Moneyball and new Uniforms?

Folster

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This is from the ask the front office questions on Suns.com. I picked out the highlights. You can read the rest here. http://www.nba.com/suns/news/front-office-answers

What is the strategy over the next 2-3 years to get the Suns back to the Western Conference Finals?
– T.L.
Babby: This is a very good question and one that many of our fans asked. Our team has a legacy of success as evidenced by our status as the fourth-winningest franchise in the NBA. In the past 15 years, 25 NBA teams have gone three or more consecutive years without a playoff bid. The Phoenix Suns are one of only five teams who have not. That said, we are in a transition.
Our goal is to return the team to elite status, that is, to be legitimate championship contenders year in and year out. No excuses. Steps to achieve this goal began last season when basketball operations upgraded the scouting department and implemented an analytics-based player evaluation system ensuring every player we sign excels in playing ability, character and fit with the team. Rookie Markieff Morris was drafted as a result of his high assessment through this process. Balance is also important: youth must balance experience; offense must be in balance with defense.
Moving into the offseason, we have the available cap room and support from ownership to go after impact players. This flexibility provides us with exciting opportunities and we are going to aim high, yet discipline in making sound and smart personnel decisions is crucial. We will protect our draft picks and also consider free agency, as we assemble an elite team.

Will we see some new uniform designs or alternates (e.g. black alternate) next season?
– A.H.
Casper: In the fall we will be making a special announcement about a uniform promotion that highlights the Suns’ rich legacy. Stay tuned for more information in the coming months.
I probably missed it, but this is the first I've heard of the Suns analytics-based scouting system.

I wonder if Casper is eluding to new unis that will be unvailing. I'll keep my fingers crossed. It sounds like some sort of throwback jersey, which is cool, but we need new unis bad.
 

CardsFan88

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Great our scouting department will be relying on idiocy to pick better players. Brilliant.

I'm not saying it can't be a tool, but sadly most will use it as gospel and overlook the reality of a player and draft based on whatever grade the subjective system spits out.

In the hands of idiots, such disassociation from reality built into decisions will lead to poorer outcomes.

I have no clue how much they now 'follow' it, but seeing how they mentioned it as one of the big reasons to achieve the winning championships goal, indicates they are fooled by the idiocy and will misuse it.

Hey SUNS people, you do realize that these analytics are guesses, right? You do realize that much falls through the cracks, right? Players 'that aren't a fit'...what about that they CAN fit, just didn't do that in college or whatever.

Not much better than a magic 8 ball. Good for a second opinion, a career and world killer for the 'believers'.

If anyone brings up this crap and doesn't denounce it before mentioning such analytics limited insight capability (as another opinion), believes too much in it.

Which in practice, is pretty much everyone that uses it.


As for the uni's. Not surprising, makes sense because of the 45th anny. Wow it's been almost 20 years since the suns changed their unis in 92-93 for the 25th anny. Let's hope they don't use analytics to determine the uni or it's gonna suck :)
 

asudevil83

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Great our scouting department will be relying on idiocy to pick better players. Brilliant.

I'm not saying it can't be a tool, but sadly most will use it as gospel and overlook the reality of a player and draft based on whatever grade the subjective system spits out.

In the hands of idiots, such disassociation from reality built into decisions will lead to poorer outcomes.

I have no clue how much they now 'follow' it, but seeing how they mentioned it as one of the big reasons to achieve the winning championships goal, indicates they are fooled by the idiocy and will misuse it.

Hey SUNS people, you do realize that these analytics are guesses, right? You do realize that much falls through the cracks, right? Players 'that aren't a fit'...what about that they CAN fit, just didn't do that in college or whatever.

Not much better than a magic 8 ball. Good for a second opinion, a career and world killer for the 'believers'.

If anyone brings up this crap and doesn't denounce it before mentioning such analytics limited insight capability (as another opinion), believes too much in it.

Which in practice, is pretty much everyone that uses it.


As for the uni's. Not surprising, makes sense because of the 45th anny. Wow it's been almost 20 years since the suns changed their unis in 92-93 for the 25th anny. Let's hope they don't use analytics to determine the uni or it's gonna suck :)

you made me feel old :sad:

and i'm still pretty young

but i will say though that anything different than we've done in the past cant yield much worse results than we've had in the past decade.

we've kept the guys who we though would be good, and have traded away pretty much every guy we thought wouldnt pan out.
 
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CardsFan88

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you made me feel old :sad:

and i'm still pretty young

but i will say though that anything different than we've done in the past cant yield much worse results than we've had in the past decade.

we've kept the guys who we though would be good, and have traded away pretty much every guy we thought wouldnt pan out.

Well what we did was more based on money than talent. But every Suns fan know the legend of $arver.

Most 1st round picks in the 2000-2007 or so timeframe, fewest actually drafted for the decade.

The good talent evaluators don't need this analytic crap, yet it's not completely worthless. Just almost. But when such things are introduced, they tend to become the 'reason' something happens. Especially over time.

Imagine if we picked political candidates this way, we wouldn't even need to go vote, the decision could be made for us based on what political party you were, how true they are to it, and how many billionaires are funding their campaign. Add up the potential voters with a statistical model based on how many would vote and tally it up.

Rules change, players style change, height and weight change. Who keeps the fake variables in tune? (hint: it's untunable) So you really have a metric that is not consistent. Not everything will be included, so on and so forth.

There will always be bad picks, freak injuries, etc. But basing it on a human mind will give you a real answer rather than a checklist with attributable points or whatnot that does not.

I hate to use a percentage to describe it, but such analytics should be given a 1 percent weighting type thing. Basically nothing, but still there just in case something pops up.

We can choose to believe it and it will either work or not. Not because you picked who it said to pick, but just by happenstance. It is grounded in real people, so no matter what, however it is set up, some people will work out and some don't.

It doesn't really tell you anything you can't figure out on your own.

Now it might bring up something you hadn't thought of, but other than that it is basically useless.

It's like me saying that my goal is to win the lottery and I put some pieces of paper on the ground and get my dog to lick them. Whatever first 6 numbers I take off his tongue is going to be the winner.

Then someone comes to you and tells is their plan to really turn their life around.

I'd be like WTF.

But basically the Suns are admitting it. The only thing we don't know is HOW much they've jumped the shark on this one. Just a little, or all the way. Also, where it starts now is one place, what about a few years from now? At some point the people that take over for those that put this in place, will forget how to use this analytic nothing, and make their decisions (with no insight why) based on these useless metrics. Why? Because that's what they were taught. It gives you supposedly the answer. Don't know how, why, or anything else. Just this is the way they were taught to find the answer.

Any of these crackpot examples of doing things I laid out is equal to the science of these analytics.

I've basically described so much in rl that goes on in gov'ts, corporations, education, so on and so forth. Now we get the Suns lauding their new technique. More like useless plan.

I'll applaud them for TRYING, but then again how much would you applaud a guy for initiative about their headache if their plan to get rid of it by using a hammer to their head?

Only a human being can judge something. Nothing else is actually capable of it. But decisions are outsourced to this crap, and if the Suns haven't completely outsourced decisions based on this crap, there is a real risk of it happening over time, just like it does pretty much everywhere else.

It just baffles me how the processes of our world have degenerated into idiocy like this, where it is failing every chance it can, and yet the reliance on it just keeps growing...and they laud it as a step forward. Or even laud it as a valid alternative. Give it a chance, fair and balanced. Well no, there aren't always two valid sides. This is one of those times. Only human beings can judge talent.

Another way to look at it is this is the sort of crap that creates the conditions for Idiocracy. Because it's got what plants crave, yeah the analytic process has got electrolytes. But analytics got electrolytes. Do you even know what electrolytes are? It's what analytics says we should do...so on and so forth. We're already there.

But onto the other thing yeah it made me feel pretty old, I was only a freshman in hs that year.
 
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Bufalay

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As for the uni's. Not surprising, makes sense because of the 45th anny. Wow it's been almost 20 years since the suns changed their unis in 92-93 for the 25th anny. Let's hope they don't use analytics to determine the uni or it's gonna suck :)

They changed uniforms around 2000.
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slinslin

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The grey in our unis and the broad stripe are so freaking ugly. I would have bought at least a couple jerseys but they are just too ugly to wear outside especially the purple ones.

The orange idea was good but combine it with white and black not grey and purple.
 
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Folster

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I mocked these up a few years ago based off of the Lakers jersey style. I prefer a clean and classic cut and style.

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Mainstreet

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Babby did say the Suns upgraded the scouting department. I agree the analytics-based player evaluation system should only be used as guideline. Scouting in many ways is an art. I wonder how Amare would have rated?
 

leclerc

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Bring back the pre-Barkley western font unis. They rule.

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chickenhead

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Bring back the pre-Barkley western font unis. They rule.

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Yes. I think it would a smart move for a regime that fas been squandering the legacy of the franchise.
 

Cheesebeef

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Bring back the pre-Barkley western font unis. They rule.

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agreed. these uni's are classic.

our uni's now look like WNBA uniforms.
 

DiamondBacks5117

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the Barkley and Kj unis are awesome! I am not a big fan of the jerseys they wear now. I also liked the old court with the sun with the basketball like on barkleys jersey.
 

HooverDam

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Bring back the pre-Barkley western font unis. They rule.

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Agreed 100%. The "Western" font and setting sun on the shorts really say "Arizona", they were awesome. Classic, sleek, simple but very much represented the area.

Bring those back with longer shorts and maybe the new-ish PHX bird logo on the back above the name plate and I'd be thrilled (of course you'd have to change the font of the PHX on the bird logo to the Western font).
 

Superbone

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Agreed 100%. The "Western" font and setting sun on the shorts really say "Arizona", they were awesome. Classic, sleek, simple but very much represented the area.

Bring those back with longer shorts and maybe the new-ish PHX bird logo on the back above the name plate and I'd be thrilled (of course you'd have to change the font of the PHX on the bird logo to the Western font).

Actually, the Sun is rising. :)
 
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Apparently the hints at new uniforms are just a plan to wear a throwback for a handful of games next year. Coro is reporting them to be the black alternates of the Barkley era. I don't care for the busy bursting Suns uni's, but it will be neat to see them out there. Too bad they're not wearing the pre-Barkley western-font jerseys. Those were sharp.

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When the heck are we going to put to bed the tired uniforms that the Suns are currently wearing? Supposedly new ones have been in the works for some time. You'd think a fresh look would be in order to accompany an overhaul of the roster.
 

95pro

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i could care less about the jerseys. i've been a suns fan and have liked them all. quit being a bunch of ishes
 

Gaddabout

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Some of you are really overreacting to the analytic stuff. It's just two additional members of the staff, and they still have to justify their choices like any other scout. It's something "in addition to" rather than selling out to it, like baseball.

The Suns hired Dr. Steve Ilardi. He used to consult for Kansas basketball. He's actually a clinical psychologist that specializes in lifestyle treatment, but he has a well-regarded history with statistical and behavioral analysis. He has an assistant, John Ezekowitz. John is a Harvard student and statistical analysis fanatic. You can learn more about him at his blog: http://harvardsportsanalysis.wordpress.com/

Neither of these guys have a final say on anything. They're job is to use their expertise to make arguments for or against players. They are on par with any of the scouts in the room. It's a fair process that allows Babby to make tough decisions when the basketball scouts disagree. It also provides help when a scout has nothing but glowing praise for a player.
 

jlove

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Yes, the "hint" of new promotional uniform is the black one from the Barkley era during THIS season Only. As far as a brand new uniform for the Suns, it's been reported that the Suns will have a complete NEW look in the '13-'14 season. I'm hoping it will be next season rather than having to wait another 2 years though. Another hope is them resembling these rather than anything else (Especially the black ones....HOT!!!)

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elindholm

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I think the jersey of every Suns player should say "Project" on the back. Tell it like it is.
 

HooverDam

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Yikes, those are awful. The white isn't so bad, but the purple on purple is horrible and black is so over done and lame.

Go back to the old school ones. Western font and the setting sun on the shorts, its something that looks timeless and actually represents Phoenix and AZ. All they have to do is lengthen the shorts and add the Phoenix bird logo above the name plate on the back of the neck.
 

Rab

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Yikes, those are awful. The white isn't so bad, but the purple on purple is horrible and black is so over done and lame.

Go back to the old school ones. Western font and the setting sun on the shorts, its something that looks timeless and actually represents Phoenix and AZ. All they have to do is lengthen the shorts and add the Phoenix bird logo above the name plate on the back of the neck.
Totally agreed here. With a little modern updating, those jersey's would be awesome. I haven't really liked a Suns jersey since then, so I'm not overly thrilled with the black alternates from the Barkley era, but oh well. I guess it's something different.
 

Joe Mama

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Totally agreed here. With a little modern updating, those jersey's would be awesome. I haven't really liked a Suns jersey since then, so I'm not overly thrilled with the black alternates from the Barkley era, but oh well. I guess it's something different.


agreed. I like the old English not really a big fan of the 92-93 jersey change.

Joe
 

devilalum

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Uniform threads are like #$%&.....

Nothing but mental masturbation. Its not like you can site stats to make an argument. It's pure subjectivity. Whatever design you chose will meet with equal numbers of yeahs and nays.
 

Phrazbit

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Really dont like those project 34 jerseys. Forgettable, bland and look like something Nike pumps out to 150 different college teams.

If they are gunna change our look I agree with some others, go back to the 70s look with a couple more modern touches.
 
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