My reasoning for the whole QB issue

[conraddobler]

Sorry to start a new thread but hey what's one more amoungst thousands with this theme eh?

Anyhow just wanted to point out that in a couple interviews I've heard towards last year just after Warner retired, talking about getting Bulger was big and someone asked our FO about it or getting someone higher caliber than say DA was and the gist of the answer was we needed to play with what we have.

I think that is really the crux of this, I think we got caught flat footed when Warner retired "I think Urban or Somers mentioned this", I think the FO was more fine with Matt than the coaches are and that's why I think we're in this mess we're in now.

I think our FO felt more confident in Matt than Whiz does and I think he was told to work with him and I think this is his answer to that issue, simply don't play him.

I think that's all this really is, it's a backdoor struggle over a starting spot and how to fill it.

This saga does not inspire confidence in me at all, the only saving grace in it is that I don't hold Matt against Whiz since he didn't draft him, everything else about it IMO is just messed up.

 

[nashman]

It could be as you stated but... Whizs' whole philosophy is the best guy plays right? Its all about competition and the best guy will win the job? Ok so in most peoples opinion who have watched the 2 play now in 3 games Matt has easily had much better numbers all the while not really been put in position to have better numbers. Hmmm to me it seems the choice should be clear but the coach is playing games and pretty much seems like he wants to go with DA regardless of how Matt has beat him in almost every way. Somwthing smells rotten in the whole situation!

 

[conraddobler]

It could be as you stated but... Whizs' whole philosophy is the best guy plays right? Its all about competition and the best guy will win the job? Ok so in most peoples opinion who have watched the 2 play now in 3 games Matt has easily had much better numbers all the while not really been put in position to have better numbers. Hmmm to me it seems the choice should be clear but the coach is playing games and pretty much seems like he wants to go with DA regardless of how Matt has beat him in almost every way. Somwthing smells rotten in the whole situation!

When I say Whiz doesn't like Matt it's not that he hates him, he hates his game, his approach to things, probably would like a bigger arm but most of all I think Whiz just doesn't like a thing about his game.

That's probably NOT personal really although if I was Matt I'd feel like it was but whatever is going on it's a needless happening considering we had so much time to address the issue and trade or cut Matt.

This whole he's the starter, psyche thing when he did NOTHING bad enough to lose that position is just silly.

 

[THESMEL]

Yep thats my fear too. I've seen alot of cardinals players move on to pro bowls and super Bowls over such bafooneery. Boomer Esiason comes to mind after 522 yard NFL game Boomer was benched to avoid contract incentives. Remember that.

on the flip side Plummer was rewarded with the top NFL QB contract as the team was ripped to shreds after the 98 season.

Matt is a much better QB than plummer, These Cards are a much better team than 98 wild cards.

It makes my eyes sore watching this crap, again, as a Cards fan.

I hope Whiz sets Matt down and has the talk, I live or die by you in 2010 and beyond. You have exceeded my expectations and will gain leadership and confidence on the field from this day forward.

 

[conraddobler]

Yep thats my fear too. I've seen alot of cardinals players move on to pro bowls and super Bowls over such bafooneery. Boomer Esiason comes to mind after 522 yard NFL game Boomer was benched to avoid contract incentives. Remember that.

on the flip side Plummer was rewarded with the top NFL QB contract as the team was ripped to shreds after the 98 season.

Matt is a much better QB than plummer, These Cards are a much better team than 98 wild cards.

It makes my eyes sore watching this crap, again, as a Cards fan.

I hope Whiz sets Matt down and has the talk, I live or die by you in 2010 and beyond. You have exceeded my expectations and will gain leadership and confidence on the field from this day forward.

I don't know that you have to go that far, nothing in the NFL is that for sure and Matt hasn't earned undying loyalty from anyone.

My point was that he never got even a remotely fair chance at proving anything on purpose.

What you're describing dosen't happen much in the NFL anymore and I don't know at all Matt's even remotely worthy of that but he deserves some starts IMO, that's not too much to ask.

 

[FJM]

It's not Matt's game it's the chemistry between the two. Whis has said as much.

Do you think for one minute the Mannings , Brees, Rivers, etc. would put up with the crap Matt has thrown at him ?

 

[nashman]

Most of us are not proclaiming Matt to be a top teir QB in this league, but we don't really know how he will play being the man and learning from Warner the last few years. Thats the whole problem we WANT TO KNOW! And it seems as though KW does not want to let that happen for some reason. All I know is in the limited time we have saw him in the preseason he looks like a much better QB than DA who KW seems to be leaning towards for some reason. I just think its a big slap in the face to the fans who have been looking forward to Matt actually given a chance to be the guy. Whiz preached how well he was doing and everything pointed to him actually going to be able to run the team this season, then this whole DA debacle started. I am confused and understandably irritated by the whole situation. If DA is handed the starters role expect and rightfully expect Leinart to demand a trade and get out of here if this is how KW is going to treat players it does not speak well for the future!

 

[THESMEL]

I tuely understand

But that is what Matt needs right now more than breathing. To give us his best effort. I don't want excuses, I don't want manufatured drama.

If matt breaks his left arm off for my entertainment against the Rams, He has several million dollars already paid. And He knows the risks.

but in my perfect world we would have 50% Grimms innovative power zone formations and 50% pass formations.

We would pass 10% of the time from run formations and run 10% of the time from pass formations.

Just like the top passing Saints ran more than 50% of the time. It's old school and it's correct for the 2010 Cardinals and most QB's not named, Brees, Peyton Manning, Dan Fouts or Kurt Warner.

The Saints destroyed us with this fundemental football philosphy already in 2010.

Whiz is allergic to balance after leaving Cower, He tried and gave up, Kurt Warner would have been even better for it, like Edge in the playoffs demonstrated.

We are a lesser team without Matt Leinart, starting or not.

Lets take Q's stuff out of his locker when He's not looking, We'll see how He responds!

I don't know that you have to go that far, nothing in the NFL is that for sure and Matt hasn't earned undying loyalty from anyone.

My point was that he never got even a remotely fair chance at proving anything on purpose.

What you're describing dosen't happen much in the NFL anymore and I don't know at all Matt's even remotely worthy of that but he deserves some starts IMO, that's not too much to ask.

 

[conraddobler]

Well I'm kinda starting to smell a rat here, as in I think this might be an elaborate hoax put together by several parties mostly made possible by Whiz seeing enough in DA to be satisfied.

I think Whiz has convinced everyone that he's good to go with DA and he now has won the power struggle he might of semi lost before and to top all that off the whole Tim Hasselback thing getting involved makes me smell a rat comming out of Seatle trying to stir the pot.

I bet a lot of money that's where Matt ends up and a lot of people had a hand in this debacle.

Just goofy.

 

[az jam]

Nonsense, there is a triumphant that runs this team: Michael Bidwill, Rod Graves, & Ken Whisenhunt. They are all on the same page.They work together on key personnel decisions and let Whisenhunt call the shots on personnel. When they extended his contract it was indicated that he would have more authority in personnel decisions. Michael & Rod support him all the way. Not to say they don't discuss and debate but they try to get him the players he wants and let him make the key decisions on who to keep and who to start.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

It's not Matt's game it's the chemistry between the two. Whis has said as much.

Do you think for one minute the Mannings , Brees, Rivers, etc. would put up with the crap Matt has thrown at him ?

Listen man I love Matt more then just about anybody but are you serious with the bolded?

THOSE GUYS ARE PROVEN WINNERS AT THE NFL LEVEL. It's not even funny that you would bring that up as part of your argument. LOL you think Chris Redman gets the same treatment from Coach as say Tom Brady?? LMAO.

Matt's had opportunities guys. He hasn't maximized him. Plus you keep reading all this about Max Hall and you know what the difference between him and Matt are? Hall is a COMPETITOR. He is FIERY. Guys BELIEVE IN HIM.

Matt is too laconic for Wiz's taste. Thats fine. I wish him luck elsewhere.

But anyone who thinks Matt has earned anything but a pat on the ass and thanks for holding the clipboard is kidding themselves.

Maybe the player and the coach just don't mesh? Wouldn't be the first time thats happened. And maybe he goes on to be in the Pro Bowl. Wouldnt surprise me since I have been prediciting it every year since a week ago.

But the point is he won't work HERE. And Wiz is a thousands times more accomplished and credible then Matt Leinart. Geez what a bunch of bleeding hearts on this board all of a sudden. I have always loved Matt and always been personally vested in him.

But I cheer for the front of the jersey - not the back. Many of you should realize the same.

 

[Duckjake]

What inquiring minds want to know is that if the Cards are planning to go to a more balanced offense with a tough running game why are they running so many 4 wide receiver sets in the preseason?

It's hard to doubt CKW's methods though. Laying low in week 17 vs Green Bay produced a 31-10 lead the next week in a game that actually meant something.

 

[MrYeahBut]

What inquiring minds want to know is that if the Cards are planning to go to a more balanced offense with a tough running game why are they running so many 4 wide receiver sets in the preseason?

Because the running game wasn't working

 

[john h]

Nonsense, there is a triumphant that runs this team: Michael Bidwill, Rod Graves, & Ken Whisenhunt. They are all on the same page.They work together on key personnel decisions and let Whisenhunt call the shots on personnel. When they extended his contract it was indicated that he would have more authority in personnel decisions. Michael & Rod support him all the way. Not to say they don't discuss and debate but they try to get him the players he wants and let him make the key decisions on who to keep and who to start.

Whiz could not fire Matt without approval from the owner and Graves. What ever is going on is with joint approval.

 

[MrYeahBut]

I think that's all this really is, it's a backdoor struggle over a starting spot and how to fill it.

It sure seems that way Conrad. Also, the money angle on this hasn't really been played up too much and you know what they say...when it ain't about the money, it's about the money.

 

[Duckjake]

Because the running game wasn't working

Because they were trying to run out of 3 and 4 wide receiver sets. Where's the two TE power play? Just finished recording the replay on NFL Network. I'll go look.

 

[dogpoo32]

Because the running game wasn't working

And the responsibility falls directly on Whis and Grimm for fielding a joke O-Line. Whis doesn't like Matt's style. Whis seems to want a QB who is hardheaded and will argue with him. Matt needs to get in Whis' face and tell him he's tired of his ****. But Matt's not that type of guy, so he will move on and succeed with a coach who knows how to deal with different personality types.

 

[JeffGollin]

What inquiring minds want to know is that if the Cards are planning to go to a more balanced offense with a tough running game why are they running so many 4 wide receiver sets in the preseason?

Because your assumption is not valid - because it is a presumption posing as fact.

A bunch of pundits (and some players) have speculated (as in "are making a logical guess) that the Cards (because of Warner's and Boldin's departure) will go to a more balanced attack.

Meanwhile, our head coach has demonstrated the MO of "living off the land" from game to game - i.e. working with the talent we've got, exploiting enemy matchup advantages and taking what the opposition gives us.

The key to winning in the NFL these days is to "have answers" to anything our opponents can throw at us. So that, if we need to throw the ball, we can throw the ball. Or if we need to pound it, we can pound it. Or whatever.

We are blessed in having a couple of very good RB's, a solid #3 RB and more quality receivers than we have room for.

Answers.

 

[TheCardFan]

Ok so in most peoples opinion who have watched the 2 play now in 3 games Matt has easily had much better numbers all the while not really been put in position to have better numbers.

Heard the same excuses when Leinart lost the job to Warner and this board debated the decision every year...remember all the Kurt haters?

I am not saying DA is Kurt because he isn't but to say Leinart hasn't been given the chance is ridiculous and simply not accurate.

 

[Russ Smith]

Because they were trying to run out of 3 and 4 wide receiver sets. Where's the two TE power play? Just finished recording the replay on NFL Network. I'll go look.

It's because our best TE isn't playing IMHO. EVen when we have 2 TE's out there it's Becht and Spach or Becht and Dray so nobody worries about the pass.

If and when Patrick is healthy we'll see, Matt uses the TE, not sure about DA I know he used Winslow a lot but he almost played like a WR in Cleveland's O, I don't know if DA will use the TE in our system.

 

[Russ Smith]

Heard the same excuses when Leinart lost the job to Warner and this board debated the decision every year...remember all the Kurt haters?

I am not saying DA is Kurt because he isn't but to say Leinart hasn't been given the chance is ridiculous and simply not accurate.

True but totally different. Most of us who were doubting Kurt had a very simple reason for it, he looked completely washed up when he got benched by the giants. Then he came here and again lost the job because he looked punch drunk, stumbling around, fumbling snaps etc. It was easy to think at his age with his injury history he was done.

I doubt any of us would have said Matt was the better QB if we knew Kurt was going to turn the clock back like he did, you can count on one hand the number of QB's who have thrown the ball that well in NFL history.

I was down on Kurt because I thought he was physically finished, he proved me wrong.

Matt really has a different thing to prove, he has to prove that he can do the job mentally, that he's not afraid to go downfield, that he can command the respect of the team, that he'll make the right reads and calls etc.

 

[chickenhead]

I think Warner made us accustomed to an unquestioned starter, but the fact is that over the last decade we saw two QBs with over 100 attempts at least 4 times. Blake, King, McCown, Warner in his first year...the post-Plummer era was musical chairs at times.

We may just be seeing DA and ML competing for the starting job in game 1. I don't think Whiz will as impatient with QBs as Green, but you never know.

 

[Spielman]

I think that is really the crux of this, I think we got caught flat footed when Warner retired "I think Urban or Somers mentioned this", I think the FO was more fine with Matt than the coaches are and that's why I think we're in this mess we're in now.

If they were caught flat-footed, they really shouldn't have been, and even if they were surprised, they had plenty of time to discuss things and formulate a plan before free agency started. It's not like the situation dragged on for ages.

 

[Spielman]

I think Warner made us accustomed to an unquestioned starter, but the fact is that over the last decade we saw two QBs with over 100 attempts at least 4 times. Blake, King, McCown, Warner in his first year...the post-Plummer era was musical chairs at times.

We may just be seeing DA and ML competing for the starting job in game 1. I don't think Whiz will as impatient with QBs as Green, but you never know.

Um. You got used to having an unquestioned starter in just 2009? That was quick. Remember the preseason battle in 2008? Leinart being the starter to start 2007, but Warner spelling him with the no-huddle before Leinart got hurt? Warner starting 2006 with people calling for Leinart beginning in week 2 when Kurt sucked?

 

[crisper57]

My take:

If the F.O. was caught flat-footed when KW retired, they need to be slapped hard. I remember his face after the big hit in the Saints game. I turned to my wife and said "He's done". It was obvious.

Anderson:

Leinart calls him "A.D.D." Apparently he is very hyper and has a short attention span. This translates into his play, I think. He's a spaz out there. And this will be our starting QB this year, even though our window to win now is closing fast. He has all the tools for greatness, save for an attention to detail. If he can play within the system, maybe it will be okay.

Leinart:

Plays scared. He will always check down. Maybe he thought padding his stats in the preseason was the way to not lose the job. To me, he seems to take the easy way out. He says the right things. He appears to be participating adequately, studying up on playboods and such. But his drive seems to be coming from not wanting to screw up, rather than from some internal desire to succeed.

Now he and Whiz are about to bash heads. Leinart wants answers. He wants to know why playing "not to fail" isn't what his coach wants. Whiz clearly has no faith in Matt. If not for the F.O. Matty might have already been shown the door. I don't see how this gets fixed.

Hall:

Keep progressing kid. You might be the eventual silver lining to all this.

Skelton:

Too early to tell.