NFL Coaching Record: Pete Carroll vs Ken Whisenhunt

TJ

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Compare the two coach's playoff records and you get a much different story
 

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Didn't Pete Carroll get a Bill Parcells team fresh off a super bowl appearance?
 
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azsouthendzone

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The point is they have a very similar record. The team with expectations ran Carroll out of town. The team with no expectations, just happy they aren't a joke anymore, is content. Whisenhunt will be lucky to reach 6-10 to officially match Carroll's winning %. All I am saying is, don't rest on the Super Bowl appearance. Things can, or should I say are, getting ugly fast. Every winning or losing season has a cause. Not to prop up the other board, but great post here on the situation:

http://forums.azcardinals.com/showthread.php?t=51942
 

TJ

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The point is they have a very similar record. The team with expectations ran Carroll out of town. The team with no expectations, just happy they aren't a joke anymore, is content. Whisenhunt will be lucky to reach 6-10 to officially match Carroll's winning %. All I am saying is, don't rest on the Super Bowl appearance. Things can, or should I say are, getting ugly fast. Every winning or losing season has a cause. Not to prop up the other board, but great post here on the situation:

http://forums.azcardinals.com/showthread.php?t=51942

1) looks like that guy is getting lambasted about his diatribe.

2) Are you asserting that we fire Whis at the end of the season if we do go 6-10?
 
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azsouthendzone

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1) looks like that guy is getting lambasted about his diatribe.

2) Are you asserting that we fire Whis at the end of the season if we do go 6-10?

1) Looks like you a) didn't read any part of it and b) didn't read more than two comments

2) Go back and read it then I will respond to question 2.
 

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1) Looks like you a) didn't read any part of it and b) didn't read more than two comments

2) Go back and read it then I will respond to question 2.

I skimmed it and got bored. Too much repetition

Go back and answer #2. Inquiring minds want to know....
 
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azsouthendzone

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I skimmed it and got bored. Too much repetition

Go back and answer #2. Inquiring minds want to know....

TJ, if you can't spend 4 minutes out of your time at the computer to read it, then who really gives a damn anyway.
 

TJ

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TJ, if you can't spend 4 minutes out of your time at the computer to read it, then who really gives a damn anyway.

You are the creator of the thread and are making several implications. As the creator, it is your job to defend your stance. One of those implications is that you wish for Whisenhunt to be terminated at the end of the season. I want to hear the reasoning behind this.

BTW....using the official MB as a point of reference to defend your post is like using George W. Bush as a reference on a job application. Dont do it.
 

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The point is they have a very similar record. The team with expectations ran Carroll out of town. The team with no expectations, just happy they aren't a joke anymore, is content. Whisenhunt will be lucky to reach 6-10 to officially match Carroll's winning %. All I am saying is, don't rest on the Super Bowl appearance. Things can, or should I say are, getting ugly fast. Every winning or losing season has a cause. Not to prop up the other board, but great post here on the situation:

http://forums.azcardinals.com/showthread.php?t=51942

Which NFL team has the most post season W's over the last 2 years? For that alone, Whiz should be due greater respect than you continue to toss his way...
Very few teams in the NFL sustain winning and post season appearances. Most teams go thru cycles where they hit a patch of crappiness, then re-tool and do well for a period of time, and then fall back again. Teams like the Steelers, Patriots & Colts don't come along too often these days. Yet, here is Whiz and all he's done is win more than his predecessors, and win more in the post season than his current peers over the past couple of seasons.
The Cards climbed an enormous mountain just to get back to mere non-laughing stock of the league status, let alone win back to back NFC West titles. Seriously, isn't that a remarkable feat in and of itself? So, now in his 4th season, Whiz has made some changes, has had to deal with the inevitable player movement that is routine in todays NFL, had to deal with the retirement of a future hall of famer in Warner, and had to do what great leaders do - make the very tough, unpopular decision to bench a former #1 pick in Matty.
We don't know why the QB situation unfolded the way it did. But man - don't you think Whiz has earned the benefit of the doubt on this one? I sure do...
And would it be that abnormal for a team to slip back to 6 or 7 wins after reaching the heights the Cards have reached over the past 2-3 seasons? Of course not...IMHO, should we fall back and not reach the post season this year, the real test for Whiz is what happens in 2011. Does the team remain at that level, or does Whiz really show what he's made of and gets this team right back to the top of the division...
 
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azsouthendzone

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You are the creator of the thread and are making several implications. As the creator, it is your job to defend your stance. One of those implications is that you wish for Whisenhunt to be terminated at the end of the season. I want to hear the reasoning behind this.

BTW....using the official MB as a point of reference to defend your post is like using George W. Bush as a reference on a job application. Dont do it.

Nope, never implied that Whisenhunt should be canned after this season. I do think that he should be looked at more closely. If he achieves a winning record, I will be the first to praise him. If he doesn't win, and say the team wins 5 games, I think the path from 10 to 5 wins needs to seriously be looked at. I think there are multiple, troubling signs that are leading to the demise of the team, and yes, I have issues with a lot of the ways he handles players. That is why I posted the link. I think that writer spells it out, in a way that I cannot. As far as the Carroll comparison, maybe it is just me thinking out loud. I guess what I am trying to say is I don't want to set expectations too low because of the past. If the team wins 5 games (ugh) no I wouldn't can Whisenhunt. But the hot seat shouldn't be ruled out.
 
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azsouthendzone

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IMHO, should we fall back and not reach the post season this year, the real test for Whiz is what happens in 2011. Does the team remain at that level, or does Whiz really show what he's made of and gets this team right back to the top of the division...

I agree with that.
 

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Sometimes a team needs to take 2 steps back in order to move forward. Happens in the NFL all the time.

BTW your comparison to Pete Carroll is ridiculous.
 
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azsouthendzone

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Sometimes a team needs to take 2 steps back in order to move forward. Happens in the NFL all the time.

BTW your comparison to Pete Carroll is ridiculous.

Sometimes a team takes 2 steps back on the way to taking ten steps back. Some teams move forward easier than others. Ask SF.

BTW, that is your opinion. Either way they have a similar winning percentage through their first four years, possibly identical.
 

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Sometimes a team takes 2 steps back on the way to taking ten steps back. Some teams move forward easier than others. Ask SF.

BTW, that is your opinion. Either way they have a similar winning percentage through their first four years, possibly identical.

Sometimes they do. But if you in anyway shape or form view this as the same old Cardinals in the way they do things and the way this organization is run I say you need some serious help.

SF is a bad analogy they have been bad for approx 9 years now. So Where is the steps forward that you can use from them to make it comparable? Where is the success in the last decade that you can refer to?

We get it you don't like Ken Whisenhunt. In fact you hate him for what he did to your man crush on Matt Leinart. Your Matty dreams are shattered now. We all know it. No point in bringing it up every week. Is there?

In the next 2 or 3 years we will know if you were right. The majority of us believe you will be wrong. Only time will tell. No matter how this season turns out.
 

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Sometimes a team takes 2 steps back on the way to taking ten steps back. Some teams move forward easier than others. Ask SF.

BTW, that is your opinion. Either way they have a similar winning percentage through their first four years, possibly identical.

Both have limited years in the NFL as head coaches... however, you are missing a very big distinction between the two - a BIG one. I believe history shows that rah-rah, spotlight seekers like Carroll do not fare well in the NFL. Go back and look at successful coaches over the past several years... Super Bowl winners... And you'll find that from a character and personality perspective, they all much more resemble Whiz than they do Carroll. Tomlin, Dungy, Belicheck, Payton, Reid...
Consistency... during good times and bad, Whiz is never shaken. Never gets crazy high or crazy low. The players always, without fail, no what to expect from Whiz. This helps build trust and a belief that the coach isn't in this for himself, his own spotlight...
You simply can't say that about Pete Carroll. Therefore, IMHO, I don't think we'll ever see Carroll experiencing any sustained success in the NFL. I think there will always be players who won't trust him and will always question his motives, wondering if Pete is about Pete first, team second...
 
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azsouthendzone

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Sometimes they do. But if you in anyway shape or form view this as the same old Cardinals in the way they do things and the way this organization is run I say you need some serious help.

No way would I say that. This team under Micheal Bidwill has turned the corner.

SF is a bad analogy they have been bad for approx 9 years now. So Where is the steps forward that you can use from them to make it comparable? Where is the success in the last decade that you can refer to?

Maybe it wasn't the perfect analogy, but what I am saying is that it is a lot harder to get up from the mat when you are forced to completely rebuild instead of simply retooling. It is hard enough to win in the league without shooting yourself in the foot by making dubious personnel moves. Teams tend to stay on the bottom for a long time once they reach the bottom. I get that in the NFL there is player turnover and that has an impact but some teams manage that better than others. The Chargers have turned over players, even coaches, in a smart way than maintains competitiveness. They didn't get rid of Brees for Derek Anderson.


We get it you don't like Ken Whisenhunt. In fact you hate him for what he did to your man crush on Matt Leinart. Your Matty dreams are shattered now. We all know it. No point in bringing it up every week. Is there?

If it was all about Leinart you would be correct. But it is not. It is about dubious moves and an attempt to humble players to the detriment of the team. Playing hardball with Boldin, Leinart, Lutui, Watson, and even leaving Beanie in late in preseason games to make him "work" is bizarre.

In the next 2 or 3 years we will know if you were right. The majority of us believe you will be wrong. Only time will tell. No matter how this season turns out.

Correct. I hope I am wrong. Time will tell. I just hope there aren't too many bumps along the way.
 
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azsouthendzone

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Go back and look at successful coaches over the past several years... Super Bowl winners... And you'll find that from a character and personality perspective, they all much more resemble Whiz than they do Carroll. Tomlin, Dungy, Belicheck, Payton, Reid...
Consistency... during good times and bad, Whiz is never shaken. Never gets crazy high or crazy low. The players always, without fail, no what to expect from Whiz. This helps build trust and a belief that the coach isn't in this for himself, his own spotlight...
...

Well, I think you have both personality types that can be successful. Cowher and Gruden are fiery coaches who were pretty successful. Parcells even got after it quite a bit. I don't think this is about how Whisenhunt handles himself in postgame news conferences or on the sidelines. The part about trust is what I am afraid of.
 

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TJ, if you can't spend 4 minutes out of your time at the computer to read it, then who really gives a damn anyway.

azsouthendzone: This is pretty much what this board has become lately. Way too many of the posters decide the content of the thread, based on what the title is. Very few bother to read anything longer than one or two sentenses, and they all enjoy bashing each other with one liners.

Your post was very informational. This writer was spot-on with his assesment, and clearly is not calling for Whizenhunt's firing. He has, however recognized a number of areas that Whiz has been quite peculiar in his dealings with personnel. I find NOTHING in his assessment of the current state of this team to be in error or out of line.

I concur with his findings-----and would only add one more item to the discussion. That would be Whiz's penchant for calling his own plays. I have heard him say on several occasions that "it is fun to call his own plays". While that may be true, it seems to me that a head coach with as many areas on the team that need attention, would hardly have time to add to his duties so that he can have fun.

I agree with the assessment of Anderson-----and I have already stated, that if Whiz fails to get Anderson's passing proficiency up to respectable levels by the BYE WEEK, then he will probably be forced to either go find a waiver wire replacement for DA, or start one of his rookie QB's. Neither option is a great one, though I would probably opt for the latter at this stage of the game, as there seems to be little more than other DA lookalikes on the waiver wire.

I believe that Whiz's penchant for calling plays, detracts from the other facets of the game that need attention badly. Nose tackle is the first of these that I would change. Watson is being totally wasted. Strangely, like Matt Leinart, he has done everything that this team has asked him to do. Lose weight, get stronger, learn the postition and become a force in the middle. Now he can't even suit up on Sunday. Why? With opposing teams logging 80 offensive plays per game, how can we keep the defense fresh. Having a too-old, and undersized Bryan Robinson playing the nose, is a recipe for disaster. He cannot command a double team, nor can he even handle a single blocker. The holes he leaves in our run defense up the middle are atrocious. The trash left for the linebackers to work through, and the double teams forced upon Dockett are the results of this poor showing in the middle.

I also find it very troubling that he seems either unaware that Fitzgerald is becoming totally frustrated and annoyed by DA's failure to get the ball to open receivers. This REALLY doesn't bode well if Whiz fails to get DA to a point of respectability in the passing game. Yet that seems unlikely. The result could be that FItz opts to hit the FA market at the end of his contract, rather that sign on for more of the same. That, in turn could, cause prospective players from coming here, (sort of a return to our good old days).

The possiblilty of causing permanent damage is growing each day, and the sad part is that Whiz, because he is so busy trying to correct an uncorrectable DA, or get the next play call just right for DA to excell, that he just doesn't see the big picture. Sadly, THAT IS A HEAD COACH'S JOB. It is his responsibility to identify problems on various units of his team, and get the postiion coaches to correct those problems. Can't do that if you don't see the problems because you are engrossed in a play book. Hell, I don't have the answers, but I know enough that if I smell smoke, I check for fire. I just hope someone puts out all the smoldering pockets of embers on this team before an inferno breaks out.
 
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azsouthendzone

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Well said Catfish. Enjoy the forthcoming bashing. Either way you are dead on about Whiz the play caller.
 

TJ

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Sorry Catfish

If a poster can get his or her point across in 4 or 5 sentences, what's the point of writing dissertations? Some of the best posters on here only write a couple of sentences but explain more than some who decide to spend half of their day writing write ups on the game. I pride myself in summarizing, paraphrasing and skimming yet still find ability to challenge other posters while giving good insight at the same time. Qualitative vs Quantitative analysis.
 

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Sorry Catfish

If a poster can get his or her point across in 4 or 5 sentences, what's the point of writing dissertations? Some of the best posters on here only write a couple of sentences but explain more than some who decide to spend half of their day writing write ups on the game. I pride myself in summarizing, paraphrasing and skimming yet still find ability to challenge other posters while giving good insight at the same time. Qualitative vs Quantitative analysis.

I've noticed.
 
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