Nash -- Improve or I'm Gone

[devilalum]

The PNR won't work nearly as well with Nash and Dwight as it did with Nash and Amare. Howard doesn't have the automatic 15 foot jumper like Amare. The PNR works better with a big that can step back and make that shot.

 

[slinslin]

Every playoff team in the NBA will make Nash an offer I don't see him in Orlando.

He could go to OKC and play 24 mpg or to Chicago or to Miami, Utah, Denver, Indiana etc

 

[JustWinBaby]

Don't worry, you'll never change anyone's opinion on Mike D either. I usually stay out of this argument as all the facts have been rehashed many times and the board is almost unanimous in it's opinion on his coaching style. For the most part, I'm one of the very few that happens to agree with you (mostly, anyway). I think he was an excellent coach and brought us our most enjoyable stretch of basketball ever. The biggest problem I had with him was his belief that it wasn't his job to teach young players.

This isn't the same NBA that he played in, it absolutely needs to be part of the job description for the coaching staff. I would have loved to see what this team could have done with a real (and strong) GM at the helm. Someone that would have identified and brought in young talent every year instead of selling it off for chump change, someone that would have demanded the coaching staff develop that talent. I think Mike would still be in Phoenix and we'd have celebrated a couple of championships along the way.

I think the league is a lesser place without him and his offense oriented style in it. It's harder to win it all playing his way but I'm convinced it was possible to do it. The league is going the other way right now so it's probably best he take a break for a few years. Maybe someday, the NBA will realize it has shot itself in the foot by allowing refs to ignore the rules during the playoffs that they were forced to follow during the season.

Steve

We will just have to disagree on him not developing young talent.

I just do not know what young talent he did not develop. The ones that he played Amare, Shawn, Barbosa and JJ were great in his system and are still a factor in the league. Folks can say he had nothing to do with them but they won only 29 games the year he took over. With his system he consistently won around 60 games every year but one.

He did say that he did not want late round draft picks that he would not play but rather opted for playing and paying his guys when given the choice. I seem to remember that it was Sarver that wondered why he should invest in someone that would not play a major role. There were restrictions put on both Mike and Steve from the owner. Mike opted to protect his guys. Who really was at fault on this issue? I expect that he would have played anyone that could have helped make us better.

In New York he played and developed the youngsters. They were his best players and he played them.

Mike certainly was not perfect but as both you and I suggest it was fun basketball to watch. I virtually watched every minute of every game and listened to every post game comment, good and bad. I read every article and basically could not get enough. Now I could care less what happens, well not really. I just have very little confidence that the current decision makers know how to get it fixed. I have watched very few games this year from beginning to end, I do not think I am alone.

It was not broke when Mike was let go we just needed some fine tuning. Sarver has put this ship in the junk yard while passing the blame on to others.

 

[az jam]

I am shocked.

Someone disagrees with my take on Mike D'Antoni basketball.

Still not changing my mind, ever.

i am also a big Mike D'Antoni fan. What an exciting team we had to watch in his years here.

 

[BC867]

i am also a big Mike D'Antoni fan. What an exciting team we had to watch in his years here.

Until Nash wore down from the latter part of each season on. In his own way, it was the same 50-and-fade mentality we had in our best years under Colangelo/MacLeod.

 

[slinslin]

Speaking of a 20 point scorer Bradley Beal and Austin Rivers are these type of guys that can be had in the draft.

Austin Rivers seems to be an easy choice for me. His game is more suited for the NBA than NCAA. He can shoot and he can create his own shot, has an explosive first step and proved he can win you games at the buzzer.

That description fits exactly what the Suns tried to get last offseason and it also fits the description of what Steve Nash said in the interview.

Eric Gordon is not available (unless drastically overpaid), injury prone and what people forget Eric Gordon is at least not yet an allstar quality player to begin with.

OJ Mayo is too much of an enigma to be a consistent 20ppg+ scorer for a team although I would like Mayo for a contract averaging 6-7M$.

 

[sunsfan88]

"If they don't try to improve the team, should I say, 'Yeah, I want to come back,' " Nash said. "I think everybody wants to win and improve. We're a team that is in transition, so I thought everybody knew we were waiting for the summer to improve the team.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/sports/sun...wn-fill-injured-grant-hill.html#ixzz1qjLsVzc8
​

 

[JustWinBaby]

i am also a big Mike D'Antoni fan. What an exciting team we had to watch in his years here.

Amen

Damn it was fun to watch.

Yep, I miss it.

 

[chickenhead]

Grass is greener. I liked coach D while he was in Phoenix, too, and I wanted to see the Suns win it all playing that style. Forgive the tired statement, but I honestly think that without some combination of JJ's broken face, Nash's broken nose, Horry and the suspensions, and the Kurt Thomas trade, we'd have seen a legitimate enough shot at a title that the whole "you absolutely CAN'T win with that style" argument would have been significantly weakened.

Anyway, after Nash's comments and the discussion, I've decided I'm glad he made them. Why? Because I really think the most likely scenario for this year was for the Suns to NOT trade Nash, for them TO re-sign him, and for them to do nothing else.

I'll admit it, I'm enough of a kool-aider that if they build a "last-hurrah" roster around Nash and some old HoFers, I'll find a way to get pretty excited. But what I really didn't want to watch was a 5-year Nash and Hill retirement tour, with nothing else.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Grass is greener. I liked coach D while he was in Phoenix, too, and I wanted to see the Suns win it all playing that style. Forgive the tired statement, but I honestly think that without some combination of JJ's broken face, Nash's broken nose, Horry and the suspensions, and the Kurt Thomas trade, we'd have seen a legitimate enough shot at a title that the whole "you absolutely CAN'T win with that style" argument would have been significantly weakened.

Anyway, after Nash's comments and the discussion, I've decided I'm glad he made them. Why? Because I really think the most likely scenario for this year was for the Suns to NOT trade Nash, for them TO re-sign him, and for them to do nothing else.

I'll admit it, I'm enough of a kool-aider that if they build a "last-hurrah" roster around Nash and some old HoFers, I'll find a way to get pretty excited. But what I really didn't want to watch was a 5-year Nash and Hill retirement tour, with nothing else.

I think it would have done more than weakened that argument, it would have destroyed it. Also, it would have been the best thing that could have happened to the league. At our peak, more and more teams were coming around to playing a similar style and the game became even more popular world-wide. Since the talking heads decided that our failure was proof this style couldn't win, the league has gone full tilt the other way. I don't know if it's had any impact on the international appeal yet but I believe the NBA will eventually regret allowing this to happen if it doesn't already.

I expect to see another committee formed in the next few years with an eye to taking out the absurd physical play that dominates the game today. It's hard to showcase the grace and athleticism of these players if the refs continue to allow a players progress (on either side of the ball) to be impeded by the use of the hands or the knee, or the hip, or the elbow or the shoulder.

Steve

 

[Absolute Zero]

Nash's desire for the Suns to improve in the offseason is going to cost a lot of $$$$ to implement. How do we have the $$$ to do that if we are dishing out major $$$ to resign Nash? Is that realistic with our cheap ownership?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Nash's desire for the Suns to improve in the offseason is going to cost a lot of $$$$ to implement. How do we have the $$$ to do that if we are dishing out major $$$ to resign Nash? Is that realistic with our cheap ownership?

it's really not even a matter of cheap ownership... if Nash wants to be paid handsomely, there's not enough room under the cap to really improve around him save one MAX slot... for the mythical MAX FA that doesn't exist this year.

 

[sunsfan88]

I don't think Nash wants to paid big $$. Not once have I heard him say that he'll sign his next contract with the team that offers him the most $$.

I think at his heart, he wants to win a title with PHX. It probably hurt him so much to see Dirk win one with Dallas while him still not having won one. He doesn't wanna leave and win elsewhere cause it wouldn't be the same but if our ownership isn't willing to improve the team, then that's his only choice.

And honestly, I think the fact that Nash keeps saying "20 pt scorer" and "go to scorer" all point at a certain FA who is still incredibly young with a lot of potential and has the experience of averaging 20 pt in season, Eric Gordon. Also Nash is a big fan of Gentry (which I don't understand) and we all know how Alvin is Gordon's biggest fan.

Then I think we can expect to make a run at Batum after we amnesty Childress. This would mean that Grant doesn't come back, but oh well. I also expect to see us make a push for a traditional PF during the off season. With Utah having a cluster of big men, I can see us in discussion with them for Paul Millsap.

 

[Absolute Zero]

If I am a quality free agent, I will want to know if Nash is going to be on the team before I sign on. If there is no Nash, why would I want to join a lottery bound Suns team?

 

[JustWinBaby]

I think it would have done more than weakened that argument, it would have destroyed it. Also, it would have been the best thing that could have happened to the league. At our peak, more and more teams were coming around to playing a similar style and the game became even more popular world-wide. Since the talking heads decided that our failure was proof this style couldn't win, the league has gone full tilt the other way. I don't know if it's had any impact on the international appeal yet but I believe the NBA will eventually regret allowing this to happen if it doesn't already.

I expect to see another committee formed in the next few years with an eye to taking out the absurd physical play that dominates the game today. It's hard to showcase the grace and athleticism of these players if the refs continue to allow a players progress (on either side of the ball) to be impeded by the use of the hands or the knee, or the hip, or the elbow or the shoulder.

Steve

I agree with all of that, especially the Physcial play that is allowed. As you have said it is stepped up a notch in the playoffs and it turns into a different type of basketball.

You always hear the comment, boy that guy is physcial, I don't get it. When you touch someone or push someone with any part of your body I believe according to the rules that is a foul, what am I missing. The coaches with the best results are the ones with PHYSICAL players pushing the rules to the limit. They grab, hold, hack, push, shove whenever possible to stop the opponent. The Spurs are the masters of the trade and Phil Jackson teams have done it forever. If you cannot play PHYSICAL, you have no chance in the playoffs.

Everytime they replay the shot Jordan made in the lane against the Jazz to win the championship, while pushing his defender away, it just pisses me off. If it would have been a lesser player if would have been an offensive foul.

By the way I stand corrected on Stan Van Gundy, he isn't very good. The game they played against the Knicks on Monday was horrific. The effort was not there. I blame the coach. I think that happens with that team more often than not. I can see D'Antoni ending up there next year.

 

[mojorizen7]

I enjoy physical basketball. I dont enjoy thuggish play. The two dont have to go hand-in-hand IMO.

I dont enjoy softball on a basketball court either Jumpshooting teams that cant rebound or guard anyone are just asking for trouble in the post-season.
Why would a team even go that direction? Maybe to prove a point? Still waiting on that...

 

[hcsilla]

Every playoff team in the NBA will make Nash an offer I don't see him in Orlando.

He could go to OKC and play 24 mpg or to Chicago or to Miami, Utah, Denver, Indiana etc

1st of all I always saw a businessman in Nash. A true professional, a very controlled one but still a businessman. I doubt that he will sign to someone who is not able/ready to pay the price for him.
Besides I just don't see him being a 3rd/4th man in a contender team and chasing the ring. He is just not Gary Payton.

That leaves only Indiana from the above list.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I enjoy physical basketball. I dont enjoy thuggish play. The two dont have to go hand-in-hand IMO.

Quite true but defense and physical play don't have to go hand-in-hand either. If you like watching basketball the way Tom Thibodeau teaches it, more power to you. As for me, I prefer watching the game the way it was played by the Showtime Lakers (who played decent defense), or the Al Attles Warriors or Pop's spurs (minus Bowen) or Cotton's KC teams in the early 80's or any number of teams that played this game the way the rules are written.

I dont enjoy softball on a basketball court either Jumpshooting teams that cant rebound or guard anyone are just asking for trouble in the post-season.
Why would a team even go that direction? Maybe to prove a point? Still waiting on that...

Wait no further. The best way to win in the postseason is to surround the best player in the game with other great and good players. If you don't have one of the very small number of truly game-changing players it's almost impossible to win it all.

Dantoni's system was a gimmick but it was the only gimmick that would have given us a chance to win it all, IMO. I loved watching it, it was innovative and exciting and it made a lot of players look better than they really were. It's not the easiest way to win a championship but when you don't have a Kobe or a Duncan or even a Garnett, it's one way to give yourself a chance to compete with those teams that do.

Steve

 

[JCSunsfan]

If I am a quality free agent, I will want to know if Nash is going to be on the team before I sign on. If there is no Nash, why would I want to join a lottery bound Suns team?

And Nash says he won't sign unless the team is improved (signing a quality free agent), hence the dilemma. So, unless Nash goes out an recruits who he wants and then signs as a package deal ala LeBron and Miami, he is gone.

BTW, insiders are saying that Nash wanted the Suns to sign Diaw and were upset that they did not.

 

[Mainstreet]

And Nash says he won't sign unless the team is improved (signing a quality free agent), hence the dilemma. So, unless Nash goes out an recruits who he wants and then signs as a package deal ala LeBron and Miami, he is gone.

BTW, insiders are saying that Nash wanted the Suns to sign Diaw and were upset that they did not.

I did not give it much weight coming from Peter Vescey of the New York Post but who knows.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_sports/nashing_his_teeth_RtknJgjPozWCRRyXXhuEQJ

 

[Covert Rain]

I am shocked.

Someone disagrees with my take on Mike D'Antoni basketball.

Still not changing my mind, ever.

Fair enough. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, I am just as confident that 10 years from now D'Antoni still has done nothing in this league and the prevailing thoughts about him will be validated.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Mike D'Antoni has been a complete and utter failure without Steve Nash... while Steve Nash and Amare/Dirk have been to multiple conference championship rounds without him.

dude's a one trick pony. Take Nash away and the guy's done nothing with two different teams... while his Suns team without him and with Nash/Amare healthy reached the same level the DA teams did, reaching Game 6 of the WCF. Not sure how that can really be argued.

 

[mojorizen7]

Quite true but defense and physical play don't have to go hand-in-hand either. If you like watching basketball the way Tom Thibodeau teaches it, more power to you. As for me, I prefer watching the game the way it was played by the Showtime Lakers (who played decent defense), or the Al Attles Warriors or Pop's spurs (minus Bowen) or Cotton's KC teams in the early 80's or any number of teams that played this game the way the rules are written.



Wait no further. The best way to win in the postseason is to surround the best player in the game with other great and good players. If you don't have one of the very small number of truly game-changing players it's almost impossible to win it all.

Dantoni's system was a gimmick but it was the only gimmick that would have given us a chance to win it all, IMO. I loved watching it, it was innovative and exciting and it made a lot of players look better than they really were. It's not the easiest way to win a championship but when you don't have a Kobe or a Duncan or even a Garnett, it's one way to give yourself a chance to compete with those teams that do.

Steve

We disagree on a few things Steve. Thats cool though,it seems that i dont see eye to eye with most Suns fans

I do agree that Riley's Lakers were better defensively than maybe given credit for. Still,you mentioned that good defense and physical play dont have to go hand-in-hand either. Eh,i dont know...i think i know what you're alluding too though. Quick feet,quick rotations,hand in face etc....?

IMO a player(s) must use physicality to own the paint defensively. There are times when a player must "over-use" his physicality too...like when the opposition is consistently getting into the lane,getting to the rim, owning the offensive boards etc(sound familiar?). If you're being "out-quicked" then i have no problem sending little messages of physicality in the paint,as well as setting a high pick to get into the oppositions head(and maybe get them to change what they want to do).
Some call it dirty play,others call it thuggish. IMO as long as you're not out to hurt someone then its simply a sound strategy.

Also,rebounding is an area that is often lumped into the defensive category wouldn't you agree? An area of the game that doesn't concern scoring or passing. Two players equally skilled at rebounding: the guy who is more physical than the other guy will get the basketball(unless you're Mark West of course )

A team that plays with more physicality consistently,and gains that reputation will already be one step ahead of the quicker,soft,jumpshooting team in a 7-game series. Thats the way it is. You(and everyone else here) probably disagree. I respect that but you're all wrong

You and i could debate this all day as gentleman but that'd be pointless.
Cheers to Phoenix rising from the ashes again someday a smarter basketball team

 

[mojorizen7]

Cue the reponses.

0-44 with no relief in sight.
At some point they've got to approach it differently.

 

[AzStevenCal]

We disagree on a few things Steve. Thats cool though,it seems that i dont see eye to eye with most Suns fans

I do agree that Riley's Lakers were better defensively than maybe given credit for. Still,you mentioned that good defense and physical play dont have to go hand-in-hand either. Eh,i dont know...i think i know what you're alluding too though. Quick feet,quick rotations,hand in face etc....?

IMO a player(s) must use physicality to own the paint defensively. There are times when a player must "over-use" his physicality too...like when the opposition is consistently getting into the lane,getting to the rim, owning the offensive boards etc(sound familiar?). If you're being "out-quicked" then i have no problem sending little messages of physicality in the paint,as well as setting a high pick to get into the oppositions head(and maybe get them to change what they want to do).
Some call it dirty play,others call it thuggish. IMO as long as you're not out to hurt someone then its simply a sound strategy.

Also,rebounding is an area that is often lumped into the defensive category wouldn't you agree? An area of the game that doesn't concern scoring or passing. Two players equally skilled at rebounding: the guy who is more physical than the other guy will get the basketball(unless you're Mark West of course )

A team that plays with more physicality consistently,and gains that reputation will already be one step ahead of the quicker,soft,jumpshooting team in a 7-game series. Thats the way it is. You(and everyone else here) probably disagree. I respect that but you're all wrong

You and i could debate this all day as gentleman but that'd be pointless.
Cheers to Phoenix rising from the ashes again someday a smarter basketball team

We're probably not that far apart on some of this but I hate the "send a message" crap that you're talking about. However, I seriously doubt you'd find more than 1 or 2 people that would disagree with your statement that teams that play physically have an advantage in the playoffs. I enjoyed Mike's offense but that wouldn't be my first choice. I'd prefer to see a team with balance, especially one that controls the paint and doesn't get pushed around. I'd love to see Phoenix play the way San Antonio has for the past decade (with the exception of Bowen and Manu).

To me, defense is all about establishing position. I'd say the same thing about offense. I hate to see a guy come off a pick only to have an opponent impede his progress with his hip (or any other body part without the player owning the position necessary to stop that progress). I hate the fact that it happens in the first place but I especially hate the fact that the refs eventually give in and allow teams to do this regularly. This kind of thing was happening a lot until the league put together that committee with Colangelo. IMO, we've returned to that style of play and it's destroying the flow of the game. And I'm convinced it will continue to get worse until the NBA pulls it's head out of it's butt and does something about it.

Steve