Nene stays in Denver

[Treesquid PhD]

you should know me well enough by now cheese to know that I call it like I see it. Please tell me what the upside to signing Boris Diaw to a maximum or near maximum contract extension this summer? You and others keep complaining and complaining, but I don't see you giving any solutions. What would you do differently? When you tell us all I guarantee I'll be able to poke a million holes in your plan.

If everyone who isn't bitching and moaning about everything the Phoenix Suns do is drinking the Kool-Aid, what are you doing? And don't give me any more of this crap about banning you because you can't help it. Don't try to tell me that the Phoenix Suns are going to end up like the Arizona Cardinals. Bill Bidwill would never have purchased the Phoenix Suns for $400 million in the first place. He wouldn't have given $100 million to Steve Nash and Q and another $25 million to a player like Bell. We are talking about an owner who may be trying to avoid a luxury tax... not someone trying to spend well under the salary cap.

Do I think Sarver is the ideal owner? Hell no. However when a lot of you guys compare him to the Bill Bidwill's and Donald Sterling's of the world you are so far off base. One of the things that bothers me about Sarver is his sideline antics. I don't mind that he is enthusiastic, but the yelling at other teams is too much. That said, seems to me that's proof that the guy really cares about winning.

Have some freaking patience.

Joe

ok dude, I'll be more pateint and see how things work out...but in exchange don't come blowing smoke up my arse when the suns sign Linsey hunter and Eric whateveryourakowski and tell me that is an example of how serious Sarver is about the title. Fair?

 

[Joe Mama]

joe - if you're tired of reading what I have to say, ban me - it's really that simple.

As far as Bill Bidwill not giving Steve Nash money, what do you call what he did with Edgerrin James this year? Or what he gave a Raja Bell-like defensive tackle from the Giants this offseason? Or what he gave Bert Berry two years ago and a Q-like signing with David Macklin? Or what he gave Kurt Warner last year and for the next two years?

Now I know someone will probably come on here and COMPLETELY EXAGGERATE what I'm saying and come back with a response like, "So I suppose you think Bidwill is a GREAT OWNER, HUH? Figures coming from a Cardinal fan" or something stupid to that extent. No - that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is I've seen what cheap owners are like. I have a keen awareness of being able to read the writing on the wall BECAUSE I'm a Cardinal fan and there's a lot of writing on the wall that leads me to believe Sarver is interested in winning, but only to a certain extent and that certain extent is his wallet. Most Suns fan don't know any better and FOR GOOD REASON - we've always had good ownership so how could they know what the tell-tale signs are that an owner is cheap? They wouldn't.

As far as offering Boris a MAX contract - e tu, Joe? IS THERE ANYWHERE THAT I'VE SAID THAT? OR ANYONE ELSE THAT HAS EITHER? No - but hey, keep exaggerating what's going on, it seems to get people in your corner.

All I'm saying is if you're gonna walk the walk and scream at the refs, then talk the talk and open your wallet, even if that means going over the luxury tax. The Suns keep talking about keeping their championship team together - well, I've got news for them - WE AREN'T A CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM YET. Until you are, you better make your team as good as freaking possible and I don't see that happening right now.

If you'll recall, I didn't bitch and moan last summer when we busted the team apart. I thought they made GREAT moves trading Q and the 21st pick for KT and I thought they made a GREAT move getting Raja Bell, but that was under a different GM. A GM who knew what he was doing. Then, Sarver took over with JJ and well, ever since, I haven't had a whole lot of reason to support him. He got bailed out of that deal by BC, and now low-balled another player that I think would have been a valuable piece to the organization, not to mention trading away picks to do it and now you'r etelling me that we're looking at Lindsey Hunter and Eric Piatkoswki to upgrade our team? THAT all wreaks of penny pinching to me. Sorry if that offends anyone.

The maximum contract extension for Boris Diaw would be about $79 million. If Nene gets $60 million to you not think that Boris Diaw is going to be angling for at least $70-75 million? What did Nene average this year... 10 points and 6 rebounds? I believe Boris Diaw average something like 14 points, 6.5 rebounds, and 6.5 assists not to mention he had a very big playoffs.

I could have sworn that you kept comparing Sarver to the pre-Dennis Green Cardinals. Seems to me that James and these other guys have been signed since then.

Sarver and the Phoenix Suns said repeatedly that they would match the offer for JJ unless the Atlanta Hawks made a decent sign and trade. I fail to see how BC gets gets all the credit for that deal while Sarver is a goat.

Btw I still haven't heard you explain that what you would have done this summer? Who would you have drafted? Would you have given Kurt Thomas that contract that he got from the Clippers? You seem to be full of complaints but have no solutions.

Again, I'm not going to ban you unless you do something that is worthy of it. Even when I disagree with your posts I generally enjoy reading what you have to say.

Joe

 

[Renz]

believe me Renz - I've been saying the same thing and the reactions on this board are EXACTLY what they've been like during that HORRENDOUS 2003 offseason.

Sarver and DA had a GREAT team built for them, but so far, it's been distressing to see what they've done with it and how they're going to deal in the future at this point.

BUT - it's MUCH more comforting coming off a WCF and having this offseason, rather than coming off the worst season in history with a similar off-season, Holy crap were the Cards TOTALLY clueless before DG. At least now, the Cards win the OFF-SEASON SUPER-BOWL! (yeah, you take small victories when you can get them as a Cards fan).

Absolutely. The Suns are a long way from the McGinnis-era Cards, but that "June 1st" vibe is definitely in the air.

As for the Cards, we have to at least finish 8-8. I am still a DG guy, but we need to see some on-field results this season and I think we will. Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Absolutely. The Suns are a long way from the McGinnis-era Cards, but that "June 1st" vibe is definitely in the air.

As for the Cards, we have to at least finish 8-8. I am still a DG guy, but we need to see some on-field results this season and I think we will. Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

I agree - this is DG's last free-pass year from me. They've had the best possible off-season ANYONE could ever dream of, are going into a new stadium and they'fve had two solid offseasons behind them. If there' snot significant improvment this year, I'm ready to be done with DG.

That being said, I fully expect Edge to blow out his knee or get caught under the moving field and have his leg completely torn out of his socket and for the Cards to fall flat on their face again. No matter what they do, they are still, after all, the Cardinals.

Hijack OVER.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

The maximum contract extension for Boris Diaw would be about $79 million. If Nene gets $60 million to you not think that Boris Diaw is going to be angling for at least $70-75 million? What did Nene average this year... 10 points and 6 rebounds? I believe Boris Diaw average something like 14 points, 6.5 rebounds, and 6.5 assists not to mention he had a very big playoffs.

I could have sworn that you kept comparing Sarver to the pre-Dennis Green Cardinals. Seems to me that James and these other guys have been signed since then.

Sarver and the Phoenix Suns said repeatedly that they would match the offer for JJ unless the Atlanta Hawks made a decent sign and trade. I fail to see how BC gets gets all the credit for that deal while Sarver is a goat.

Btw I still haven't heard you explain that what you would have done this summer? Who would you have drafted? Would you have given Kurt Thomas that contract that he got from the Clippers? You seem to be full of complaints but have no solutions.

Again, I'm not going to ban you unless you do something that is worthy of it. Even when I disagree with your posts I generally enjoy reading what you have to say.

Joe

How about a counter to LA 3 years 15?

 

[Evil Ash]

Absolutely. The Suns are a long way from the McGinnis-era Cards, but that "June 1st" vibe is definitely in the air.

The Suns if Amare and Kurt return healthy, don't need a great deal of help other then depth players to allow for rest (June 1st cuts were typically backups).

So them not going after 1 big name player isn't that big of a deal if they instead get a few players to add depth. They aren't relying heavily on guys like Lindsey Hunter other then to give guys like Nash a breather

 

[Cheesebeef]

Btw I still haven't heard you explain that what you would have done this summer? Who would you have drafted? Would you have given Kurt Thomas that contract that he got from the Clippers? You seem to be full of complaints but have no solutions.

Repeatedly, Joe, I've said what I wanted us to do. I WANTED us to trade the picks and sign TT to the MLE - full in paid - 4 years. We basically offered him a deal that was just a tad better than what we gave JR. last year, even though Thomas has proved that he raises his game in the playoffs and creates more problems for teams on offense than JR does. The offer they gave him was insulting - if they had offered more years or more money - just one or the other and he spurned us fine - BUT WE TRIED TO JEW HIM DOWN (and before people get all crazy here, I'm a Shapiro - I'm allowed to use the term ) ON BOTH - that's pathetic IMO. I think that team, if Amare was healthy WOULD BE HANDS DOWN CHAMPION. Depth on the interior of Marion, KT, Amare, Diaw and TT would have allowed us to play match-up hell with EVERYONE. It would have been the more feared front-court in NBA history. 5 guys deep, with TT probably playing amajor role against teams like Dallas and KT playing major roles against teams like SA. Now that's not to say - like most people here would exaggerate - that I don' tthink wehave a shot next year - we do - but I thought it was going to be as sure of a thing as possible with that kind of depth/versatility up front.

Now people can say TT wasn't worth it and played as well as he did only because he was in a contract year, but that rely belies the fact that TT, in his 25 minutes a game for during the regular season actually played right BELOW his career averages and then played SLIGHTLY above his playoff averages for his career. The guy is what he is, an 11-13 point a games scorer in 24 minutes who steps up in the playoffs, at every stage of his career - contract year or not - nothing more, nothing less.

I haven't once complained about back-court depth - most GREAT teams don't have 4 man guard rotations and with Boris coming off the bench with PG skills, you would have had some semblanc eof that anyway with Nash, Bell, Barbosa and Diaw. That would have been good enough for me.

 

[Cheesebeef]

How about a counter to LA 3 years 15?

EXACTLY - they didn't offer him money OR years. I can understand holding back on one or the other, but to low-ball him on both is pretty ridiculous to me.

 

[sunsfn]

The maximum contract extension for Boris Diaw would be about $79 million. If Nene gets $60 million to you not think that Boris Diaw is going to be angling for at least $70-75 million? What did Nene average this year... 10 points and 6 rebounds? I believe Boris Diaw average something like 14 points, 6.5 rebounds, and 6.5 assists not to mention he had a very big playoffs.

Joe

You are confused Joe, Nene did not play this year. He got hurt in the first game of the season and had surgery!

 

[Joe Mama]

Repeatedly, Joe, I've said what I wanted us to do. I WANTED us to trade the picks and sign TT to the MLE - full in paid - 4 years. We basically offered him a deal that was just a tad better than what we gave JR. last year, even though Thomas has proved that he raises his game in the playoffs and creates more problems for teams on offense than JR does. The offer they gave him was insulting - if they had offered more years or more money - just one or the other and he spurned us fine - BUT WE TRIED TO JEW HIM DOWN (and before people get all crazy here, I'm a Shapiro - I'm allowed to use the term ) ON BOTH - that's pathetic IMO. I think that team, if Amare was healthy WOULD BE HANDS DOWN CHAMPION. Depth on the interior of Marion, KT, Amare, Diaw and TT would have allowed us to play match-up hell with EVERYONE. It would have been the more feared front-court in NBA history. 5 guys deep, with TT probably playing amajor role against teams like Dallas and KT playing major roles against teams like SA. Now that's not to say - like most people here would exaggerate - that I don' tthink wehave a shot next year - we do - but I thought it was going to be as sure of a thing as possible with that kind of depth/versatility up front.

Now people can say TT wasn't worth it and played as well as he did only because he was in a contract year, but that rely belies the fact that TT, in his 25 minutes a game for during the regular season actually played right BELOW his career averages and then played SLIGHTLY above his playoff averages for his career. The guy is what he is, an 11-13 point a games scorer in 24 minutes who steps up in the playoffs, at every stage of his career - contract year or not - nothing more, nothing less.

I haven't once complained about back-court depth - most GREAT teams don't have 4 man guard rotations and with Boris coming off the bench with PG skills, you would have had some semblanc eof that anyway with Nash, Bell, Barbosa and Diaw. That would have been good enough for me.

thanks. I remembered you saying several times that you didn't mind them trading the picks. I just did not remember you saying you would have given Tim Thomas the full mid-level exception. I agree that Tim Thomas would have been very nice to have next year going after a championship. I do believe he dogs it, especially on the boards and on defense, during the regular season, but I can't argue with his playoff performance this season. I don't agree with people who think this was all about getting a new contract.

If the Phoenix Suns spend the mid-level exception money on players I don't like or just don't spend the money I'll be upset along with most of you. It really has nothing to do with the draft picks either. I do think they need backup in the frontcourt in case Kurt Thomas and/or Amare Stoudemire suffer setbacks or other injuries.

I'm just going to give the Phoenix Suns longer than 2-3 days before I start freaking out.

Joe

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'm just going to give the Phoenix Suns longer than 2-3 days before I start freaking out.

Joe

and that my friend, is why you are a more internet firendly message baord user and moderator and I... am not!

Besides, if you get REALLY mad now and expect NOTHING, then when something does happen, you feel that much better about it. It's called destroying expectations after your initial expectations aren't met!

 

[Arizona's Finest]

joe - if you're tired of reading what I have to say, ban me - it's really that simple.

As far as Bill Bidwill not giving Steve Nash money, what do you call what he did with Edgerrin James this year? Or what he gave a Raja Bell-like defensive tackle from the Giants this offseason? Or what he gave Bert Berry two years ago and a Q-like signing with David Macklin? Or what he gave Kurt Warner last year and for the next two years?

Now I know someone will probably come on here and COMPLETELY EXAGGERATE what I'm saying and come back with a response like, "So I suppose you think Bidwill is a GREAT OWNER, HUH? Figures coming from a Cardinal fan" or something stupid to that extent. No - that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is I've seen what cheap owners are like. I have a keen awareness of being able to read the writing on the wall BECAUSE I'm a Cardinal fan and there's a lot of writing on the wall that leads me to believe Sarver is interested in winning, but only to a certain extent and that certain extent is his wallet. Most Suns fan don't know any better and FOR GOOD REASON - we've always had good ownership so how could they know what the tell-tale signs are that an owner is cheap? They wouldn't.

As far as offering Boris a MAX contract - e tu, Joe? IS THERE ANYWHERE THAT I'VE SAID THAT? OR ANYONE ELSE THAT HAS EITHER? No - but hey, keep exaggerating what's going on, it seems to get people in your corner.

All I'm saying is if you're gonna walk the walk and scream at the refs, then talk the talk and open your wallet, even if that means going over the luxury tax. The Suns keep talking about keeping their championship team together - well, I've got news for them - WE AREN'T A CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM YET. Until you are, you better make your team as good as freaking possible and I don't see that happening right now.

If you'll recall, I didn't bitch and moan last summer when we busted the team apart. I thought they made GREAT moves trading Q and the 21st pick for KT and I thought they made a GREAT move getting Raja Bell, but that was under a different GM. A GM who knew what he was doing. Then, Sarver took over with JJ and well, ever since, I haven't had a whole lot of reason to support him. He got bailed out of that deal by BC, and now low-balled another player that I think would have been a valuable piece to the organization, not to mention trading away picks to do it and now you'r etelling me that we're looking at Lindsey Hunter and Eric Piatkoswki to upgrade our team? THAT all wreaks of penny pinching to me. Sorry if that offends anyone.

Music to my ears.....

I agree with you whole heartedly. Its not so much the culimination of the moves and how they will affect the current team.....its more that they are ominous signs of things to come. And yes every one better start to worry about the possibility of keeping Mr. Diaw.

And you are exacly right about my cardinals too. It seems the Suns fans who moonlight as Cards fans are well are the ones who are most touchy/but cognizant about all these negative signs by Mr. Sarver. And its beacuse we have been there, done that. I'm not equating Sarver to Bidwill just yet...but if we don't resign Diaw - all bets are off.......

 

[planaria]

The maximum contract extension for Boris Diaw would be about $79 million. If Nene gets $60 million to you not think that Boris Diaw is going to be angling for at least $70-75 million? What did Nene average this year... 10 points and 6 rebounds? I believe Boris Diaw average something like 14 points, 6.5 rebounds, and 6.5 assists not to mention he had a very big playoffs.
Joe

I love Boris Diaw skills, but it's not a exactly cience, like 14/6/6 = 80 millions and 10/6 = 60 millions.

Nene is a ridiculously athletic true big man. This make his value go to the heaven, while Diaw just could play center in a system like Phoenix Suns.

Plus, Nene plays much bigger than his numbers. He used to leaded the Nuggets in +/- rate (and he was even a Top 10 in NBA) and his abilities to push bigger centers from the paint or drawn offensive fouls are rare.

Plus2, Nene's 10/6 came from just 24 mpg (from the bench), while Diaw's numbers came from 35 mpg (from the starting five).

Plus3, Nene fighted with injuries during all th 2004/05 season and that made his numbers drop. When he played more than 30 mpg (+/- 17 games) he did something like 17/8.

 

[Joe Mama]

and that my friend, is why you are a more internet firendly message baord user and moderator and I... am not!

Besides, if you get REALLY mad now and expect NOTHING, then when something does happen, you feel that much better about it. It's called destroying expectations after your initial expectations aren't met!

it's funny. I almost always try to follow sports with the idea of keeping expectations low, so I'm pleasantly surprised with anything better. It's the only way I've been able to handle watching the Cardinals since they came to Arizona. I just think there's a difference between keeping expectations low and going overly negative with every single post. I mean I think you must have honestly made an effort to be as negative as you've been since the draft.

I love Boris Diaw skills, but it's not a exactly cience, like 14/6/6 = 80 millions and 10/6 = 60 millions.

Nene is a ridiculously athletic true big man. This make his value go to the heaven, while Diaw just could play center in a system like Phoenix Suns.

Plus, Nene plays much bigger than his numbers. He used to leaded the Nuggets in +/- rate (and he was even a Top 10 in NBA) and his abilities to push bigger centers from the paint or drawn offensive fouls are rare.

Plus2, Nene's 10/6 came from just 24 mpg (from the bench), while Diaw's numbers came from 35 mpg (from the starting five).

Plus3, Nene fighted with injuries during all th 2004/05 season and that made his numbers drop. When he played more than 30 mpg (+/- 17 games) he did something like 17/8.

don't worry. I'm wrong again anyhow.

The maximum extension for Boris Diaw would be 5 years, $79 million. Nene received 6 years, $60 million. That's a bit of a difference. .

I would hope the Phoenix Suns could get Boris Diaw for around $60 million over 5 years or less.

Btw the money these guys are making is absolutely sickening. Stupid owners and agents have really screwed up professional sports. A guy who has proven as much as Nene shouldn't even be making $5 million per season. It's like they are playing with fake money.

Joe

 

[SunsTzu]

The year Nene averaged 32.5mpg he scored 11.9ppg and 6.5rpg and had more TOs than assists. The worst part is that as a true athletic big man he only averaged .54bpg which is about 1/2 of what Diaw got this year. When you don't play a lot of minutes regularly you can be more effective in the minutes you get which is why per minute stats don't mean much. Plus as you said Nene was doing that from the bench facing other bench players.

I hope the Suns can sign Diaw for no more than what Nene makes(and hopefully a little less), but there is no doubt in my mind he is a better player and more deserving of a contract than Nene.

 

[cly2tw]

It's stupid to compare SFs with big men regarding their market value for contracts.

On the market, Diaw would have to play SF/SG exclusively for all the other teams. So, he will be paid what Prince, Manu, Hamilton got paid, not what Dampier, Nene, Ilgauskas etc. got.

 

[Goldfield]

I agree - this is DG's last free-pass year from me. They've had the best possible off-season ANYONE could ever dream of, are going into a new stadium and they'fve had two solid offseasons behind them. If there' snot significant improvment this year, I'm ready to be done with DG.

That being said, I fully expect Edge to blow out his knee or get caught under the moving field and have his leg completely torn out of his socket and for the Cards to fall flat on their face again. No matter what they do, they are still, after all, the Cardinals.

Hijack OVER.

I feel the same way about Edge. Cards have too much bad carma for Edge to make it through the year successfull.

OK back to the Suns.

 

[Goldfield]

Howcome I dont think Diaw can play SG?

He should play SF, but he can play some PF.

Eithway he is gunna command alot of money, everyone with some size does if they show much of anything skill-wise...

 

[George O'Brien]

Boris can play all five positions, which is what makes him so enticing. Right now he can't really dominate in all five.

Early in the season I said the key for Boris was to become stronger. He has the length to be pretty good inside on the defeensive end. Offensively he's a real problem for big defenders. However, he can be fairly easily pushed out of the way in the post, which means the Suns end up having to double even mediocre low post players.

If Boris can improve his strength without losing quickness and his shooting touch (no easy task) so he can play straight up defense, his value would balloon. Right now, he's just a slightly taller version of Shawn Marion when playing defense - without the hops.

Boris can play the weakside, but unless he gets a lot stronger he's out of his depth on the strong side.

 

[F-Dog]

This contract is exactly what I expected. The market for Nene was set last year with Dalembert.

Looks like Kenyon Martin can start packing, if he hasn't started already. K-Mart killed Kiki Vandeweghe, but that's about all he accomplished in Denver, and the team mortgaged their future to acquire him a couple of years ago.



The reason you start negotiating with Diaw right now is because right now is the chance for both sides to display loyalty to each other. Diaw has to know that there's a good chance his numbers will go down playing next to Amare, and the Suns have to know that they need Diaw around for the long term, regardless of what his numbers say.

This is almost exactly the same negotiating position the Suns had with Joe Johnson. If they don't sign Diaw to the $50/6 he's willing to take now (yes, I know they can only sign Diaw for five years), there's going to be trouble next summer, and that trouble might easily go beyond dollars and cents.

 

[jandaman]

well since the Suns can only offer 5 year extension.. I say offer him 45 for 5 years... thats fair.

anything more than 10 Million is over paying him... because we all know he is talented, when it comes to a system where offense is the primary objective.. but to other half court teams.. he wont be putting up triple doubles like he did for the Suns.

45 Million for 5 years is fair... probably 50 Million max.

 

[Joe Mama]

well since the Suns can only offer 5 year extension.. I say offer him 45 for 5 years... thats fair.

anything more than 10 Million is over paying him... because we all know he is talented, when it comes to a system where offense is the primary objective.. but to other half court teams.. he wont be putting up triple doubles like he did for the Suns.

45 Million for 5 years is fair... probably 50 Million max.

no way that gets it done.

Boris Diaw is a 3/4 regardless of where he plays. He can play all five positions, but he is best at 3/4. He will get at least as much as Nene whether it's this summer or next.

Joe

 

[cly2tw]

no way that gets it done.

Boris Diaw is a 3/4 regardless of where he plays. He can play all five positions, but he is best at 3/4. He will get at least as much as Nene whether it's this summer or next.

Joe

No, he is a 4/5 on this Suns' team only. On every other team in the league, he is a 3/2/1 exclusively and will get paid like that.

 

[Joe Mama]

No, he is a 4/5 on this Suns' team only. On every other team in the league, he is a 3/2/1 exclusively and will get paid like that.

Boris Diaw is not a shooting guard or point guard on any team. He CAN play those positions in spot duty, but he is a 3/4. He didn't struggle with Atlanta just because they are a bad team. The bigger problem was that they were playing him out of position at the 1-2. If a team signs him to be the point guard they are making a big mistake.

A player as versatile as Boris Diaw is going to get paid BIG. I agree that there are probably only a handful of teams out there that would put Boris Diaw at the 5 for significant minutes, but there are plenty of teams that will play him at the 3/4.

If Boris Diaw gets paid the same or less than Nene I'll gladly eat my words. I'm pretty sure I won't have to do that though.

Joe

 

[cly2tw]

Boris Diaw is not a shooting guard or point guard on any team. He CAN play those positions in spot duty, but he is a 3/4. He didn't struggle with Atlanta just because they are a bad team. The bigger problem was that they were playing him out of position at the 1-2. If a team signs him to be the point guard they are making a big mistake.

A player as versatile as Boris Diaw is going to get paid BIG. I agree that there are probably only a handful of teams out there that would put Boris Diaw at the 5 for significant minutes, but there are plenty of teams that will play him at the 3/4.

If Boris Diaw gets paid the same or less than Nene I'll gladly eat my words. I'm pretty sure I won't have to do that though.

Joe

For all the playoffs heroics by Diaw this year, Manu was even more so the year before his new contract, when they won a championship. He wasn't even a RFA. The contrast in performance between Boris in Atl and Phx also implies that he might be a sensitive person that really needs a certain comfort environment to perform his best. He knows that, other teams know that. And he is a 3 who could play a bit of everything on the court, which means most teams might not even know how to use him. Anyway, he will be paid like a versatile swingman not like a dominant 4 or 5. I think he will get a contract between the ones by Manu/Prince and those by Parker and Nash.