Never too early for the draft

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by AZCB34
Thanks. I thought the NFL did have some minimum requirements though...like either 21 years old or a junior or something like that.

The ruling would certainly go against the NFL in this case but the vigor of defense would last long past when he was actually drafted.

NFL rule is junior, or 21. Redshirt sophs count as a junior which is how Wilfork would have been draft eligible this year had he wanted to be.

Clarett is 19 now so he'll be 20 on draft day next year, he'll have to challenge the rule to get in, someone's going to do it eventually.

ESPN blew that up last year though basically they asked him would you challenge the rule as a freshman, he said if he thought he'd be a top 5 pick it would be hard to turn down all that money, so they run a story in ESPN the magazine that Clarett says he's going pro!

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Ed B
I am not aware that the NFL has such a rule. If they do, it certainly won't stand up in court. I mean, what's the legal basis for it?

"well, your Honor, see we have this unspoken wink-wink agreement with the NCAA where we give them at least 2 years to make money off the kids and they provide a free minor league system for us.........."

I am not a lawyer, but if the NFL has the rule...as Russ has pointed out they do...they have every right to have it. They should be able to control who "works" for them...JMHO. In some ways it is no different that an employer saying you need a college degree to get a job at a specific company.

If Clarett wants to get a football job, maybe the AFL doesn't have an age requirement.

I expect it to be challenged sometime but the person challenging it would meet the minimum requirements before the case ever ended...what with all the appeals and delays and crowded court dockets.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by AZCB34
I am not a lawyer, but if the NFL has the rule...as Russ has pointed out they do...they have every right to have it. They should be able to control who "works" for them...JMHO. In some ways it is no different that an employer saying you need a college degree to get a job at a specific company.

If Clarett wants to get a football job, maybe the AFL doesn't have an age requirement.

I expect it to be challenged sometime but the person challenging it would meet the minimum requirements before the case ever ended...what with all the appeals and delays and crowded court dockets.

That's the argument, the NFL is not a free work society it's a league of teams that agree to operate under the NFL rules. So if they say nobody under 21 unless he's completed his junior year of college(like Suggs), the teams in the league have to abide by that.

Swann got around it essentially because he had been out of HS for 3 years I think so he basically challenged the rule, "I'm not a college junior but I would be HAD I gone to college."

The difference between the NFL and NBA is frankly I think the NFL rule is actually good for 99.5% of the kids, very few 19-20 year old kids are ready for the NFL pounding.

While most HS to NBA kids aren't ready yet either, basketball is able to work such players in slowly without killing them. You get a Stoudemire now and then who can handle the banging right away but most of the kids take 2-3 years to physically mature(Kobe, McGrady, Jermaine O'Neal) and are able to do so in the NBA. You simply can't do that in the NFL any kid good enough to come out early would have instant expectations of stardom.

I think the NFL should handle it on a case by case basis, yeah I think Clarett could play in the NFL right now for example, but once you open the door you'll never close it.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Ah....but the reason it can be challenged, is because it represents age discrimination. Once a player is 18, they are legally considered an adult.

If a pro team has a rule that one must be 21, it can be challenged in a court of law. And Eric Swann entered the league a year removed from high school at the age of 19.

 

[Ed B]

Originally posted by AZCB34
I am not a lawyer, but if the NFL has the rule...as Russ has pointed out they do...they have every right to have it. They should be able to control who "works" for them...JMHO. In some ways it is no different that an employer saying you need a college degree to get a job at a specific company.

It's <b>much</b> different. It constitutes age discrimination.

There is no rational basis for saying that someone who is 19 or 20 but meets certain criteria (redshirt soph, Eric Swann, etc) can play in the league but a 20 year old true soph can't.

I'm not saying it's a bad rule......I think it's a very good one for the players. But in court, it doesn't have a damn leg to stand on. You can't say "It's OK to be 19 so long as you've gone through our unofficial minor league system but not if you haven't".

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Ed B
It's <b>much</b> different. It constitutes age discrimination.

There is no rational basis for saying that someone who is 19 or 20 but meets certain criteria (redshirt soph, Eric Swann, etc) can play in the league but a 20 year old true soph can't.

I'm not saying it's a bad rule......I think it's a very good one for the players. But in court, it doesn't have a damn leg to stand on. You can't say "It's OK to be 19 so long as you've gone through our unofficial minor league system but not if you haven't".

What if the union agrees to it within the confines of the CBA? Would that matter?

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Ed B
It's <b>much</b> different. It constitutes age discrimination.

There is no rational basis for saying that someone who is 19 or 20 but meets certain criteria (redshirt soph, Eric Swann, etc) can play in the league but a 20 year old true soph can't.

I'm not saying it's a bad rule......I think it's a very good one for the players. But in court, it doesn't have a damn leg to stand on. You can't say "It's OK to be 19 so long as you've gone through our unofficial minor league system but not if you haven't".

So in essence, you agree with me....

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Originally posted by AZCB34
I am not a lawyer, but if the NFL has the rule...as Russ has pointed out they do...they have every right to have it. They should be able to control who "works" for them...JMHO. In some ways it is no different that an employer saying you need a college degree to get a job at a specific company.

If Clarett wants to get a football job, maybe the AFL doesn't have an age requirement.

I expect it to be challenged sometime but the person challenging it would meet the minimum requirements before the case ever ended...what with all the appeals and delays and crowded court dockets.

i AM an attorney, and though my sports law class is now 9 years in my rearview mirror i am certain that they age/"service" minimums negotiated in any collective bargaining agreement will fail in court if pressed. only MLB has a Sherman Act exemption (which is a joke, but it predates federal logic, and thus continues to enjoy this anomaly), the rest of professional sports leagues must still conform to federal anti-monopoly laws and regulations.

if i really got motivated and y'all pressed me, i could dig up my sports law materials and expand on all this. perhaps if clarett does decide to challenge for next draft i'll write an article about it for the front page.

that said, i think vasher's size will hinder his draft status.

benson is not big enough, nor fast enough to go first round, but he is a talented back with excellent field vision.

i question clarett's speed.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
Ah....but the reason it can be challenged, is because it represents age discrimination. Once a player is 18, they are legally considered an adult.

If a pro team has a rule that one must be 21, it can be challenged in a court of law. And Eric Swann entered the league a year removed from high school at the age of 19.

that's not accurate. federal discrimination laws only protect a defined "protected class." the ADEA defines the protected class as individuals age 40+.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
Ah....but the reason it can be challenged, is because it represents age discrimination. Once a player is 18, they are legally considered an adult.

If a pro team has a rule that one must be 21, it can be challenged in a court of law. And Eric Swann entered the league a year removed from high school at the age of 19.

It's been too long for me to remember but i have the '94 media guide on my desk(lucky). It says Swann's first year was '91, he was born August 16. 1970 so he was 20 when drafted and turned 21 before his rookie year started.

He played in a North Carolina HS all star game in '88 so that implies 89 would have been his freshman year, 90 his soph and '91 his junior year.

So I think neither of us is right he was not 3 years out of HS as I said he was 2 years out of HS. I guess he did have to challenge the rule I didn't recall him doing it but he must have.

FYI just for fun, Swann on March 5 1991 at 302 pounds ran a 4.8 40 in a special workout in front of 70 scouts! So Swann ran faster than Suggs too (-:

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Originally posted by AZCB34
What if the union agrees to it within the confines of the CBA? Would that matter?

the union HAS agreed to it in the cba, but it doesn't matter, the rule will still likely fail when challenged for the reasons i stated previously.

 

[Russ Smith]

Sorry forgot to add he apparently spent one year working for $5 an hour doing odd jobs, and then another year playing for the Bay State titans.

I remember the year we took him, Mike Jones was our 2nd pick and had Swann qualified for NC State, he would have been a teammate of Jones.Swann had a 2.7 GPA but didn't get the SAT score and rather than sit out a year he got a job and enrolled in some technical college.

Then he played with the semi pro Titans coached by Sugar Bear Hamilton.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by PHXSPORTS4LIFE
the union HAS agreed to it in the cba, but it doesn't matter, the rule will still likely fail when challenged for the reasons i stated previously.

Forgive my ignorance, but why would it fail? I am not sure I understood why you said it will?

 

[ChiCard]

Originally posted by PHXSPORTS4LIFE
i AM an attorney, and though my sports law class is now 9 years in my rearview mirror i am certain that they age/"service" minimums negotiated in any collective bargaining agreement will fail in court if pressed. only MLB has a Sherman Act exemption (which is a joke, but it predates federal logic, and thus continues to enjoy this anomaly), the rest of professional sports leagues must still conform to federal anti-monopoly laws and regulations.

if i really got motivated and y'all pressed me, i could dig up my sports law materials and expand on all this. perhaps if clarett does decide to challenge for next draft i'll write an article about it for the front page.

that said, i think vasher's size will hinder his draft status.

benson is not big enough, nor fast enough to go first round, but he is a talented back with excellent field vision.

i question clarett's speed.

I agree with my brothet before the BAR. If you remember when Clarett first broached the idea of entering the draft, it was couched in terms of a law suit to overturn this principle. In my opinion a challenge to this rule will result in it's abandonment by the NFL. I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, I'm only suggesting it won't survive a challenge.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by PHXSPORTS4LIFE
that's not accurate. federal discrimination laws only protect a defined "protected class." the ADEA defines the protected class as individuals age 40+.

Doh! You are right!

 

[Russ Smith]

Krang, to correct myself again on Swann. he played in a HS allstar game in '88. Which of course means he would have started his NC State career in 88 as well, so 88, 89, 90 with his junior year ending in '91 means he would have been a college junior had he gone to college.

So I was sort of right without really knowing it.

He still probably had to challenge the rule since he didn't play college football(he did attend a technical college briefly before quitting to play minor league football).

Still an amazing story, I know it didn't turn out the way we all hoped but Eric Swann at his best was as good a DT as there was in the NFL in the 90's. Too bad his knees got in the way and then later on his own attitude.

Remarkably he's going to turn 33 this August he's still younger than some NFL linemen.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
Krang, to correct myself again on Swann. he played in a HS allstar game in '88. Which of course means he would have started his NC State career in 88 as well, so 88, 89, 90 with his junior year ending in '91 means he would have been a college junior had he gone to college.

So I was sort of right without really knowing it.

He still probably had to challenge the rule since he didn't play college football(he did attend a technical college briefly before quitting to play minor league football).

Still an amazing story, I know it didn't turn out the way we all hoped but Eric Swann at his best was as good a DT as there was in the NFL in the 90's. Too bad his knees got in the way and then later on his own attitude.

Remarkably he's going to turn 33 this August he's still younger than some NFL linemen.

It might be a stretch, but I would say Swann at his peak (and when healthy) was one of the better tackles the league has ever seen. He was almost unreal. 320 running around a 4.9 or so...
I actually really miss having him.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
It might be a stretch, but I would say Swann at his peak (and when healthy) was one of the better tackles the league has ever seen. He was almost unreal. 320 running around a 4.9 or so...
I actually really miss having him.

I don't think you were on the board then but I took a lot of heat on 2 different boards(precursors to this great board) for defending Swann over the years.

Given the nature of his knee problems I felt the Erica stuff was unfair, and I felt the Cards treated Swann like a "piece of meat" for a lot of his time here. That said, at the end Swann sort of shot himself in the foot with the "I'm completely healthy" comments followed by filing a grievance saying we cut him when he was injured. The way he went out sort of ruined it, most Card fans remember Swann as a villian for the last 2-3 years which is a shame but to a large extent Eric's fault.

Buddy Ryan said very early in his first year in Arizona he felt Swann could be a HOF player, he certainly had the talent but his knees ruined his career.

302 pounds, 20 years old running a 4.8 40, that's essentially what got Robertson up to #4 this year but Swann is 3-4 inches taller than Robertson and probably stronger too.

Amazing talent but with our luck the way his career turned out was probably inevitable.

Still drives me nuts to think we had Swann, Smith, Wads and Rice on the same DL and never reaped the benefits because of all the injuries.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Clarett wont' challenge the rule.Only because it will tied up in court longer than would be worth it to him.He'll alreday be draft elgible by time any ruling and appeals are made so it won't happen.He was held out of the spring game because his shoulder still isn't up to strength.If i remember the nmbers right,he was benching about 410(not 100% sure about these numbers but it's close) prior to the injury and now is back up to 340.So,he is still a ways away.Besides why would the Cards draft him?They already have enough linebackers.Gamble will be an absolute stud in the NFL.He'll probably be the best athlete to come out.He shut down Andre Johnson after playing CB for a total of about 6 games.Wil Smith surprised everybody by coming back this year.A guy to watch out for is the other DE,Darion Scott.He made all the big plays and big hits last year.

 

[Ed B]

Well I'll "plead guilty" in front of the attorneys here (rimshot!) but I <b>do</b> know for a fact that the American Basketball Association took the NBA/NCAA to court over their age/draft policy in 1969 and won the right to sign Spencer Haywood as a college freshman, age 19.

The NBA rule, made in accordance with the NCAA, was that a player had to have 4 years at college to become draft eligible. It fell in court like a domino in a tornado. The court ruled that the NCAA had no right to deny Hayward the ability to earn money and that there was no compelling argument against letting the ABA employ him.

I mean, we're not talking about child labor laws here.....once someone is 18 years old and legally able to enter into a contract, what compelling argument can the NFL make as to why they arbitrarily choose to exclude a player?

 

[Mr. Boldin]

DJ Shockley.. he could be a great qb, just needs to stay in college and become more consistant.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Cbus cardsfan
Clarett wont' challenge the rule.Only because it will tied up in court longer than would be worth it to him.He'll alreday be draft elgible by time any ruling and appeals are made so it won't happen.He was held out of the spring game because his shoulder still isn't up to strength.If i remember the nmbers right,he was benching about 410(not 100% sure about these numbers but it's close) prior to the injury and now is back up to 340.So,he is still a ways away.Besides why would the Cards draft him?They already have enough linebackers.Gamble will be an absolute stud in the NFL.He'll probably be the best athlete to come out.He shut down Andre Johnson after playing CB for a total of about 6 games.Wil Smith surprised everybody by coming back this year.A guy to watch out for is the other DE,Darion Scott.He made all the big plays and big hits last year.

agree about Gamble he could be a real high pick the sky is the limit on him.Same with Marlin Jackson at Michigan which is why I say Vasher won't be the first CB picked, he's listed at 5'10" and probably isn't that tall, Gamble and Jackson are much taller 3-4 inches and they're both very fast.

Gamble is the better athlete, Jackson the more seasoned player.

I assume you're joking about Clarett at LB because he said he wanted to play both ways?

I love the kid I can't recall too many kids that size having his feel for hitting the hole, type of kid who will score 15 TD's a season in the NFL if used right because of his ability to find any small opening and hit it hard.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
I don't think you were on the board then but I took a lot of heat on 2 different boards(precursors to this great board) for defending Swann over the years.

Given the nature of his knee problems I felt the Erica stuff was unfair, and I felt the Cards treated Swann like a "piece of meat" for a lot of his time here. That said, at the end Swann sort of shot himself in the foot with the "I'm completely healthy" comments followed by filing a grievance saying we cut him when he was injured. The way he went out sort of ruined it, most Card fans remember Swann as a villian for the last 2-3 years which is a shame but to a large extent Eric's fault.

Buddy Ryan said very early in his first year in Arizona he felt Swann could be a HOF player, he certainly had the talent but his knees ruined his career.

302 pounds, 20 years old running a 4.8 40, that's essentially what got Robertson up to #4 this year but Swann is 3-4 inches taller than Robertson and probably stronger too.

Amazing talent but with our luck the way his career turned out was probably inevitable.

Still drives me nuts to think we had Swann, Smith, Wads and Rice on the same DL and never reaped the benefits because of all the injuries.

No I wasn't around then....and I would've helped you defend him.

He was like he said "like a pop can. Once used up, you just throw it away". If injuries hadn't ruined him, he most definitely would have been a HOFer.

Bad luck....God this team has had a lot of it.

 

[ChiCard]

Actually the biggest reason behind such a policy is the divergence of opinions between the various state's as to when juveniles can disavow contracts. In some state's it's 16, some 18, some 19.