trading a top player for a shaky prospect is never easy. At least with Marion they can refer to him as an olympian and an allstar.

 

[F-Dog]

Lampe and Cabarkapa might duplicate one another's contributions now, but that sure isn't the plan for the future to hear some on this board tell it. Lampe is "projected" to be the franchise's savior at center.

You're trying to get me in trouble now, right?


"Will Lampe be able to play center?" is definitely the $100m question for the Suns right now. If they knew the answer, a lot of these other decisions would make themselves.



GC--I agree, Orlando would probably have a tough time selling something like this. My guess is that Francis + Cato would make more sense to the casual Magic fan.

 

[elindholm]

As long as we're speculating, couldn't a three-way trade work? The Suns would "trade" their cap space to a team looking to get rid of a medium-value player, and then that player would go along to Orlando along with Johnson.

For instance, talent considerations aside, it could work with the Wizards and Stackhouse:

Phoenix gives up Johnson (plus a small something), gets McGrady.
Washington gives up Stackhouse, gets a small something and cap space.
Orlando gives up McGrady, gets Stackhouse and Johnson.

The trick is finding the third team and player. It has to be someone pretty good and on a pretty good contract, but out of favor with his current team for some reason. Stackhouse might fit those characteristics if healthy, but after last year he probably has negative value right now.

If I'm not mistaken, the third player could also be a current FA who re-signs with his own team and then is immediately shipped for "the small something." (Can sign-and-trades be in three-way deals? I'm not sure.)

 

[Joe Mama]

Okay, how is it that F-Dog says that Shawn Marion has negative trade value, and nobody says nothing about it? When I say that I get killed.

Everybody has chimed in about the Phoenix Suns acquiring Kobe Bryant. They would have the same problem of three maximum contracts if they signed Bryant, plus they would be looking at extending JJ. The idea of trading JJ and others for McGrady without including Shawn Marion is interesting though. I just posted in another thread how I would prefer that they kept Shawn Marion with McGrady, but I acknowledge the problems with three maximum contracts.

Count me among those who believe that Steve Francis would be more valuable to a rebuilding franchise than Shawn Marion.

Joe Mama

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

The trick is finding the third team and player. It has to be someone pretty good and on a pretty good contract, but out of favor with his current team for some reason. Stackhouse might fit those characteristics if healthy, but after last year he probably has negative value right now.

Also, the third team would most likely have to be in the East for that to happen. I don't think any West teams will want to help the suns add Mcgrady to Marion and Amare, and only recieve cap space.



Joe, I dont think Shawn has negative trade value, I just think that the JJ trade makes more sense for them. Of course, like I said, I still think they would be more likely to do a Marion trade.

 

[pokerface]

Marion has definate value because he's young and can fill up a stat sheet....plus he's*under long term contract so he's basicly owned for a long time. He's a nice player to have for a rebuild. The fact that we could add other young players and/or a high draft pick makes for an atractive offer to a rebuilding Orlando team.

Francis would be a nice offer too but I dont feel they have other attractive pieces to go with Stevie to be as good a deal as we'd offer.

 

[Joe Mama]

Marion has definate value because he's young and can fill up a stat sheet....plus he's*under long term contract so he's basicly owned for a long time. He's a nice player to have for a rebuild. The fact that we could add other young players and/or a high draft pick makes for an atractive offer to a rebuilding Orlando team.

Francis would be a nice offer too but I dont feel they have other attractive pieces to go with Stevie to be as good a deal as we'd offer.

It's the size and length of that contract that makes Shawn Marion's worth questionable. Shawn Marion will make $11.3 million next season. That's just too much for him, and it's going to keep increasing for five years after that. The real question is how much is he really worth?

Joe Mama

 

[hsandhu]

Fair point, but if you're the worst team in the league, and the smart thing to do is rebuild the franchise around young talent, what looks like a better core to build around.

Ben Gordon (assume off suns 1st pick)
Shawn Marion (age 26)
Emeka Okafor (assume they end up with him)
Zarko Cabarkapa (age 23)

Steve Francis (age 27)
Kelvin Cato (age 29)
Emeka Okafor

In my opinion it's clearly the former, yes Marion may be overpaid but the pick and a young prospect like Zarko give you a stronger overall core. If JJ is in there instead of Zarko it's obvious which is better, and nothing Houston can offer w/Francis (even Mobley) can compare. Of course the suns are wisely taking the position that JJ will not be in there because they may feel the above is the best Orlando can get.