Newest Sun

[Yuma]

Out of all the guys left on the board, I thought Hunter would be as good as any. The key is we did not overpay the guy. This gives us flexibility if we do make a mid season trade. I like the upside and shot blocking ability. His rebounding and weight have me a little worried. If he was perfect, though, we certainly wouldn't have had a shot at signing him! I think he fits in well as a running center. Hopefully D'Antoni will let him sneak upcourt for easy buckets ala Parrish in Boston back in the day, or any Euro Big Man playing against the US basketball team at the Olympics!

 

[sly fly]

Shooting is an acquired skill, plain and simple. It's about good technique and lots of repetition. I suppose you could argue someone born with poor hand-eye coordination could never learn, but that is clearly not the case with Kidd. Shooting has just never been a huge priority for him, otherwise he'd have a deadly mid-range jumper.

Oooohh. Got to differ with ya there, Gad.

Yes, guys can become good shooters with tons of practice. You can "acquire" the skill to become a decent shooter if left alone or not under any pressure (physical and mental).

Pure shooters are born. You either have it or you don't. There is much more to shooting than technique and repetition. A lot of it's mental.

Pure shooters are unfazed. Pure shooters will stick a dagger in you over and over. Pure shooters have "it", and there arn't too many.

Jason Kidd is not a pure shooter. No matter how many shots he takes in practice.

Eddie Johnson is a pure shooter. He looked to the rim as soon as he stepped in the gym.

I'm probably not articulating it well enough, but this "science" is hard to explain unless you experience it.

 

[Gaddabout]

Pure shooters are born. You either have it or you don't. There is much more to shooting than technique and repetition. A lot of it's mental.

OK, I'll run with this argument and add there is so much more to being a shooter in the NBA that has nothing to do with how many uncontested bombs you can hit in warmups.

Can you create your own shot? Can you shoot off the dribble? Which hand? Can you shoot over someone taller? How fast can you get off your shot without losing accuracy? Can you hit a shot when your team needs it most?

No doubt there's a lot more than just technique, but you can still learn this stuff. Jeff Hornacek and Chris Mullin are two players that come to mind.

Horny grew up a coach's son and earned his way into a scholarship at Iowa State because he had a great handle as a 6-4 guard. But Horny didn't learn how to shoot until his third year in the NBA. He spent many hours with his left hand taped up (he discovered it was affecting the rotation of his ball). In the process, he developed a mid-range game, a long-range game, and perfected a little runner that turned him into one of the premier offensive guards in the game. For a guy that didn't know how to shoot coming into the NBA, I believe he led the league in FG percentage for guards more than a few times before retiring.

Mullin had some skill as a rookie, but it was the years of off-season working out with taller defenders that turned him into one of the best swingmen in the game. He was taller than most, but still he'd work out with his buddies, giving them instruction to not let him go inside. He learned how to work for position and create his own shot, which became decidedly deadly. I believe he learned how to shoot with both hands (IIRC).

I'm not saying Kidd will ever be able to shoot like those guys, but the bottom line is he's below mediocre for a point guard of his relative ability and it's a damn shame. He could shoot so much better. It's just a matter of how much he cares about improving that element of his game. He will never be one of the all-time greats in my mind because of it.

 

[George O'Brien]

One of the problems with this discussion is defining a "pure shooter". To me, a pure shooter is someone who hits a very high percentage of shots when open. Many pure shooters are not that great at creating their own shots, which is why teams have to run screens and picks to get their shooters open (look at Reggie Miller for a great example). Most pure shooters are not great scorers because they only shoot when they are open.

I agree completely that this is more than playing horse. Pure shooters have instant recognition as to when they are open and usually have a quick release to capitalize on it. Successful pure shooters usually learn to move without the ball and play with teams that get them the ball in positions where they are effective.

Most great scorers get a substantial number of points by hitting contested shots. They miss a lot more shots than pure shooters, but are harder to defend. The paradox of many scorers is that while they can make very difficult shots, they aren't substantially better when wide open. My theory is that subconsiously change their shooting motion when they are wide open and it throws them off.

My feeling is that most players could improve their shooting through better coaching on mechanics (consistent motion), lots of repetition, and more shooting practice in game conditions (having guys running at them, shooting with a shot clock running down, etc.)

At the same time, I don't get the feeling that coaches really work on running plays that get shooters open. Seattle had one of the best pure shooters in the NBA in Brent Barry, but in the last two seasons he scored 10.3 ppg in 2002-03 (40.3% for three) and 10.8 ppg in 2003-04 (45.2% for three). In 2003-04, Barry had only the fifth highest team scoring average, but was a vastly better outside shooter. It looks like McMillan never bothered to run plays for Barry.

Rashard Lewis of the Sonics averaged 17.8 ppg on 43.5% shooting and 37.6% for three compared to Barry shooting 50.4% and 45.2% for three getting only 10.8 ppg. Lewis hit 145 three pointers compared to Barry's 114 but took 134 more three point shots. What kind of strategy is that?

 

[BC867]

I think of Magic Johnson, a 6'9" Point Guard who could do it all . . . except shoot.

So he found what was right for him -- an effective shot-put style -- and became a dependable outside (and 3-point) shooter.

I guess it's the difference between being driven to succeed (Johnson) and pre-occupied (Kidd).

 

[George O'Brien]

I think of Magic Johnson, a 6'9" Point Guard who could do it all . . . except shoot.

So he found what was right for him -- an effective shot-put style -- and became a dependable outside (and 3-point) shooter.

I guess it's the difference between being driven to succeed (Johnson) and pre-occupied (Kidd).

James Worthy was another Laker who was not much of a shooter when he came up but was deadly late in his career. Casey Jacobsen has an explanation:

Beil's spiel
by Larry Beil, Yahoo! Sports

Matt Bullard, where are you when your country needs you? And you too, Fred Hoiberg. Reggie Miller – Uncle Sam wants you! And so does coach Larry Brown, because nobody on Team USA can make a jump shot. At this point, Jason Kapono or Dana Barros would be worth their weight in baklava.

We could spend lots of time and space lamenting the decisions made by Shaquille O'Neal, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen to pass on the Summer Olympics in Greece. Likewise, we could easily rip USA Basketball officials for selecting a team better suited for selling sneakers than making jumpers. But that's all been said and done.

I figure if we're gonna talk shooting – or lack thereof – let's talk to a shooter.

Casey Jacobsen of the Phoenix Suns can fall out of bed and hit threes. He's making millions in the NBA because he can do something that most of the league can't – SHOOT. A former sniper at Stanford, Jacobsen shot 42 percent from downtown last season, good enough for ninth in the NBA. He's played alongside Stephon Marbury and Shawn Marion in Phoenix and doesn't believe the U.S. squad is simply the gang that can't shoot straight.

"These players are capable of shooting," says Jacobsen, "especially from the international line, 20-feet 6-inches. But when you start missing, then it becomes mental. Against the zone, they're daring you to shoot. You'd rather have a hand in your face than be standing there wide open."

As has become woefully apparent, Jacobsen does not believe a group of all-stars or great athletes gives you the best chance of capturing gold. He'd like to see a couple of specialists, like rebounding machine Ben Wallace and tenacious defender Ron Artest, on Team USA. The presence of the hot-tempered Artest would dramatically increase the chances of an international incident, but "that's better than the international incident that occurred when we played Puerto Rico," says Jacobsen, recalling the American's 92-73 loss.

With each game, the U.S. shooting statistics become more gruesome. We're talking William Hung singing bad, Gigli the movie bad, Enron the investment bad. We're talking 10 of 62 from 3-point range in three Olympic games, an as-bad-as-you-wanna-be 16 percent.

Not one to criticize his comrades, Jacobsen believes the lost art of shooting is understandable, a natural part of hoops evolution. There are so many incredible athletes who can run, jump, get into the lane and dunk, shooting has been ignored.

"If I don't live on a lake, then why do I need a boat?" asks Jacobsen.

Now the question is whether anybody on Team USA can throw it in the sea in Greece.

 

[Lars the Red]

Shooting is an acquired skill, plain and simple. It's about good technique and lots of repetition. I suppose you could argue someone born with poor hand-eye coordination could never learn, but that is clearly not the case with Kidd. Shooting has just never been a huge priority for him, otherwise he'd have a deadly mid-range jumper.

Remember, I'm the guy that preaches fundabmentals, but your not right about shooting being acquired, at least not completely. Every player can improve their shooting with practice and coaching, but not everyone, no matter how much they practice will have a good stroke.

Some guys have always had a great, smooth stroke. Others can be decent shooters, but they never have what can be called a smooth, natural stroke. Jason's has always been ugly. Magic's was ugly. Marion's. Then look at guys like Peja, or Bird, or Allen. Not everyone has the the muscle coordination, eye hand coordination, and natural feel for shooting. Everyone can get better, but not everyone is going to be a good shooter no matter how much they practice.

 

[Gaddabout]

Some guys have always had a great, smooth stroke. Others can be decent shooters, but they never have what can be called a smooth, natural stroke. Jason's has always been ugly. Magic's was ugly. Marion's. Then look at guys like Peja, or Bird, or Allen. Not everyone has the the muscle coordination, eye hand coordination, and natural feel for shooting. Everyone can get better, but not everyone is going to be a good shooter no matter how much they practice.

I think you're proving my point. We're not asking players to learn how to shoot like Peja, and certainly not Bird. Not everyone can grow up with a textbook jump shot like Walter Davis. We're merely asking for some kind of proficiency that should be the distinct line of demarcation for an NBA player and a CBA player.

The two players you compared Kidd to, Magic and Marion, were/are pretty accurate as their careers developed, not matter how ugly their technique was/is. You at least had/have to respect them as a defender. If Kidd could hit at 15-foot baseline J like Marion, I wouldn't be involved in this debate. Kidd's not even close. Last year Kidd shot 38 percent from the field. Ten years ago, guards would've been shamed for shooting anything less than 45 percent; a guard shooting 45 percent would've been someone who either shot far too much or needed a lot of work on his J. Kidd is a guy that shoots 80+ percent from the line. This is not a player with a lack of coordination or understanding of shot mechanics. In the conference finals he shot 22 percent, including 14 percent (!!!) from behind the arc on 34 attempts.

I do not understand how anyone can apologize for the poor shooting we witness in the NBA. If Mark West, one of the all-time bricklayers early in his career, can develop range out to 12 feet, a flexible, coordinated *guard* could at least move that range of proficiency out to 16 or 18 feet.

 

[Lars the Red]

I do not understand how anyone can apologize for the poor shooting we witness in the NBA. If Mark West, one of the all-time bricklayers early in his career, can develop range out to 12 feet, a flexible, coordinated *guard* could at least move that range of proficiency out to 16 or 18 feet.

On this, we completely agree. Just for fun, think about some of the teams of yesteryear and tell me who do you leave open?

NY Knickerbockers

-Reed
-DeBuescher(sp)
-Bradley
-Monroe
-Frazier

Who do we dare to beat us? Monroe, probably, but that still isn't a great feeling.

The game is so different and unfortunately for the fans, it really isn't for the better. Sure we get to see some amazing individual plays, but overall the games are really hard to watch.

 

[BC867]

Just for fun, think about some of the teams of yesteryear and tell me who do you leave open?

NY Knickerbockers

-Reed
-DeBuescher(sp)
-Bradley
-Monroe
-Frazier

Who do we dare to beat us? Monroe, probably, but that still isn't a great feeling.

Ah, the Knicks of '73. What a team.

The quote about Earl The Pearl at the time was that he could do on the floor what Dr. J did in the air.

Actually, he was the best 1-on-1 player on the team.

But then, the Knicks also won it all a few years earlier with Barnett in the backcourt instead of Monroe. And Barnett was very much a guy who did well in a team concept.