Most underrated Suns player?

[Cheesebeef]

It's very difficult to compare the depth of the center position between eras, because of the difficulty of deciding who is or is not (or was or was not) a center. PF is the prestige position now, so you have players like Duncan, Aldridge, Randolph, Jefferson, Nowitzki, Bosh, Stoudemire, J. O'Neal, etc. calling themselves PF when they could easily have been considered centers in the 80s or 90s. (How is Laimbeer more of a center than Nowitzki?

Really on Dirk versus Laimbeer? Laimbeer actually could body up large centers, played tough D and from 1981-1991, averaged 11 rebounds per game, compared to Dirk who never guarded Cs and averaged 10 boards per game in a single season.

As to Duncan, Aldridge, Randolph and Jefferson...I've got no problem with those guys being listed as Cs in the last five years which Slin is referring to...but Bosh and Amare? Maybe Bosh, but Amare is a 6'9 PF who's never rebounded 10 boards in a season...and Jermaine O'Neal's been washed for 5 years.

 

[elindholm]

Really on Dirk versus Laimbeer? Laimbeer actually could body up large centers, played tough D and from 1981-1991, averaged 11 rebounds per game, compared to Dirk who never guarded Cs and averaged 10 boards per game in a single season.

I agree that Laimbeer was better defensively. The point wasn't that they were identical players, but that they are comparable.

Maybe Bosh, but Amare is a 6'9 PF who's never rebounded 10 boards in a season

Stoudemire was an All-NBA center four times, so I guess your standards are higher than those of the experts. I don't think it's a very interesting argument if each side just cherry-picks individual statistics.

and Jermaine O'Neal's been washed for 5 years.

Or eight, or ten. I was using him as a representative of the earlier part of this era, obviously.

If your position is that neither Stoudemire nor O'Neal could have been a top-10 center in the 80s or 90s, then all I can do is disagree.

 

[TJ]

KJ would have entered the discussion of one of the Top 5 PGs to ever lace them up had he not had a rash of injuries throughout his career. Hell, he only played 49 games in the 92-93 season.

Even still, he was a damn good player.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I agree that Laimbeer was better defensively. The point wasn't that they were identical players, but that they are comparable.



Stoudemire was an All-NBA center four times, so I guess your standards are higher than those of the experts. I don't think it's a very interesting argument if each side just cherry-picks individual statistics.



Or eight, or ten. I was using him as a representative of the earlier part of this era, obviously.

If your position is that neither Stoudemire nor O'Neal could have been a top-10 center in the 80s or 90s, then all I can do is disagree.

Eric, SLIN is the one who talked about the last FIVE years. Thus O'Neal has no business being in the conversation about the DEPTH of THIS era.

And I even if Amare could be in the top 10 in the 80's or 90's...which I really don't think anyone would have even DREAMED of playing him there considering how much bigger the league was at that position, that isn't really what we're talking about. We're talking about the depth of Cs in this era, and how Slin said it much deeper now then it was back then.

 

[elindholm]

Eric, SLIN is the one who talked about the last FIVE years. Thus O'Neal has no business being in the conversation about the DEPTH of THIS era.

Okay, I'll admit I wasn't paying that much attention to the details of what slinslin was saying. So sure, leave O'Neal out.

And I even if Amare could be in the top 10 in the 80's or 90's...which I really don't think anyone would have even DREAMED of playing him there considering how much bigger the league was at that position

Yeah, I think the reason the league was bigger at "that position" is because more players called themselves Cs. Here's your (unranked) 80s list from before:

Robinson
Ewing
Olajuwon
Eaton
Abdul-Jabbar
Perkins
Daughtery
Mutombo
Parish
Laimbeer
Duckworth

That's 11 players. Now here are 11 (also unranked) players who are currently healthy (so, no Stoudemire, no J. O'Neal, no Bogut, no Varejao) who can call themselves Cs if they feel like it:

Howard
Duncan
Noah
M. Gasol
Randolph
Cousins
Hibbert
Love
Jefferson
B. Lopez
Chandler

I'm not saying those are the top 11 Cs today; you could argue about whether someone like Bosh or Anthony Davis should be on it. But, the list is close enough.

Do you really think that the 80s list is much deeper than the current one? The 80s list has more HOFers on it, because we've seen their full careers by now. But I don't think the #8-#11 guys on that list (however we'd rank them) are any more impressive than #8-#11 on the current list.

We're talking about the depth of Cs in this era, and how Slin said it much deeper now then it was back then.

I wouldn't say it's "much deeper" now, or probably even "deeper." I'd say they're about the same, but one could analyze if different ways.

 

[Errntknght]

I was just thinking when I first saw this thread I thought it referred to our current players and I couldn't imagine who we had that anyone (but slin, of course) could possibly underrate significantly. Maybe Haddadi or Garrett and them because we don't even bother to rate them at all.

 

[Gaddabout]

I don't care what metric you use, Hakeem was the greatest athlete I've ever seen in my life, and I've seen a lot of them. He would dominate ANY era. Just RIDICULOUS physical gifts for a man his size.

KJ was awesome, and he played in an era where linebacker-style play was allowed. The Pistons, the Rockets, the Knicks, the Blazers and a smattering of others made a living by throwing people to the floor and trying to hurt them. That era is why we have the breakaway rule now. It was playground basketball (no autopsy, no foul). That alone makes it hard to compare to any other era, especially with the Pistons having several psychopaths on their team.

 

[Errntknght]

I don't care what metric you use, Hakeem was the greatest athlete I've ever seen in my life, and I've seen a lot of them. He would dominate ANY era. Just RIDICULOUS physical gifts for a man his size.

I've lived longer and seen greater. I was born a year later then Wilt Chamberlain and I remember him competing in college for the Kansas track team. He was competitive in high jump (at around 6'6"), and the 440 yard dash and won the national title in the shot put. That was what he did for fun during the offseason. He was their top decathalon guy and their coach claimed he'd be world class if he trained for it.
He holds 72 NBA records and they didn't keep track of blocked shots in his era. (Dwight Howard broke one of his records this past season: most FTs attempted in a game with 39 vs the Warriors. Dwight only made 21 so he didn't come close to Wilt's record of 28 made FTs.)
There is a long lasting debate what his vertical leap was, somewhere in the range between 42" and 48". His career average for rebounds is 22+ per game so the guy could certainly get up in the air. His endurance was good, too - one season he missed a total of 8 minutes of playing time averaging 48.5 minutes per game.
When his basketball days were over he became a world class volleyball player and put the game of beach volleyball on the map.

Hakeem was a great athlete and more graceful than Wilt but not quite his match all around.

 

[BC867]

Hakeem was a great athlete and more graceful than Wilt but not quite his match all around.

As a team player, Bill Russell brought more championships. But as far as the greatest individual player, Wilt dominated basketball as no one else. By far! Hakeem was great, but by no means the greatest.

And just as Babe Ruth ** was on something when he came to the ballpark every day -- beer -- and dominated his sport, Chamberlain did it every evening coming to the arena with blue balls. And still rebounded 20+and even scored 100 one night in Hershey PA. Amazing!

Yes, I know the Knicks Center was out and their PF guarded Wilt, but other Centers have been in that position and didn't do what Wilt did.


** For example, when Babe Ruth led the AL in homeruns with 46 in 1924, only one other AL player had more than 19 HR's (27) that year. As you said, Hakeem was a great athlete, but didn't come close to "dominating". Even Kareem Abdul-Jabbar wasn't in Wilt's league when it came to dominating.

 

[Mainstreet]

To me the best NBA player and greatest athlete are two different things.

If I'm a team captain and I'm selecting my first player it would be Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't care what metric you use, Hakeem was the greatest athlete I've ever seen in my life, and I've seen a lot of them. He would dominate ANY era. Just RIDICULOUS physical gifts for a man his size.

KJ was awesome, and he played in an era where linebacker-style play was allowed. The Pistons, the Rockets, the Knicks, the Blazers and a smattering of others made a living by throwing people to the floor and trying to hurt them. That era is why we have the breakaway rule now. It was playground basketball (no autopsy, no foul). That alone makes it hard to compare to any other era, especially with the Pistons having several psychopaths on their team.

I don't even think he was the athlete Jabbar was let alone Wilt.

Steve

 

[3rdside]

Shawn Marion - so underrated he's not even mentioned

 

[Gaddabout]

I wasn't alive to see Wilt or Russell, and Kareem was already old, so Hakeem remains the greatest athlete I've ever seen. And I saw him live, up close, and in person spinning on the baseline like a ballet dancer as other gawky tall guys flailed and twisted trying to guard him.

When Hakeem was on, he was truly the most unguardable basketball player in my lifetime. Jordan would always get his points, but you could make him shoot a lower percentage than he was accustomed to. Hakeem was just impossible, and at times, impenetrable on defense. He anchored a starting five in 1994 that included Vernon Maxwell, Otis Thorpe, Kenny Smith and Robert Horry. Hakeem was the only All-Star on that NBA champion.