Mike Mayock's prediction regarding Robert Quinn.

[Chopper0080]

4.4 speed is great for a 275 pound guy, but that is with a hand on the ground and going straight forward. I am more concerned with how he moves laterally and backwards as far as being the best fit as a 3-4 OLB. His positional drills are way mroe important for 3-4 teams than his 40 time is. Besides, I am already thinking that he goes to Denver to play DE anyway.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I doubt he runs a 4.4,or even a 4.5. Even if he runs in the 4.6 range, that's impressive for a guys his size.

 

[Hypothesis]

That problem ended my son's football career. A big tough kid with good instincts for the football but was just slow as Christmas getting off the ball and so blockers were always able to get to him or the play would go right past him.

Decided that Varsity Tennis was a better option.

It's something that is coachable, I'm not too concerned with it.

 

[Hypothesis]

4.4 speed is great for a 275 pound guy, but that is with a hand on the ground and going straight forward. I am more concerned with how he moves laterally and backwards as far as being the best fit as a 3-4 OLB. His positional drills are way mroe important for 3-4 teams than his 40 time is. Besides, I am already thinking that he goes to Denver to play DE anyway.

You're right, he wasn't asked to drop into coverage, but there have been numerous times he's flared to the flat and batted down the passes to the RBs. His lateral movement is extremely fluid and quick and his change of direction is impressive. I have no doubts he has the ability to drop.

 

[Chopper0080]

You're right, he wasn't asked to drop into coverage, but there have been numerous times he's flared to the flat and batted down the passes to the RBs. His lateral movement is extremely fluid and quick and his change of direction is impressive. I have no doubts he has the ability to drop.

You make playing off the line of scrimmage on defense sound much easier than what it actually is. Making your read off of a guy who is 6 inches from you, and making your read off a linemen and then through to a back are two totally different things. More than that, dropping into the correct coverage after diagnosing a pass read is much more difficult to do than reading a pass set by a tackle and then covering the flat is.

Hopefully we will see something in the drills on Monday that will brnig this debate to conclusion.

 

[Duckjake]

You're right, he wasn't asked to drop into coverage, but there have been numerous times he's flared to the flat and batted down the passes to the RBs. His lateral movement is extremely fluid and quick and his change of direction is impressive. I have no doubts he has the ability to drop.

I really think too much emphasis is placed on pass coverage by the 3-4 OLBs. If that is what you want then you'd play guys like Dansby there instead of Porter. Dansby 6'4" 250. Porter 6'3" 248. It's funny though that many of the same people who said Dansby was too light to play olb in a 3-4 think that Miller can.

 

[Hypothesis]

You make playing off the line of scrimmage on defense sound much easier than what it actually is. Making your read off of a guy who is 6 inches from you, and making your read off a linemen and then through to a back are two totally different things. More than that, dropping into the correct coverage after diagnosing a pass read is much more difficult to do than reading a pass set by a tackle and then covering the flat is.

Hopefully we will see something in the drills on Monday that will brnig this debate to conclusion.

Never said it was easy. I'm basing it on what both Ken and Ray keep emphasizing that rookies don't start often. I'm guessing that anyone we draft won't be starting, and that they will be sitting and learning the system.

As far as Robert Quinn goes, based on watching him, he has more than enough athletic ability to physically do what is asked of him, and from everything I've heard, he is extremely coachable and very bright. So mentally, it might take him a year to get the defense down, but I feel he is the superior talent and a better prospect.

 

[Hypothesis]

I really think too much emphasis is placed on pass coverage by the 3-4 OLBs. If that is what you want then you'd play guys like Dansby there instead of Porter. Dansby 6'4" 250. Porter 6'3" 248. It's funny though that many of the same people who said Dansby was too light to play olb in a 3-4 think that Miller can.

Pittsburgh routinely has their LBs drop into coverage and I suspect Ray Horton will want the same here.

 

[Chopper0080]

I really think too much emphasis is placed on pass coverage by the 3-4 OLBs. If that is what you want then you'd play guys like Dansby there instead of Porter. Dansby 6'4" 250. Porter 6'3" 248. It's funny though that many of the same people who said Dansby was too light to play olb in a 3-4 think that Miller can.

An outside linebackers ability to drop into coverage is a key element in a 3-4 defense that utilizes the zone blitz. That is what makes the zone blitz so effective as you don't know who is rushing and who is in coverage.

 

[Chopper0080]

Never said it was easy. I'm basing it on what both Ken and Ray keep emphasizing that rookies don't start often. I'm guessing that anyone we draft won't be starting, and that they will be sitting and learning the system.

As far as Robert Quinn goes, based on watching him, he has more than enough athletic ability to physically do what is asked of him, and from everything I've heard, he is extremely coachable and very bright. So mentally, it might take him a year to get the defense down, but I feel he is the superior talent and a better prospect.

We disagree, and I hope that I am wrong if we take him.

 

[Duckjake]

Pittsburgh routinely has their LBs drop into coverage and I suspect Ray Horton will want the same here.

Please stop with the Pittsburgh references. We don't have Dick LeBeau. Pittsburgh could lose all 4 of their starting LBs the day before the season opener and still win.

They went 3-1 despite losing their starting QB for all those games. We lose our starting QB (Warner retires) and can't even pick up a first down.

 

[Buckybird]

Pittsburgh routinely has their LBs drop into coverage and I suspect Ray Horton will want the same here.

And I'm almost willing to bet that Woodley & Harrison bring the gas 70-75% of the time on pass plays.

 

[Duckjake]

An outside linebackers ability to drop into coverage is a key element in a 3-4 defense that utilizes the zone blitz. That is what makes the zone blitz so effective as you don't know who is rushing and who is in coverage.

So why wasn't our best coverage LB, Dansby, playing outside instead of Okeafor?

Why aren't the OLBs in the 3-4 guys like Dansby or Martez Wilson instead of Merriman or Hali or Ware or Pace if all that matters is your coverage skills?

 

[Hypothesis]

Please stop with the Pittsburgh references. We don't have Dick LeBeau. Pittsburgh could lose all 4 of their starting LBs the day before the season opener and still win.

They went 3-1 despite losing their starting QB for all those games. We lose our starting QB (Warner retires) and can't even pick up a first down.

Why...it's valid. Ray Horton is a Lebeau disciple and has said this defense will mainly be Lebeau's system.

 

[Hypothesis]

And I'm almost willing to bet that Woodley & Harrison bring the gas 70-75% of the time on pass plays.

There's times when both of them come, but other times when one comes and the other drops. It's how the Lebeau fire zone blitz scheme works.

 

[Hypothesis]

So why wasn't our best coverage LB, Dansby, playing outside instead of Okeafor?

Why aren't the OLBs in the 3-4 guys like Dansby or Martez Wilson instead of Merriman or Hali or Ware or Pace if all that matters is your coverage skills?

He never said an OLBs coverage skills were all that mattered. But it is an important aspect of the scheme. ILB's have to be able to drop into coverage as well. Especially in the system Horton is bringing here. K.C., Dallas and NYJ don't run the same type of defense that Horton is installing.

 

[Duckjake]

Why...it's valid. Ray Horton is a Lebeau disciple and has said this defense will mainly be Lebeau's system.

No it is not. We are the Cardinals not the Steelers. Grimm was going to bring the Steelers Offensive line skills to Arizona. Didn't happen. None of the former Steeler players we have brought in have changed anything. Nothing about CKWs defenses have had any resemblance to Pittsburgh's.

The Steelers have a far superior organization. Just bringing in their secondary coach isn't going to make us like them on defense. The Steelers haven't been 5-11 since 1988. This was our fourth time in nine years.

 

[Hypothesis]

No it is not. We are the Cardinals not the Steelers. Grimm was going to bring the Steelers Offensive line skills to Arizona. Didn't happen. None of the former Steeler players we have brought in have changed anything. Nothing about CKWs defenses have had any resemblance to Pittsburgh's.

The Steelers have a far superior organization. Just bringing in their secondary coach isn't going to make us like them on defense. The Steelers haven't been 5-11 since 1988. This was our fourth time in nine years.

You're right, we are the Cardinals and not the Steelers, but when Horton said he is bringing Lebeau's system to Arizona I guess he must just be talking out the side of his neck huh?

I'm not talking about how our players execute the system, I'm talking about the system itself. It is very valid.

And CKW has never had a Lebeau disciple here until now either to run the defense.

 

[Duckjake]

He never said an OLBs coverage skills were all that mattered. But it is an important aspect of the scheme. ILB's have to be able to drop into coverage as well. Especially in the system Horton is bringing here. K.C., Dallas and NYJ don't run the same type of defense that Horton is installing.

Yes he did and so are you. He said it was a key element. You say it is an important aspect of the scheme. If that is the case why wouldn't you use a guy like Dansby or Martez Wilson as your OLB? Coverage skills for a 3-4 LB are overrated. All he needs to do is be able to drop into a specific area and run through his reads. Ball in your zone, man in your zone. I don't see where you need to do this for years in college to be good at it.

 

[Duckjake]

You're right, we are the Cardinals and not the Steelers, but when Horton said he is bringing Lebeau's system to Arizona I guess he must just be talking out the side of his neck huh?

I'm not talking about how our players execute the system, I'm talking about the system itself. It is very valid.

And CKW has never had a Lebeau disciple here until now either to run the defense.

Still just wishful thinking. Their organization is simply far better than ours. They lose BR for 4 games and go 3-1 and go to another SB. We lose Warner and can't even pick up a first down.

 

[Hypothesis]

Yes he did and so are you. He said it was a key element. You say it is an important aspect of the scheme. If that is the case why wouldn't you use a guy like Dansby or Martez Wilson as your OLB? Coverage skills for a 3-4 LB are overrated. All he needs to do is be able to drop into a specific area and run through his reads. Ball in your zone, man in your zone. I don't see where you need to do this for years in college to be good at it.

Neither of us said an OLBs coverage skills were all that mattered, we just said it was an important aspect.

The OLB has to be able to both rush the passer and drop. Dansby was not as skilled a rusher as he was in coverage and his range made him valuable in the middle. Martez Wilson isn't even drafted yet, but some folks are actually considering him a better prospect at 3-4 OLB than inside.

 

[Duckjake]

Neither of us said an OLBs coverage skills were all that mattered, we just said it was an important aspect.

The OLB has to be able to both rush the passer and drop. Dansby was not as skilled a rusher as he was in coverage and his range made him valuable in the middle. Martez Wilson isn't even drafted yet, but some folks are actually considering him a better prospect at 3-4 OLB than inside.

Dansby had 8 sacks in 2006. I'd say he was ok as a pass rusher. What I'm getting at is if you want your OLB in a 3-4 to be quick as a pass rusher and be able to play your zone defense and size isn't that important, why aren't you going with guys like KD. Martez Wilson I included only because I see him as the same type player as Dansby.

 

[Buckybird]

Coverage skills for a 3-4 LB are overrated.

I agree.

IMO an NFL defense is probably on the field an average of 60 plays a game & I bet the Steelers don't ask Woodley or Harrison to be in coverage more than 5 to 9 times a game, the rest of the time both guys are coming after your QB.

 

[Twist18]

I still think they should drop down and pick up Justin Houston as he is the "Steeler" mold of OLB and has experience as an OLB in the 3-4.

 

[football karma]

It's funny

Most of us spend the year dismissing "work out warriors" and the foolish devotion to measurables in evaluating players.

Yet at combine time, a fast forty throws that all out the window.

I am no different. I watched a TE I had never heard of before run a 4.55 40 at 6-4, 256 lbs and my first reaction was "I want the Cards to draft that guy".

Quinn was highly ranked prior to the combine, even having sat out a year, so this isn't a case of Mike Mamula who went from the 4th round to the first.

That being said, Quinn being an athletic freak isn't exactly breaking news. The questions are about his time off and fundamentals.