New lineup

[leclerc]

It's a week or more old, but it's still relevant.

I really like Coach Gentry's new lineup.

Markieff did great in his first game and has good chemistry with The Polish Hammer. Dragon plays well with Shannon. Beasley just needs to keep working at it.

The bench was terrific the first game (I think it was the Blazers) with Duds and Scola calming it down, Bassy and PJ Tucker playing great d and Jerm doing great inside, scoring wise. Two great lineups I think. Hope they stay with this.

Also would like to see Wesley Johson and the rook get some court time with trash minutes, or resting some of the key backups at the end of games.

I'm surprised we're this good. Looks like another 8th seed with a first round exit, or just missing it and snatching up that mediocre twin brother mid teen pick. Good times!

Or do we have some picks coming our way next summer?

 

[Mainstreet]

Off the bench Tucker and to a lesser extent Telfair, have not impacted the games as they have earlier in the season. This is where the Suns were getting some spark from the bench especially on defense plus some scoring. Tucker has been my biggest disappointment of late.

 

[Griffin]

The first game with the new lineup worked out well, but ever since it's been just as bad as the old lineup, imo. If the Suns don't fall behind with the starters, they fall behind with the bench, or some combination of. Either way, they continue to dig holes. When you have a weak roster, it doesn't really matter how you shuffle it. The results will be the same.

The Suns enjoyed a very weak schedule so far, and had a few come-from-behind victories where one or two guys went off. But I don't believe they will come anywhere near a playoff spot if things continue as they are.

Btw, Shannon Brown's numbers this season:

as reserve (11 games): 13.4 ppg on 41.4% fg, 34.3% 3pt fg in 22 mpg
as starter (6 games): 8.7 ppg on 39.6% fg, 31.3% 3pt fg in 25 mpg

 

[Mainstreet]

The first game with the new lineup worked out well, but ever since it's been just as bad as the old lineup, imo. If the Suns don't fall behind with the starters, they fall behind with the bench, or some combination of. Either way, they continue to dig holes. When you have a weak roster, it doesn't really matter how you shuffle it. The results will be the same.

The Suns enjoyed a very weak schedule so far, and had a few come-from-behind victories where one or two guys went off. But I don't believe they will come anywhere near a playoff spot if things continue as they are.

Btw, Shannon Brown's numbers this season:

as reserve (11 games): 13.4 ppg on 41.4% fg, 34.3% 3pt fg in 22 mpg
as starter (6 games): 8.7 ppg on 39.6% fg, 31.3% 3pt fg in 25 mpg

I think if the Suns had one go-to scorer (or shooter), they might be competitive. Obviously the Suns lack this.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It's a week or more old, but it's still relevant.

I really like Coach Gentry's new lineup.

Markieff did great in his first game and has good chemistry with The Polish Hammer. Dragon plays well with Shannon. Beasley just needs to keep working at it.

The bench was terrific the first game (I think it was the Blazers) with Duds and Scola calming it down, Bassy and PJ Tucker playing great d and Jerm doing great inside, scoring wise. Two great lineups I think. Hope they stay with this.

Also would like to see Wesley Johson and the rook get some court time with trash minutes, or resting some of the key backups at the end of games.

I'm surprised we're this good. Looks like another 8th seed with a first round exit, or just missing it and snatching up that mediocre twin brother mid teen pick. Good times!

Or do we have some picks coming our way next summer?

We're not "this good", not really. We've played an incredibly weak schedule. Unless things change (give up on the Beasley experiment, limit Scola's minutes, find a starting caliber 2 guard so Brown can return to 6th man) this team has already enjoyed it's best stretch of basketball. It's all downhill from here and there's no way we'll be in the hunt for a playoff spot. We have close to the talent level necessary to be in the vicinity of the 8th spot but I think Gentry's hands are tied as to how he uses them.

Dragic is fun to watch but as Gortat continues to lose confidence we become more and more a 1 man team. A couple of weeks ago I thought we had 2 good starters, 1 strong bench player and a half dozen decent bench players. Now, we're down to 1 good starter, 1 decent starter, and a bunch of decent bench players. With 2 good starters you can compete with most teams but with 1 good starter you're in a lot of trouble in this league. We're in a lot of trouble.

Steve

 

[BC867]

Without a go-to player, Gentry deserves credit for having the Suns play over their head.

We hung in there against the Knicks with an interesting combination who played right 'til the end in the 4th quarter.

PG--Telfair, not Dragic
SG--Brown (now the starter, of course)
SF--Dudley (our backup SG)
PF--Tucker, over Morris and Scola
C---Gortat (O'Neal did not play, probably due to injury)

They mounted a comeback and hung in there with the Knicks who are undefeated at home andhave the 5th best W-L record in the league.

As EJ said, if the Suns had played as well earlier in the game as they did in the 4th quarter, they would have had a chance.

 

[Sonec]

The first game with the new lineup worked out well, but ever since it's been just as bad as the old lineup, imo. If the Suns don't fall behind with the starters, they fall behind with the bench, or some combination of. Either way, they continue to dig holes. When you have a weak roster, it doesn't really matter how you shuffle it. The results will be the same.

The Suns enjoyed a very weak schedule so far, and had a few come-from-behind victories where one or two guys went off. But I don't believe they will come anywhere near a playoff spot if things continue as they are.

Btw, Shannon Brown's numbers this season:

as reserve (11 games): 13.4 ppg on 41.4% fg, 34.3% 3pt fg in 22 mpg
as starter (6 games): 8.7 ppg on 39.6% fg, 31.3% 3pt fg in 25 mpg

I agree with this completely Griff, although we have to take a notice that this team is young and with some quality additions in few years, who knows. It usually take time to grow as a unit. You can shuffle the players as much as you want, results will be the same on the long run, but at the same time some players will eventually emerge as better than the others, I think these are safe, Dragic over Telfair (sorry BC), Gortat over O'Neill(for now), Dudley over Brown (JD is more as useful team player, great scorer too), simple as that and you definitely want your bench to play good as well, with Brown, Telfair or Marshall, O'Neill, Johnson I think we have that.
They just need time and maybe a new coach too eventually.
And yes Brown, he is simply better of the bench no doubt about that, it was obvious even without looking at these stats, but there you go.

 

[BC867]

Dragic over Telfair (sorry BC)

Hey now. I wasn't advocating Telfair over Dragic. Goran has been the most valuable player on the team. Just as I certainly wasn't advocating Tucker as our closing Power Forward.

Although a team whose Point Guard is also their leading scorer is in trouble. But that is because none of the others has been a dependable go-to scorer.

I was analyzing the closing lineup that Gentry used in one game when I said:

Without a go-to player, Gentry deserves credit for having the Suns play over their head.

We hung in there against the Knicks with an interesting combination who played right 'til the end in the 4th quarter.

PG--Telfair, not Dragic
SG--Brown (now the starter, of course)
SF--Dudley (our backup SG)
PF--Tucker, over Morris and Scola
C---Gortat (O'Neal did not play, probably due to injury)

They mounted a comeback and hung in there with the Knicks who are undefeated at home and have the 5th best W-L record in the league.

My feeling is that Gentry is a skilled coach who is going to take the rap for the Front Office providing him with a dysfunctional team.

 

[Phrazbit]

My radically different lineup look if the team wanted to be as competitive as possible would look something like:

Starters:
Telfair/Dragic/Tucker/Morris/Gortat
Bench:
Marshall/Brown/Dudley/Scola/O'Neal

But essentially only going 9 deep with Marshall playing sparingly while Telfair and Dragic split the majority of PG minutes with Brown and Dudley playing big minutes off the bench.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'd have two main lineups. Against all the beatable teams I'd start Dragic, Telfair, Dudley, Tucker and Gortat. My bench would consist of Brown, just Brown. Well, before the game I'd ask Morris if he felt like playing basketball tonight and if gave us an enthusiastic yes then I'd start him and move Tucker to the bench. I'd play that 6 or 7 man rotation until these guys dropped from exhaustion and then I'd tell them to man up and throw their butts back out there.

Against the upper echelon teams I'd go with a different lineup. I'd start Marshall, Johnson, Beasley, Scola and Zeller and I'd use Morris plus Jermaine's replacement for their bench. Jermaine would be elsewhere playing for the contending team that gave us a bench player and a 1st round pick in return.

These two lineups would allow us to be competitive against the teams we might actually beat and it gives us Scola haters someone to blame for all those blowout losses we'll accumulate against the good teams. The only bad thing about doing it this way is we will probably finish with a much better record than we will using our current plan.

Steve

 

[gordon]

Dragic is fun to watch but as Gortat continues to lose confidence we become more and more a 1 man team.

Goran has been the most valuable player on the team.

Dragic is not all that great. He hurts us on defense almost as much as Beasley. He gambles way to often for a steal and gets blown by every time his man wants to, as Goran gets lost on almost every damn screen. Every PG in the league, from Jrue to Vasquez, has a field day against Dragic.

On offense he's very selfish. On PNR he ignores the roll man no matter how open he is and just turns the corner and attacks the rim. He doesn't create easy baskets for his teammates. He has as many assist leading to FG at rim as assist leading to FG from 16-23 feet. It's not a coincidence that most Suns play better with Telfair on the court.

Assists leading to FG at rim:

Dragic - 2.1 in 32 mpg
Telfair - 1.4 in 18 mpg
Lin - 3.2
Vasquez - 3.8
Conley - 2.5
Nelson - 2.3


Assists leading to FG from 16-23 feet:

Dragic - 2.1
Telfair - 0.6
Lin - 0.8
Vasquez - 1.6
Conley - 1.9
Nelson - 1.2

 

[95pro]

Goran gets blown by every time???

stopped reading there, didn't read the rest of your post cause he's not a liability on D as much as scola or beasley. To say that much, putting him and beasley in the same is boat, is something else.

 

[gordon]

Goran gets blown by every time???

stopped reading there, didn't read the rest of your post cause he's not a liability on D as much as scola or beasley. To say that much, putting him and beasley in the same is boat, is something else.

Then watch him closely on defense next few games and you will know what I'm talking about. For some reason (steals?) he has a reputation as a good defender but in reality he's a liability on that end of the court.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Dragic is not all that great. He hurts us on defense almost as much as Beasley. He gambles way to often for a steal and gets blown by every time his man wants to, as Goran gets lost on almost every damn screen. Every PG in the league, from Jrue to Vasquez, has a field day against Dragic.

On offense he's very selfish. On PNR he ignores the roll man no matter how open he is and just turns the corner and attacks the rim. He doesn't create easy baskets for his teammates. He has as many assist leading to FG at rim as assist leading to FG from 16-23 feet. It's not a coincidence that most Suns play better with Telfair on the court.

Assists leading to FG at rim:

Dragic - 2.1 in 32 mpg
Telfair - 1.4 in 18 mpg
Lin - 3.2
Vasquez - 3.8
Conley - 2.5
Nelson - 2.3


Assists leading to FG from 16-23 feet:

Dragic - 2.1
Telfair - 0.6
Lin - 0.8
Vasquez - 1.6
Conley - 1.9
Nelson - 1.2

Right now, Goran's best PNR partner can't seem to finish - I don't see how that's on Dragic. Anyway, you really can't compare those kind of stats across teams. Give Dragic a great player to pick and roll with and then compare him to other guards in the league. I don't think the guy is anywhere near selfish enough with this team. We lack players that can create their own shots and we lack players that can hit open jumpers - not a good combination for any ballhandler to face.

Steve

 

[gordon]

Right now, Goran's best PNR partner can't seem to finish - I don't see how that's on Dragic.

Dragic doesn't even look in Gortat's direction when they run PNR, he just looks for his own shot and when he tries to pass he can't execute a simple bounce pass or a lob (e.g. 1st quarter against the Knicks).

Gortat's finishing isn't that bad as people make it to be. His FG% at rim (68.7%) is about the same as Griffin's (67.1%) or Jefferson's (67.6%). % of blocked shots isn't that big either compared to other big men: Gortat (7.1%), Griffin (7.6%), Jefferson (6.9%), Howard (9.4%).

PPP on PNR:

Gortat 2010/11 (ORL) - 1.32
Gortat 2010/11 (PHX) - 1.23
Gortat 2011/12 (PHX) - 1.22
Gortat 2012/13 (PHX) - 1.02

Griffin - 0.83
Jefferson - 1.18
Howard - 0.93
Aldridge - 0.97
Cousins - 0.71
Bosh - 1.21

Anyway, you really can't compare those kind of stats across teams. Give Dragic a great player to pick and roll with and then compare him to other guards in the league.

Dragic has a great pick and roll big, he just can't utilize him properly.

 

[95pro]

when your polish hammer doesn't hammer the ball in, or is a no show on some games, then the problem isn't Dragic. when your'e shooting guards can't drain open shots, or our "go-to" scorer in beasley can't score efficiently then its not on Dragic.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Dragic has a great pick and roll big, he just can't utilize him properly.

I don't know what to tell you. I was one of Gortat's biggest supporters here but even at his best and even with Nash working with him he was never a great pick and roll player and he's much worse this year. He has too much trouble catching the ball and he gets little to no lift when he does his typical soft step to the hole. The guy gets blocked way too often because he's too slow when he elevates and he doesn't get up very high. Beasley alone would have 15 more assists this season if Gortat was even just decent as a PNR big.

Steve

 

[95pro]

I don't know what to tell you. I was one of Gortat's biggest supporters here but even at his best and even with Nash working with him he was never a great pick and roll player and he's much worse this year. He has too much trouble catching the ball and he gets little to no lift when he does his typical soft step to the hole. The guy gets blocked way too often because he's too slow when he elevates and he doesn't get up very high. Beasley alone would have 15 more assists this season if Gortat was even just decent as a PNR big.

Steve

yeah i guess when you think about it, his arms are short for his height. or i should say his arms aren't' long like other bigs.
and then he's not as explosive as other bigs out there too.

i agree in that he is too soft for a guy his size. what happened to this guy, he had some big dunks in the past. maybe just fatigue from playing so much. I'm not sure thats a valid excuse anymore tho.

 

[Sonec]

when your polish hammer doesn't hammer the ball in, or is a no show on some games, then the problem isn't Dragic. when your'e shooting guards can't drain open shots, or our "go-to" scorer in beasley can't score efficiently then its not on Dragic.

exactly my thoughts and when Brown goes solo can't blame Dragič either or anyone else as well

 

[slinslin]

Dragic already does a good job utilizing Gortat, otherwise Gortat's stats would have suffered a lot more from losing Nash.

That being said Dragic is far from a special player. He is solid starting PG nothing more nothing less, same deal as Gortat.

 

[Absolute Zero]

Good read on Azcentral.com this morning, looks like Gentry is going to sit Beasley.

I think that is a good move, let him come off the bench and fight for his minutes. Start Tucker, or even Wes Johnson, but not Dudley please.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Good read on Azcentral.com this morning, looks like Gentry is going to sit Beasley.

I think that is a good move, let him come off the bench and fight for his minutes. Start Tucker, or even Wes Johnson, but not Dudley please.

I think the big problem with starting Duds earlier was the move to shooting guard. I wouldn't mind seeing what a lineup of Dragic, Brown, Dudley, Morris and Gortat could do on a regular basis. I still believe Brown is better coming off the bench but our options appear limited right now and I don't think it would be a good idea to start the two point guards together.

Steve

 

[BC867]

I think the big problem with starting Duds earlier was the move to shooting guard. I wouldn't mind seeing what a lineup of Dragic, Brown, Dudley, Morris and Gortat could do on a regular basis. I still believe Brown is better coming off the bench but our options appear limited right now and I don't think it would be a good idea to start the two point guards together.

Steve

I would think that Tucker's defense, as well as the surprise ability to score that he had shown, would fit in better with the starting unit. The problem is that he is now injured

 

[AzStevenCal]

I would think that Tucker's defense, as well as the surprise ability to score that he had shown, would fit in better with the starting unit. The problem is that he is now injured

I'd be fine with Tucker starting except his energy seems to propel the 2nd unit. I've mentioned before that I'd like to see him replace Brown in the starting lineup.

I do wish Tucker could learn to not step out of bounds when he gets the ball out by the three. He does it often although he's not the only one on this team. Speaking of learning how to do something, it would also be nice if the coaches could teach this group how to run a fast break. Last night it was embarrassing the difference between our fast breaks (regardless of who was running it) and the ones Dallas ran.

Steve

 

[slinslin]

Maybe Gentry does need to go, this team obviously is not going anywhere and they need to use this season to develop players like Beasley and Marshall for the future, Gentry does the opposite.