More on Camby

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
None of this addresses the core question:

None of what? I thought I addressed it pretty clearly.

Come to think of it, George O'Brien, do you have me on Ignore? Because very often it seems that you aren't reading my posts. Unless you tell me otherwise I think I will assume that you are ignoring me. Which is okay -- I don't take it personally, it just makes "discussion" awkward.

I'm sorry you are feeling ignored. I have so many people beating up on me, I guess I didn't realize you needed a lot of special attention.

hcsilla doesn't agree with me either, but he gave me the kind of answer I was looking for. I admit, I ignore evasions. I do not remember you saying exactly what you would offer to get rid of the necessary salary. Is it really that hard to repeat yourself? if somehow I missed your explicit statement of which draft pick you would include and which you would refuse to include, why not just say? Is it that much harder to do than to get uptight and claim I am ignoring you?

 

[Errntknght]

"Oh, there is definitely a few of us--but it appears there aren't many of us--or at least, those of us with a certain amount of passion for the possibilities... "

I think all you guys simply have the hots for Kobe and are putting on window dressing. Sheesh, we have a half a season to go and really haven't seen this team with all the principal players healthy. There is a lot that needs to learned about this group before we start fixing it up. We could definitely use a center but it's a bit fuzzy right now as to whether he should be a high post or low post player. We probably need a backup PF but it's not out of the question that Zarko could fill that role well enough. Right now I'm leaning toward 'not' on that question but the last half may give us a definitive answer. Heck, JJ could play so well that by years end no one would admit they ever thought we should pursue Kobe.

Right now I think Jahidi is a keeper - for backup center. Maybe his salary gets adjusted downward but I hope he improves a bit yet and shows he's worth what he's getting. In shape I'm sure he could handle 20 minutes per game at his current level of productivity.

Eisley is coming around and he may well prove he's a tradeable commodity - assuming that we get Vujanic to come over so we have good reason to trade Howard.

 

[cly2tw]

The business NBA is risky. If Kobe gets injured, or Amare becomes injury prone or never be a superstar, or anybody else you sign might get injured, then bad luck. But signing Kobe is the best bet, while trading Marion for cap space the second best bet. Signing Camby is not remotely important for this franchise.

 

[elindholm]

I'm sorry you are feeling ignored. I have so many people beating up on me, I guess I didn't realize you needed a lot of special attention.... Is it that much harder to do than to get uptight and claim I am ignoring you?

My tone was not uptight. I was just for information. It's like a phone conversation, when you go on for a while, and gradually you realize that the other person isn't saying anything. So you say, "Hello, are you there?" to make sure that you aren't just talking into thin air. That's all.

And people who disagree with you aren't "beating up on" you.

Hcsilla gave an answer under duress after saying that a precise answer couldn't be had. It all depends on how much cap space you're talking about, what other players are out there, how the draft looks, and several other factors.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Errntknght
"Oh, there is definitely a few of us--but it appears there aren't many of us--or at least, those of us with a certain amount of passion for the possibilities... "

I think all you guys simply have the hots for Kobe and are putting on window dressing. Sheesh, we have a half a season to go and really haven't seen this team with all the principal players healthy. There is a lot that needs to learned about this group before we start fixing it up. We could definitely use a center but it's a bit fuzzy right now as to whether he should be a high post or low post player. We probably need a backup PF but it's not out of the question that Zarko could fill that role well enough. Right now I'm leaning toward 'not' on that question but the last half may give us a definitive answer. Heck, JJ could play so well that by years end no one would admit they ever thought we should pursue Kobe.

No. The point is, IF Kobe is there at the end of the season, and he is "available", many of us are in the camp that we must go after him--because of the kind of player he is.

Sure, like you say, there is a lot of season left, and our opinions might change.

But whether JJ is playing well or not, the current Phoenix Suns WITH Kobe Bryant is closer to a championship than without him. Period.

That's all we're saying. Now, it's your opinion that it's all "window dressing", which means you think it's illogical, I think. But come on. This is Kobe Bryant we're talking about. Outside of his legal problems (which may be an issue as well--we don't know), the guy still is a top 5 player in the NBA.

I'm just not satisified with first round and out for the rest of my life with this team. I'd think you of all people wouldn't be either.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Chaplin
No. The point is, IF Kobe is there at the end of the season, and he is "available", many of us are in the camp that we must go after him--because of the kind of player he is.

Sure, like you say, there is a lot of season left, and our opinions might change.

But whether JJ is playing well or not, the current Phoenix Suns WITH Kobe Bryant is closer to a championship than without him. Period.

That's all we're saying. Now, it's your opinion that it's all "window dressing", which means you think it's illogical, I think. But come on. This is Kobe Bryant we're talking about. Outside of his legal problems (which may be an issue as well--we don't know), the guy still is a top 5 player in the NBA.

I'm just not satisified with first round and out for the rest of my life with this team. I'd think you of all people wouldn't be either.

The problem is that the Suns have to figure out to clear the cap space BEFORE they know if Kobe would even be available. If the plan to move Eisley, then it's an easy decision. He has two years left on his contract and Vujanic is likely to be the Suns backup PG next season anyway.

But to give up a 2004 draft pick to move White without any assurance that the space would even be used seems to me a horribly risky and expensive move. Yet that is what "everything we can" could mean.

For me, the irony is that most of the arguments I've heard suggest that if the space IS available, it's Kobe or nothing. No one likes the alternatives if Kobe does not come out. So it would be nothing in exchange for a useful backup center and a first round pick.

 

[F-Dog]

Originally posted by Errntknght
I think all you guys simply have the hots for Kobe and are putting on window dressing.

ROTFLMAO!

Imagine the heartbreak around here if Kobe decides to go somewhere else...

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by F-Dog
ROTFLMAO!

Imagine the heartbreak around here if Kobe decides to go somewhere else...

Give me a freaking break. Personally, I am all for signing Kobe. But realistically, I'm like Joe, I don't think he'll even opt out this summer.

So all this negativity from you anti-Kobe people is certainly not warrented.

Heartbreak if Kobe goes somewhere else? Are you kidding?

 

[Errntknght]

Chaplin, "I'm just not satisified with first round and out for the rest of my life with this team. I'd think you of all people wouldn't be either."

You should be able to tell from my posts that I'm only concerned about success is the 'real' season (playoffs). I grew up following Red Auerbach's Celtics teams so that's about what you should expect. It's too bad you're incapable of realizing that we only disagree on the means to the goal not the goal itself... assuming your goal is not merely to escape the first round of the playoffs, which is itself a second rate goal. I know I took a playful jab at you guys but you really were getting nauseating patting each on the back for sharing the one correct opinion. Now here you are trotting out the same thing via a little canard, implying that anyone disagreeing with you is striving for mediocrity. If any of you has a vision of how Kobe and the current players can be woven into a contender you haven't shared it. I'd be delighted see it. Believe it or not I did form the starting five list of JJ, Kobe, Marion, Stoudemire and Voskuhl all by myself and it didn't inspire awe. Very likely Vujanic, Kobe, Marion, Stoudemire and Voskuhl with JJ backing Kobe and Marion is better but that didn't do it for me either.

From a historical and philosophic persepective, the Suns have had great 1-2-3 combos with weak 4-5s many times in the past and came up short every time. Getting Kobe is another venture of this kind, IMO, and not likely to bear better fruit.

I want the Suns to follow a simple minded approach - fix what's broke and leave the rest alone. We need a back up PF and a starting center, so go after them. Don't squander the resources. Cap space is great but it's only useful for acquiring FAs and what we need is not copiously represented on the FA horizon. The resources we have - some cap space, first round picks and tradeble players (Eisley, Casey and one of our two backup centers) are better than cap space alone for acquiring help via trades or drafting. Good 'bigs' are hard to pick up but they do become available from time to time - for once I'd like to see the Suns be ready when it happens. Worst case we'll have to resort to the draft, but the Suns do pretty well with middle picks... we will probably have something like #9 & #15.

 

[Joe Mama]

By tradable players (Howard Eiseley & Casey Jacobsen) do you mean that they would be willing to let them go, or that other teams would actually want them?

BTW, I'm officially off the Kobe Bryant bandwagon for right now. Even without Vujanic or anything free agency could bring I believe this team could hang with the big boys if Amare Stoudemire could just get healthy. I would rather spend the money or use the resources to get frontcourt help.

Joe Mama

 

[PhxGametime]

I'm not a hater but if Kobe is being mentioned - does Rasheed Wallace deserve being mentioned? Not trying to start problems but outside of Technicals - he'd be a decent Center?

Although I like idea of Vlade Divac, 2 first rounds picks, Milos Vujanic, and current players - over trading away farm (picks, Marion, etc) for Kobe - is 2004 Kobe or nothing?

 

[elindholm]

Wallace isn't really a center, so the Suns would have an undersized front court if he were brought in as the "answer." The same is true for Carlos Boozer, for whom the Suns could potentially outbid the Cavaliers this summer.

 

[jbeecham]

Outside of Rasheed's mental and emotional problems on and off the court, I think he would fit in with the Suns perfectly at center. He's tall, quick, has good hands, can rebound, hit shots all over the court, block some shots, etc. I can't get past his attitude and disruptiveness to ever want him on the Suns, but he has the skills.

I would love for the Suns to get Boozer. He doesn't have an outside game, but he's a dirtworker and a decent defensive player and rebounder. He works hard and he's getting better and better. I think he could get lots of easy baskets when Amare gets double teamed and also off of offensive rebounds. Having Boozer and Amare both in the game might clog the lane, but I think they could play pretty well together once they adjust to each other.

 

[scotsman13]

personally, i dont think i am a kobe hater, but i dont feel that he is the answer to the suns problems. and there are a couple of reasons for this.

1. kobes trial wont start until after the season is over. i think that it will be a fairly long trial and no one will be offering him any contract until there is a ruling in the case. so it might august or later before this case is over. this will be mean that if you put your eggs in the basket of hope of getting kobe and then you dont or he is convited then you lose out on some FA that can make a differance to helping us out.

2. if kobe were to come and would want to be the main man who would want the ball in his hands at all times. we have seen a good team "team" that is been hinding behind the suns seen marbury left. i dont want to go back to that type of team with just another player always handling the ball.

3. i dont think that we need a shooting guard as much as we need a better shot blocking center. if you have a good shot you can take a lot more chances on defense looking for steals and playing the passing lines. which would play into the abilities of this team better with marion and barbosa going for steals. this again would really help this team becoming a better fast braking team.


but i will say this if JC goes out and signed kobe then heck i will cheer for the suns just as much as i do this year.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by jbeecham
Outside of Rasheed's mental and emotional problems on and off the court, I think he would fit in with the Suns perfectly at center. He's tall, quick, has good hands, can rebound, hit shots all over the court, block some shots, etc. I can't get past his attitude and disruptiveness to ever want him on the Suns, but he has the skills.

I would love for the Suns to get Boozer. He doesn't have an outside game, but he's a dirtworker and a decent defensive player and rebounder. He works hard and he's getting better and better. I think he could get lots of easy baskets when Amare gets double teamed and also off of offensive rebounds. Having Boozer and Amare both in the game might clog the lane, but I think they could play pretty well together once they adjust to each other.

I love your description. except for the fact that he's an idiot and mental case, Rasheed would be perfect.

Many commentators have said that Sheed is longer willing to the dirty work down low and would rather go outside and shoot threes. I know he always chews the Suns up, but that's because the Suns haven't been able to push him around.

If Boozer were four inches taller he'd be a super star. I love his work ethic and hustle. In 2002 I was pushing for the Suns to take him with the pick they used on Casey. But he cannot shoot over taller defenders and struggles to defence them. Plus is not a shot blocker.