Media reaction to the Kolb trade...

[blindseyed]

Oh man Duck, don't open that can!! Just say "Oh yeah gotchs" and move on lol

 

[40yearfan]

You play to win the game.

(i.e. You don't play to impress the media).

To hash over and rehash the merits of the Kolb signing is like running a hot needle back and forth through your thumb.

Kolb is our QB. (El toothpaste no returno el tubo). Let's see what he can do before judging the move. Like Satchel Paige once said: "Don't look back (someone might be gaining on you").

The voice of reason. Thanks Jeff.

I wasn't in favor of this either, but now that it's done, we will all have to live with it. You might as well quit bitchin' and accept the inevitable. Woulda, coulda, shoulda is no longer applicable because it is no longer an option. All we can do is be positive, look to the future and root for our team.

 

[chickenhead]

I am less nervous about the season with Kolb under center and DRC in Philly than I would be with DRC in the secondary and DA/Skelton/Hall under center. And that's what we had--with fewer options actually out there than many are presuming. Arguments that we'd be better off with Orton for a lesser price are totally fair. But we have improved, IMO.

 

[DemsMyBoys]

Matt Leinart is a hall of fame QB.

Thanks, Professor.

 

[Mulli]

Matt Leinart is a hall of fame QB.

eLitE pOst!! I now have you rated 94/100 Fitz 92/100 Beanie 96/100.

 

[AzStevenCal]

eLitE pOst!! I now have you rated 94/100 Fitz 92/100 The Bean 96/100.

FTFY.

Steve

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

eagles fans, give a Plummer why not Cards fans.
I was at the NFCC game in Arizona, I remeber it well. And so do the Eagles fans.

My God, even the way you quote is bass-ackwards.

 

[Paso Fino]

My concern is what this means for Skelton. We paid so much for Kolb that Whiz will be reluctant to bring in Skelton even if Kolb stumbles. I am not so sure that Kolb ultimately will be better than Skelton would be if given the chance.

 

[john h]

CKW and Graves ability to spot to talent has not been very impressive. I also beleive the Cards got taken to the cleaners. Would have kept DRC and went for Orton with a draft pick.

I join the crowd who think we were "had" by the Eagles.

 

[john h]

Precisely.

More "wait-and-see" from them, then quite a few members of this board.

There are many who say we had no choice. I disagree. Other teams passed on Kolb and signed a QB. If he had some extensive experience where we could judge him then this might make more sense. We just purchased a very expensive pig in a poke. I hope for all concerned he turns out to be what some think he will be. Someone is going to look like a genius or an idiot. No in between on this one. We just gave away an all pro DB and a 2nd round pick aside from Kolbs long term expensive contract. We are stuck with him for better or worse. The sure winner on this is Kolb and his agent. Kolb should send his former coach a big bonus as he proved he is a salesman extraordinary.

 

[football karma]

Urban said it best-- if Kolb is good, the comp was cheap. If he isn't good, then anything would have been too much.

I hate to see DRC go, but here is one thing I saw as a red flag (and it wasn't his tackling)-- even in his third year, there were these consistent reports about his "concentration" and "engagement in the game". The guy doesn't have the most mature personality to begin with, and the fact that his mind would wander from snap to snap even in his third year made me wonder if this would ever change.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

There are many who say we had no choice. I disagree. Other teams passed on Kolb and signed a QB. If he had some extensive experience where we could judge him then this might make more sense. We just purchased a very expensive pig in a poke. I hope for all concerned he turns out to be what some think he will be. Someone is going to look like a genius or an idiot. No in between on this one. We just gave away an all pro DB and a 2nd round pick aside from Kolbs long term expensive contract. We are stuck with him for better or worse. The sure winner on this is Kolb and his agent. Kolb should send his former coach a big bonus as he proved he is a salesman extraordinary.

No doubt, there are the team's that decided to go with retreads.

QBOP (QB's of the past)

We gave up a FORMER Pro Bowl cornerback with attention deficit disorder, and an El Matador approach to run support, as well as a, "bird in the bush" second round pick.

At $10m per annum. his contract, is a relatively small percentage of the CAP, which will, in fact, diminish as a % over time. If he under performs, he'll never see the $63m, and if he out performs it will be re-done at some point.

 

[Chaz]

ESPN NFC East Blogger Dan Graziano

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/28851/kolb-to-cards-is-eye-of-beholder-deal

But what if you're the Cardinals, and you really think Kevin Kolb is your present and future answer at the most important position on the field? What if the Cardinals are right, and Kolb really does turn out to be a good starting NFL quarterback -- one who deserves that kind of money. As recently as a year ago, Eagles coach Andy Reid was so willing to bet on Kolb as an NFL starter that he traded Donovan McNabb to a division rival and installed Kolb as his starter for Game 1 of the 2010 season. Had Kolb not been hurt in the first game, he could have played great (as Reid believed he could) and this whole Vick thing might never have happened.

Clearly, that's where the Cardinals are with Kolb. Whether they're right or wrong remains to be seen. But Arizona compensated the Eagles not as if they were getting a backup quarterback, but as if they were getting a starter -- and a long-term one at that. That's the bet they're placing, and if they turn out to be right, then the price they paid today will look anything but silly in retrospect. If Kolb becomes what the Cardinals think he can -- and what Reid thought he could at this time last year -- we could end up looking back on this deal and thinking it was the Eagles who got taken.

Just saying.

 

[Chaz]

I think the Cards over-paid. I would have gone after Orton so we wouldn't have to give up a pro-bowl player.

However it is done now.
I hope it works and later this year we don't mind how much was paid because we have a legitimate starting QB.

 

[Pariah]

As recently as a year ago, Eagles coach Andy Reid was so willing to bet on Kolb as an NFL starter that he traded Donovan McNabb to a division rival and installed Kolb as his starter for Game 1 of the 2010 season.

This is the biggest thing that gives me hope for (cornonthe) Kolb.

 

[WisconsinCard]

I say it was worth the gamble. With 22 mil guaranteed it is a two year (try-out) contract if he is a bust. If that happens then John Skelton hopefully will be ready to take the reins.

 

[CardsFan88]

It really is funny how the media, masters of idiocy, saying 'we had to do it'.

Sophistry and media go hand and hand. Like a moth to a flame.

Overpaying for someone, doesn't prove you aren't cheap. It makes people suspect you don't know what the hell you are doing. Well those that don't believe the bs sophistry.

We had to do this? Did this guarantee Fitz's re-signing? If Kolb turns out sucking, or gets more concussions....will fitz re-sign? Do they know that Fitz would have not re-signed if we got say Orton? Somebody else?

The media makes flat out assumptions, reads into the sophistry, and takes a bite.

We paid far too much, for a guy that hasn't proven squat. Somehow if Fitz wants to be on a GOOD team, not just one with a QB, even if assuming we got a good one, we still subtract a good piece, and will be prevented from adding a potential good piece next year, hindering our chances to be a good team. (like Dansby, KVB, Boldin, etc)

I swear, people need to stop buying SOPHISTRY. But then again, if we did that, 90 percent of our problems wouldn't exist in this world...and we still haven't figured this easily identified aspect out. It's the bs that we believe to be true, that holds us back. (want an example, look at my sig, and think of the farce of debate going on in the media and a certain city today...all pure sophistry...the answer is easy as pie)

Now that we have Kolb, I'll hope for the best, even if that doesn't change anything. Good luck Kolb, it's your pow-wow now. Make the cards fo look good, because they sure and the hell paid too much for you. You don't trade on the possibilities for the future, you trade based on what someone is now. Otherwise, anyone you trade for or away could be a future all-pro. Are they? Hell no. That's how you get taken to the cleaners. People that believe sophistry as a rule, get taken far more often.

Always in the equation is what else was there? Orton, Hasselbeck, McNabb, and more. To say we needed to get Kolb, with all those others out there for the taking, either trade or sign, is flat out wrong...and what did people pay to get them? A hell of a lot less than what we paid. We paid exponentially more. Will we get exponential production? More like +/- 20 percent.

That's not a sign of not being cheap, it's a sign of incompetence. If they're right, it's in spite of this fact. Because someone in the end, wins the lottery. Not because you 'knew the numbers'.

 

[Ed Burmila]

Who cares what the analysts say. If he works out, no one remembers what we gave up. If he doesn't work out, we have bigger problems than lamenting what we surrendered to Philly.

 

[40yearfan]

It really is funny how the media, masters of idiocy, saying 'we had to do it'.

Sophistry and media go hand and hand. Like a moth to a flame.

Overpaying for someone, doesn't prove you aren't cheap. It makes people suspect you don't know what the hell you are doing. Well those that don't believe the bs sophistry.

We had to do this? Did this guarantee Fitz's re-signing? If Kolb turns out sucking, or gets more concussions....will fitz re-sign? Do they know that Fitz would have not re-signed if we got say Orton? Somebody else?

The media makes flat out assumptions, reads into the sophistry, and takes a bite.

We paid far too much, for a guy that hasn't proven squat. Somehow if Fitz wants to be on a GOOD team, not just one with a QB, even if assuming we got a good one, we still subtract a good piece, and will be prevented from adding a potential good piece next year, hindering our chances to be a good team. (like Dansby, KVB, Boldin, etc)

I swear, people need to stop buying SOPHISTRY. But then again, if we did that, 90 percent of our problems wouldn't exist in this world...and we still haven't figured this easily identified aspect out. It's the bs that we believe to be true, that holds us back. (want an example, look at my sig, and think of the farce of debate going on in the media and a certain city today...all pure sophistry...the answer is easy as pie)

Now that we have Kolb, I'll hope for the best, even if that doesn't change anything. Good luck Kolb, it's your pow-wow now. Make the cards fo look good, because they sure and the hell paid too much for you. You don't trade on the possibilities for the future, you trade based on what someone is now. Otherwise, anyone you trade for or away could be a future all-pro. Are they? Hell no. That's how you get taken to the cleaners. People that believe sophistry as a rule, get taken far more often.

Always in the equation is what else was there? Orton, Hasselbeck, McNabb, and more. To say we needed to get Kolb, with all those others out there for the taking, either trade or sign, is flat out wrong...and what did people pay to get them? A hell of a lot less than what we paid. We paid exponentially more. Will we get exponential production? More like +/- 20 percent.

That's not a sign of not being cheap, it's a sign of incompetence. If they're right, it's in spite of this fact. Because someone in the end, wins the lottery. Not because you 'knew the numbers'.

I'll betcha your a riot in Vegas.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

It really is funny how the media, masters of idiocy, saying 'we had to do it'.

Sophistry and media go hand and hand. Like a moth to a flame.

Overpaying for someone, doesn't prove you aren't cheap. It makes people suspect you don't know what the hell you are doing. Well those that don't believe the bs sophistry.

We had to do this? Did this guarantee Fitz's re-signing? If Kolb turns out sucking, or gets more concussions....will fitz re-sign? Do they know that Fitz would have not re-signed if we got say Orton? Somebody else?

The media makes flat out assumptions, reads into the sophistry, and takes a bite.

We paid far too much, for a guy that hasn't proven squat. Somehow if Fitz wants to be on a GOOD team, not just one with a QB, even if assuming we got a good one, we still subtract a good piece, and will be prevented from adding a potential good piece next year, hindering our chances to be a good team. (like Dansby, KVB, Boldin, etc)

I swear, people need to stop buying SOPHISTRY. But then again, if we did that, 90 percent of our problems wouldn't exist in this world...and we still haven't figured this easily identified aspect out. It's the bs that we believe to be true, that holds us back. (want an example, look at my sig, and think of the farce of debate going on in the media and a certain city today...all pure sophistry)

Now that we have Kolb, I'll hope for the best, even if that doesn't change anything. Good luck Kolb, it's your pow-wow now. Make the cards fo look good, because they sure and the hell paid too much for you. You don't trade on the possibilities for the future, you trade based on what someone is now. Otherwise, anyone you trade for or away could be a future all-pro. Are they? Hell no. That's how you get taken to the cleaners. People that believe sophistry as a rule, get taken far more often.

That's not a sign of not being cheap, it's a sign of incompetence. If they're right, it's in spite of this fact. Because someone in the end, wins the lottery. Not because you 'knew the numbers'.

Well, there's no shortage of questionable premise... convoluted analogies, crystal ball gazing and, dare I say... sophistry, in your ongoing harangue on this issue.

IT'S DONE! RELAX and re-visit the issue a few years down the road.

Who knows, you MAY be proven right.

(and I somehow doubt you'll have much to say on the issue, if proven wrong.)

 

[Ed Burmila]

CF88, I bet if Kolb throws 4300 yards and 28 TDs you won't care about any of the stuff you complained about here.

If he's a big flop, believe me, we're all going to feel the pain.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It really is funny how the media, masters of idiocy, saying 'we had to do it'.

Sophistry and media go hand and hand. Like a moth to a flame.

Overpaying for someone, doesn't prove you aren't cheap. It makes people suspect you don't know what the hell you are doing. Well those that don't believe the bs sophistry.

We had to do this? Did this guarantee Fitz's re-signing? If Kolb turns out sucking, or gets more concussions....will fitz re-sign? Do they know that Fitz would have not re-signed if we got say Orton? Somebody else?

The media makes flat out assumptions, reads into the sophistry, and takes a bite.

We paid far too much, for a guy that hasn't proven squat. Somehow if Fitz wants to be on a GOOD team, not just one with a QB, even if assuming we got a good one, we still subtract a good piece, and will be prevented from adding a potential good piece next year, hindering our chances to be a good team. (like Dansby, KVB, Boldin, etc)

I swear, people need to stop buying SOPHISTRY. But then again, if we did that, 90 percent of our problems wouldn't exist in this world...and we still haven't figured this easily identified aspect out. It's the bs that we believe to be true, that holds us back. (want an example, look at my sig, and think of the farce of debate going on in the media and a certain city today...all pure sophistry...the answer is easy as pie)

Now that we have Kolb, I'll hope for the best, even if that doesn't change anything. Good luck Kolb, it's your pow-wow now. Make the cards fo look good, because they sure and the hell paid too much for you. You don't trade on the possibilities for the future, you trade based on what someone is now. Otherwise, anyone you trade for or away could be a future all-pro. Are they? Hell no. That's how you get taken to the cleaners. People that believe sophistry as a rule, get taken far more often.

Always in the equation is what else was there? Orton, Hasselbeck, McNabb, and more. To say we needed to get Kolb, with all those others out there for the taking, either trade or sign, is flat out wrong...and what did people pay to get them? A hell of a lot less than what we paid. We paid exponentially more. Will we get exponential production? More like +/- 20 percent.

That's not a sign of not being cheap, it's a sign of incompetence. If they're right, it's in spite of this fact. Because someone in the end, wins the lottery. Not because you 'knew the numbers'.

With all the Kolb threads we have now and will have in the near future you're going to get plenty of opportunities to continue beating this drum. I can't say I'm looking forward to it. No matter how often you bring this up, you're still basing your conclusions on your opinion. Justifying this trade is far from sophistry unless you start with your assumptions and many of us do not. I think we overpaid, slightly. If we did it because the coaching staff is convinced this guy is the real deal than it's a smart move. If we did it out of desperation, then it was a stupid decision and it will probably haunt this franchise for several years.

Steve

 

[Totally_Red]

When you start from the realization that if Graves & Whisenhunt versus Reid & Banner were a prize fight it would be stopped in the first seconds of the first round, you realize that the Cardinals were never going to come out ahead based on past performance. They were never going to walk away and go another direction if the price was too high unlike the Dolphins with Kyle Orton. If you're NOT willing to do that, you are probably going to overpay when dealing with the Eagles. It's no different than purchasing a new car in that respect. However I very much do want to sell Rod his new next car.

They are taking a risk and going all in on Kevin Kolb. I disagreed with the price tag, but not necessarily on obtaining KK. Now that he's a Cardinal, I hope he outplays Michael Vick and makes Andy Reid and the Eagles look very foolish and CKW and Rod look like geniuses.

 

[CardsFan88]

Well, there's no shortage of questionable premise... convoluted analogies, crystal ball gazing and, dare I say... sophistry, in your ongoing harangue on this issue.

IT'S DONE! RELAX and re-visit the issue a few years down the road.

Who knows, you MAY be proven right.

(and I somehow doubt you'll have much to say on the issue, if proven wrong.)

Oh I'm relaxed, I just find this as a perfect teaching opportunity of what faulty thinking brings.

What about it is wrong? It's not a 'result' oriented position, it's the process we went through that was all messed up, resulting in giving up too much for an unsure thing.

That part will never be proven 'wrong'.

Now, can it be that it works out all right, or in our favor? Sure. I've never said it couldn't be. But you don't make decisions based on that.

That's the point. You don't bs yourself into making a deal, saying down the road, we'll be proven right. You make the decision based on getting concrete value, especially when you give up a pro-bowl player, and a high draft pick. Giving what we give up IS CONCRETE. So it's a bit unfair to judge something where we give up something concrete, and don't expect it in return? Then forget than in the judging calculation? I think that's wrong.

Even if he wins 5 super bowls for us, we made the trade, not based off THAT knowledge, we made it off what we currently know. That's bad decision making, especially when you see the price levels of everything else. I'm not advocating going out and getting two buck chuck, but a 20 dollar bottle will get you just as drunk, as a 2,000 dollar bottle.

I've already right, because it's the PROCESS, not the OUTCOME, I'm bashing. Always doing an unoptimal process, eventually leads to negative outcomes. Even if here or there some circumstance and luck cover ones butt for a bad decision. Maybe we get 'lucky' here, it doesn't change the fact our front office did things stupidly.

Therefore whatever is the case with Kolb has no bearing on what I said. Because this is big picture, and process oriented critique. Of course I'll be here, I've been here since the beginning haven't I? But again, what's to critique? They gave up too much based on known facts. Because some people hit on those a few times out of a hundred, doesn't mean they went about it the right way. It means they weren't screwed like normal (as in anyone acting foolishly) and got away with being stupid in the front office.

Oh yeah, I'm a blast in vegas. Clubs and bars. Not much on the gambling. Because that's the 3rd reason to go. I have too much fun with the first two, which of course also involve women. Chips, or alcohol/nightlife and women? ROFL. Tao, Pure, Rain, Tangerine, Spearmint Rhino, etc, etc. O'Sheas.

Besides, I'd learn how to count cards and play 21 if I wanted to go there and focus on gambling. I could add and subtract at 18 months, so fast add/subtracting really is a skill of mine since well, birth. Just never bothered myself to learn card-counting or applying it. Though with 8 deck blackjack they dilute your odds. So I wouldn't try being stupid, and focus on the ones that say 2 or 4 deck blackjack on the windows, and not be too greedy.

But yeah I'm done with the 'teaching moment', it is done, I just had to comment on the idiocy of the media, since they are all idiots. Otherwise Glass-Steagall would be on their lips, instead of all the CONgress people's butts. The fact they don't mention the obvious, after three obvious years, because of their belief in all things sophistry, extending all across the spectrum to even Sports, where sophistry should be the S in ESPN, just gets under my skin. These blowhard who know nothing talk sophistry and dish it out like it's fact and get paid far too much. They even *think* they are journalists. It's laughable, if it wasn't so sad. I always allow for errors, and don't say believe this analogy like it's stone. But sadly the other side, always does just that. We're supposed to believe that this quells fitz's demands? or had to do this because there weren't any other legitimate option to fitz? they push out so much nothing, and then make a determination that is just flat wrong. Just because people are getting paid to say something, doesn't mean they should be paid

Process, not results.
Right process = better results long term
Wrong process = perhaps right here, worse results long term

Next time we have a 'choice' to make, more people should be armed with what is possible, and train their brains to actually think, instead of latching onto bs sophistry that points to some 'can't win them all' bs. I use sophistry as an example, and concede it could be the wrong 'example', I never use it first and foremost as a 'reason'. These blowhards, use them as 'reasons', and rarely ever anything else. Then hold firm, like it's some universal law of nature. 'They had to do it' - There IS a major difference.

I love the Cards, and I want Kolb to succeed. But the process they went through in total, seemed like fantasy land wishful thinking, rather than a real process. I hope they don't repeat it in future circumstances, because if repeated enough times, they're going to get burned in a large proportion of such decisions based on fantasy land processes.

I hope, despite the cards front office idiocy, and the media's idiocy, we luck out, and got our QBOF, but nothing these people presented was a valid reason I should believe it to be so, and none of them even focused on the difference between the alternatives, especially via the cost.

But sports is generally blindsville, where the one eyed gm is king. I'd rather have a gm with two eyes, because it's entirely possible. Think of what could be accomplished then.

With all the Kolb threads we have now and will have in the near future you're going to get plenty of opportunities to continue beating this drum. I can't say I'm looking forward to it. No matter how often you bring this up, you're still basing your conclusions on your opinion. Justifying this trade is far from sophistry unless you start with your assumptions and many of us do not. I think we overpaid, slightly. If we did it because the coaching staff is convinced this guy is the real deal than it's a smart move. If we did it out of desperation, then it was a stupid decision and it will probably haunt this franchise for several years.

Steve

Why would I continue it? This was mostly a bash of the media's idiotic reporting of it. Since people didn't understand (and I sometimes preempt that) what I was critiquing in the process, I had to go back through it again.

It's not an opinion. We had other opportunities right? Far less compensation right?

We did this and don't know if Fitz will sign right?

The sophistry, is the people are FOOLING THEMSELVES based on bs lines that mean nothing in the grand scheme of things to say this was a good deal.

History does not bear this out. 3-5th round is the usual price for trading for players.

We paid DRC (a pro bowl player) + 2nd round for one player, a guy who is the backup on his team, who's stats aren't great (but not horrible), and was knocked out of opening day last year with a concussion.

Saying we have our QBOF, doesn't mean we have it. If he performs we have it. But lots of teams say they have their new QBOF just about every year. Is one dumb to conclude that perhaps we haven't just because others say we have? Given the knowledge we have?

In the press conference I didn't hear 'convinced'. Even 'convinced' can be wrong, if the person that is convinced, is an idiot. I'm not saying they are, but I sure didn't hear 'convinced'. I heard them say, he was the best of the group. But was the group any good? If the group wasn't good, it would have been wiser to pay less compensation, and reload for next year.

I heard they felt 'comfortable' with his stats. I heard they are comfortable with his answers from the combine. I didn't hear what I wanted to hear. I heard them say they felt they got the best of the group that was out there. But was that worth the price difference of giving it up?

It's about process. We went about the process badly, and people are overlooking that. I'm not.

Next time, I hope the process is better. Because I want our fo to be held to a higher, clearer thinking standard.

We paid the price, like we did know, when in reality, we hoped we knew. That should be known. Because it more accurately describes the process. We paid like we knew, but did we? That's something you don't do, you pay for what you know, not what you think you might know. It's an important distinction.

Again, good luck Kolb.