Most underrated Suns player?

[JS22]

Was having a conversation about this with a friend the other day. Thought I'd bring it up since it's kind of dead around here while we wait for the draft.

My vote absolutely goes to my favorite Sun of all-time, Kevin Johnson. I still think he is #1 as far as Suns PG's, ahead of Nash. It's a shame that injuries seemed to haunt him off and on throughout his career. But when he was healthy, KJ was by far one of the best PG's in the entire league.

Closest player that I can think of today would be Westbrook. And IMO Westbrook isn't on KJ's level.

22/11/4 in 1990. That is nuts. But it seems like Johnson is always forgotten when people talk about the top PG's in the game.

 

[Phrazbit]

Think about KJ in today's league with the no-handchecking rules... he would get to the basket at will, assuming his hamstring didnt explode first. I agree with you completely. Had KJ stayed healthy I think his career would have put him among all-time great PGs. Injuries and playing at the same time as Magic and Stockton really damaged his legacy. His 4 season run from 89-92 is one of the most dominant statistical runs ever from a PG.

 

[JS22]

Think about KJ in today's league with the no-handchecking rules... he would get to the basket at will, assuming his hamstring didnt explode first. I agree with you completely. Had KJ stayed healthy I think his career would have put him among all-time great PGs. Injuries and playing at the same time as Magic and Stockton really damaged his legacy. His 4 season run from 89-92 is one of the most dominant statistical runs ever from a PG.

KJ would put up 26/10 in today's NBA.

 

[95pro]

KJ for sure

 

[slinslin]

KJ would put up 26/10 in today's NBA.

Highly doubtful

1. game has gotten slower
2. defenses have gotten better
3. perimeter shooting getting increasingly important although that does not stop Rose, Westbrook or Parker.

26 is really stretching it however.

 

[JS22]

1. Slower? Eh, I don't know about that. The NBA was known for it's slow down, defensive play in the late 80's & early 90's.

2. See above statement. Defensive players got away with a LOT more back then.

3. And I don't think it would stop KJ either. I remember defenses hand-checking him constantly and he still blew by them. He wouldn't have that issue today. And he was pretty money with his drive & spot up around the FT line shot.

In his prime he was putting up 20/10. (22/11 in 89-90.) Without defenders being able to drape over him he'd easily get a few more buckets a game. So 26/10 is definitely possible.

 

[slinslin]

1. Slower? Eh, I don't know about that. The NBA was known for it's slow down, defensive play in the late 80's & early 90's.

That is just false whatever you want to believe but it is just flat out wrong.

 

[Chaplin]

That is just false whatever you want to believe but it is just flat out wrong.

Where is your proof? Or is this a slinslin assumption everyone should take as gospel?

 

[slinslin]

Where is your proof? Or is this a slinslin assumption everyone should take as gospel?

Proof? There is this little neat statistic called "pace". I didn't think I needed to post any proof here because saying that the league is playing at a lot slower pace now is like saying Kobe Bryant is a 20+ppg scorer in his career.

Suns 1988-1989
Pace: 104.5 (3rd of 25)
PTS/G: 118.6 (1st of 25) ▪ Opp PTS/G: 110.9 (16th of 25)

Suns 2009-2010
Pace: 95.3 (4th of 30)
PTS/G: 110.2 (1st of 30) ▪ Opp PTS/G: 105.3 (26th of 30)

Only close to 10 point differential in pace, you may look up the league averages yourself.

So yeah just by that metric alone it is much more likely that KJ's number would decrease not increase.

Example
1988-1989 Kevin Johnson put up 20.4ppg 12.2apg in 39.2mpg at a pace of 104.5
2009-2010 Steve Nash put up 16.5ppg 11.0apg in 32.8mpg at a pace of 95.3

First adjust this to 36mpg
KJ 18.7ppg 11.2apg
Nash 18.0ppg 12.1apg

Now adjust to 100 posessions
KJ 17.8ppg 10.7apg
Nash 18.8ppg 12.7apg

 

[Chaplin]

Proof? There is this little neat statistic called "pace". I didn't think I needed to post any proof here because saying that the league is playing at a lot slower pace now is like saying Kobe Bryant is a 20+ppg scorer in his career.

Suns 1988-1989
Pace: 104.5 (3rd of 25)
PTS/G: 118.6 (1st of 25) ▪ Opp PTS/G: 110.9 (16th of 25)

Suns 2009-2010
Pace: 95.3 (4th of 30)
PTS/G: 110.2 (1st of 30) ▪ Opp PTS/G: 105.3 (26th of 30)

Only close to 10 point differential in pace, you may look up the league averages yourself.

So yeah just by that metric alone it is much more likely that KJ's number would decrease not increase.

Example
1988-1989 Kevin Johnson put up 20.4ppg 12.2apg in 39.2mpg at a pace of 104.5
2009-2010 Steve Nash put up 16.5ppg 11.0apg in 32.8mpg at a pace of 95.3

First adjust this to 36mpg
KJ 18.7ppg 11.2apg
Nash 18.0ppg 12.1apg

Now adjust to 100 posessions
KJ 17.8ppg 10.7apg
Nash 18.8ppg 12.7apg

Interesting, but among the time frame we are discussing, keep in mind who won the title for a few years and what style they played in. They won games playing a slower pace and a championship, how to you quantify that?

 

[slinslin]

The Pistons played at about the same pace as the Run and Gun Suns.

95.5 (slowest in the entire league) in 1989
94.4 (2nd slowest in the entire league) in 1990

Let that sink, in 1989 the slowest team in the league the Detroit Pistons played at a faster pace still than the 2010 Suns under Nash.

 

[leclerc]

I knew the nomination of the 50 best players of all time, that didn't include KJ, was not to be taken seriously. He's been overlooked and I think he's one of the great PG's no doubt. He had 3 years with 20 and 10, and another two with 22 and 9.8 and 19.8 and 11 or something, and based on that alone puts him in some pretty elite company. He also had great shooting percentages and the Suns won 50 games each season easy, with him as a centre piece.

KJ rules.

 

[slinslin]

from a dedicated thread on realgm that included analysis and then voting, i don't agree with all (eg. Wade and Frazier over Nash) but I think KJ is rated around where he should be. I guess I'd rate him higher than Mourning at least.

RealGM Top 100 List

Postby Baller 24 on Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:17 pm
RealGM's 100 Greatest
1) Michael Jordan
2) Bill Russell
3) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4) Magic Johnson
5) Wilt Chamberlain
6) Larry Bird
7) Shaquille O'Neal
8) Tim Duncan
9) Hakeem Olajuwon
10) Kobe Bryant
11) Julius Erving
12) Karl Malone
13) Kevin Garnett
14) Oscar Robertson
15) Jerry West
16) Moses Malone
17) Dirk Nowitzki
18) LeBron James
19) Bob Pettit
20) Charles Barkley
21) David Robinson
22) Dwyane Wade
23) Walt Frazier
24) Steve Nash
25) Scottie Pippen
26) Elgin Baylor
27) Patrick Ewing
28) John Havlicek
29) Isiah Thomas
30) Rick Barry
31) John Stockton
32) Gary Payton
33) Clyde Drexler
34) Artis Gilmore
35) George Gervin
36) Jason Kidd
37) Tracy McGrady
38) Paul Pierce
39) Dwight Howard
40) Kevin McHale
41) Dominique Wilkins
42) Reggie Miller
43) Willis Reed
44) Bob Cousy
45) Dave Cowens
46) Allen Iverson
47) Bill Walton
48) Alonzo Mourning
49) Elvin Hayes
50) Chris Paul
51) Kevin Johnson
52) Bob McAdoo
53) Sidney Moncrief
54) Ray Allen
55) Bob Lanier
56) Alex English
57) Wes Unseld
58) Paul Arizin
59) Sam Jones
60) Manu Ginobili

 

[JS22]

I guess you may be right Slin. Though I think the level of offensive talent in the early 90's was a lot better than today.

 

[JCSunsfan]

There were varying styles of play then. But still KJ was underrated. He was absolutely mauled every time he drove to the hoop. He was handchecked without mercy on the perimeter. KJ would absolutely dominate today. If he were playing at this moment and playing in his prime, he would be the best pg in the league easily.

 

[elindholm]

There were varying styles of play then. But still KJ was underrated. He was absolutely mauled every time he drove to the hoop. He was handchecked without mercy on the perimeter. KJ would absolutely dominate today. If he were playing at this moment and playing in his prime, he would be the best pg in the league easily.

What makes you think he'd get any more calls today? Suns fans complained constantly that Johnson didn't get the calls he deserved, and that was when the Suns were a marquee franchise.

 

[slinslin]

What makes you think he'd get any more calls today? Suns fans complained constantly that Johnson didn't get the calls he deserved, and that was when the Suns were a marquee franchise.

Insert Rose for Johnson and Bulls for Suns and there you go.

You could probably do it for more guards.

I also love that hand-checking card that is being played all the time to overrate oldschool players to no end, barely relevant imo.
Then there are lots of other changes in the current NBA to back then that nobody knows how it would effect KJ.

1. There is a lot more quality depth at the center position than in the 80s/90s. Luc Longley and Greg Ostertag were probably regarded as top 10 centers at least at some point in their careers. Now a player like Gortat that is clearly much better is barely average.

2. Rule changes, zone defenses, extended 3pt line etc

3. Increasing athletic ability in the league.

4. Slower pace, tougher defenses. eg Indiana posted a defensive rating of 99.8 this season, the bad boy pistons during their first championship posted a defensive rating of 104.7. That's a big difference.

Not only is the game slower today, the defenses are better. Handchecking or not, scoring is harder.

 

[Cheesebeef]

1. There is a lot more quality depth at the center position than in the 80s/90s. Luc Longley and Greg Ostertag were probably regarded as top 10 centers at least at some point in their careers. Now a player like Gortat that is clearly much better is barely average.

holy cow...this just proves once again, you really never watched a SECOND of 80's/early to mid 90's basketball.

Robinson, Ewing, Olajuwon, Eaton, Kareem, Perkins, Brad Daughtery, Dikembe, Parrish, Laimbeer... hell...even, Duckworth all pretty much played together during that era with even Mourning and Shaq coming in 1992. Longley and Ostertag languished in the same area as someone like Mark West. More quality center depth in the 80's/90's? The league was not only FLUSH with Centers back then, but the league is absolutely bereft of them now. I mean...who is this depth you speak of? hell...who is even the top of the crop you speak of?

 

[slinslin]

holy cow...this just proves once again, you really never watched a SECOND of 80's/early to mid 90's basketball.

Robinson, Ewing, Olajuwon, Eaton, Kareem, Perkins, Brad Daughtery, Dikembe, Parrish, Laimbeer... hell...even, Duckworth all pretty much played together during that era with even Mourning and Shaq coming in 1992. Longley and Ostertag languished in the same area as someone like Mark West. More quality center depth in the 80's/90's? The league was not only FLUSH with Centers back then, but the league is absolutely bereft of them now. I mean...who is this depth you speak of? hell...who is even the top of the crop you speak of?

Eaton in 89/90 the year we talked about 5ppg 7rpg 10.6PER
Kareem was not even in the league anymore
Mutombo drafted in 1991
Robinson was in his rookie season
Daugherty 16 PER
Laimbeer 15.8PER
Perkins 17.3PER and played SF for Dallas, he only became a Center very late in his career for Seattle

The myth of the great center era is way overstated, there were more distinct stars at the very top but the depth of quality starting centers has way improved in the NBA in the last 5 or so years. Also worth mentioning that players like Duncan and Garnett can easily be classified as centers the way the play defenssively for their teams and in that case I take Duncan and Garnett over eg Hakeem and Robinson everytime (Duncan > Hakeem, Garnett > Robinson).

And the reason why probably other than Howard nobody really stands out as a star at the center position anymore is because offensively the game evolved away from dumping it into a center. Increasing value of the 3pt shot, 3 second rules etc

 

[JCSunsfan]

Eaton in 89/90 the year we talked about 5ppg 7rpg 10.6PER
Kareem was not even in the league anymore
Mutombo drafted in 1991
Robinson was in his rookie season
Daugherty 16 PER
Laimbeer 15.8PER
Perkins 17.3PER and played SF for Dallas, he only became a Center very late in his career for Seattle

The myth of the great center era is way overstated, there were more distinct stars at the very top but the depth of quality starting centers has way improved in the NBA in the last 5 or so years. Also worth mentioning that players like Duncan and Garnett can easily be classified as centers the way the play defenssively for their teams and in that case I take Duncan and Garnett over eg Hakeem and Robinson everytime (Duncan > Hakeem, Garnett > Robinson).

And the reason why probably other than Howard nobody really stands out as a star at the center position anymore is because offensively the game evolved away from dumping it into a center. Increasing value of the 3pt shot, 3 second rules etc

Couldn't disagree more. Wow. Garnett over Hakeem or Robinson? Yikes. And Laimbeer would actually be MORE effective today than he was then. He was an absolute menace defensively and made a living at the 3 pt line. I always find it amusing how the conversations starts as 80's and 90's and then you narrow your statistical sample to 89/90 to fit your argument.

Sorry, you've lost touch with reality here.

 

[SirStefan32]

Eaton in 89/90 the year we talked about 5ppg 7rpg 10.6PER
Kareem was not even in the league anymore
Mutombo drafted in 1991
Robinson was in his rookie season
Daugherty 16 PER
Laimbeer 15.8PER
Perkins 17.3PER and played SF for Dallas, he only became a Center very late in his career for Seattle

The myth of the great center era is way overstated, there were more distinct stars at the very top but the depth of quality starting centers has way improved in the NBA in the last 5 or so years. Also worth mentioning that players like Duncan and Garnett can easily be classified as centers the way the play defenssively for their teams and in that case I take Duncan and Garnett over eg Hakeem and Robinson everytime (Duncan > Hakeem, Garnett > Robinson).

And the reason why probably other than Howard nobody really stands out as a star at the center position anymore is because offensively the game evolved away from dumping it into a center. Increasing value of the 3pt shot, 3 second rules etc

Over the past 10+ years, I've seen some ridiculous stuff posted on this board, but this one ranks near the top of the list.

 

[Suns_fan69]

Eaton in 89/90 the year we talked about 5ppg 7rpg 10.6PER
Kareem was not even in the league anymore
Mutombo drafted in 1991
Robinson was in his rookie season
Daugherty 16 PER
Laimbeer 15.8PER
Perkins 17.3PER and played SF for Dallas, he only became a Center very late in his career for Seattle

You discount Mutombo because he was drafted in 1991, but guess what, so was Longley. Ostertag wasn't drafted till 94.

If you're looking for contemporaries during the time when Longley & Ostertag were what you consider Top 10, that list would more likely be:
Shaq
Hakeem
Duncan
David Robinson
Alonzo Mourning
Patrick Ewing
Rik Smits

 

[elindholm]

It's very difficult to compare the depth of the center position between eras, because of the difficulty of deciding who is or is not (or was or was not) a center. PF is the prestige position now, so you have players like Duncan, Aldridge, Randolph, Jefferson, Nowitzki, Bosh, Stoudemire, J. O'Neal, etc. calling themselves PF when they could easily have been considered centers in the 80s or 90s. (How is Laimbeer more of a center than Nowitzki? Daugherty more than Aldridge? Duckworth more than Randolph?)

At least decide which players you're putting in which categories -- and why -- before arguing about which era was deeper.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Couldn't disagree more. Wow. Garnett over Hakeem or Robinson? Yikes. And Laimbeer would actually be MORE effective today than he was then. He was an absolute menace defensively and made a living at the 3 pt line. I always find it amusing how the conversations starts as 80's and 90's and then you narrow your statistical sample to 89/90 to fit your argument.

Sorry, you've lost touch with reality here.

It's hard to hit a moving target and nobody moves a target better than slinslin.

Steve

 

[Cheesebeef]

Eaton in 89/90 the year we talked about 5ppg 7rpg 10.6PER

in 1989, Eaton was the DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR.

And...love how you limited the discussion all of a sudden to "the YEAR we talked about", when YOU framed the discussion with THIS QUOTE:

"There is a lot more quality depth at the center position than in the 80s/90s."

Pretty much stopped reading after that because I know the rest was going to be drivel based purely on you a) changing the discussion to make your point b) having never watched most of these guys play c) statistics of a very few guys without showing statistics of the Cs who play now who are apparently better and d) lunacy.