no free agents yet? maybe thats a good thing

[freebyrd]

perhaps in going over the roster and evaluating our talent wiz decided we were a lot better off than most of us think,

say what you want about green but the talent level on this team hasn't been this good for a long time, there are several under acheivers ,big comes to mind,
but I think the coaching staff must have a great deal of faith in their abilities to coach up who we have and to build a system that takes advantage of the skill players already on the roster,

thats my hope anyway, and this is the most hopeful time of year for a cards fan
freebyrd

 

[40yearfan]

I agree freebyrd but some on this board are probably going to rip into you and tear you to shreds. Then, while they are knawing on your bones, they will find another unsuspecting victim and leave your shattered hulk to the vultures. Hopefully we will have enough of your DNA left to reconstruct you.

 

[Duckjake]

I don't know about being better off than we think but they could have decided that there just isn't anyone available that they like enough to pay the inflated cost caused by the new CBA.

One thing I have learned in watching the Cardinals is that nothing is over until its over when it comes to personnel issues.

 

[AntSports Steve]

Starting on the approach to make the Arizona Cardinals a feared football team by running the ball...

Here's what the new coaches are thinking....

"We need to be a hardcore rushing team like the Steelers. The team is a long way from being a rushing threat. Looks like it will take several years and a complete roster turnover before this team is ready." Let's concentrate on the draft and try to get younger. This free agent class is too old. We will use the free agents in the future when there are just a few holes to fill. This market is crazy.

So they start a multi year plan to transform the Cards into a rushing team. In the meantime, the "Passing" stars, Fitz and Boldin force their way out of town. They finally realize that they are starting rebuilding again and are tired of it.

 

[WildBB]

No, no, didn't you hear the news. Shipp and Milligan.

 

[Duckjake]

The team is a long way from being a rushing threat. Looks like it will take several years and a complete roster turnover before this team is ready."

Why would they think that? The Cards are not exactly a run and shoot outfit with nothing but pass blockers and tiny speedsters at the wideouts.

 

[freebyrd]

we weren't a bad rushing team towards the end of the year, we need that balanced offense to take full advantage of Q and fitz, time will tell but i think that if the coaching staff that our overall talent level was that bad we would be making some sort of splash in the free agent market,

 

[kerouac9]

Edge doesn't have time. We have maybe two more years of him being able to have a 1300+ yard season. After that...?

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Edge doesn't have time. We have maybe two more years of him being able to have a 1300+ yard season. After that...?

...we draft a new running back?

 

[JeffGollin]

There is something to be said for a strategy based on the assumption that the guys already on our roster have enough talent to put us deep in the playoffs - they just have to be "pointed in the right direction."

But this is kind of like betting on the cum because it assumes the new coaching staff has the teaching skills and organizational skills to put us over the top. Until they prove they can do it, this remains unproven and therefore an unknown factor.

Some astute observers of pro football would prefer to replace unproductive talent with players who had a positive track record of success elsewhere - they'd maintain this would be a surer thing than to hope our current guys can be made to play better.

Both camps have their points, but I have no problem putting my money on The Wiz & Co. We hired 'em. Let's give them the opportunity to show us what they've got - even if it means sticking with our current hand and opting to improve from within.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

perhaps in going over the roster and evaluating our talent wiz decided we were a lot better off than most of us think,

say what you want about green but the talent level on this team hasn't been this good for a long time, there are several under acheivers ,big comes to mind,
but I think the coaching staff must have a great deal of faith in their abilities to coach up who we have and to build a system that takes advantage of the skill players already on the roster,

thats my hope anyway, and this is the most hopeful time of year for a cards fan
freebyrd

I understand the thinking. Everytime I hear about a Cardinals coach saying he has talent here to work with we end up throwing the same sucky offensive linemen out on the field and the suck just as bad as they ever did.

We NEED to bring in somce Olinemen. If we were to sign Al Johnson - C, Black - T, and draft J.Thomas or L.Brown then I think we will have improved the OLine a little.

 

[Doc Cardinal]

Some will bemoan the fact that we fail to land any high profile free agents.

Personally I'd rather see the approach that they seem to be taking....use the draft and a small handful of free agents to strengthen the team.

 

[cardsfanmd]

Why are you guys woried 'bout edge? The Lions, Bucs and Browns have had better offseasons than us thus far. All we have to do is suck more than the Raiders this year and we have the rights to McFadden. That shouldn't be too tough considering that we have lost to the worst teams in football for the last four years. Yes that is a fact.

One another note, I don't believe that we are that far away from being a good running team. We definitely dont need to get rid of our recievers either. Boldin is one of the best blocking recievers in the game. Right up there with Ward. Fitz is a great reciever. You know what that means? It makes it easier to run the ball.

The O-line needs help, there is no question. I think that we will get one of these combos in the draft:

(1)Thomas & (2)Kalil
(2)Staley & (3)Satele
(1)Thomas, (2)Staley & (3)Satele

Pair one of those groups with Lutui ( and maybe Brown) and we have one of the better young O-lines in the game. Wow, that didn't take long at all.

 

[daytripper]

There is something to be said for a strategy based on the assumption that the guys already on our roster have enough talent to put us deep in the playoffs - they just have to be "pointed in the right direction."

But this is kind of like betting on the cum because it assumes the new coaching staff has the teaching skills and organizational skills to put us over the top. Until they prove they can do it, this remains unproven and therefore an unknown factor.

Some astute observers of pro football would prefer to replace unproductive talent with players who had a positive track record of success elsewhere - they'd maintain this would be a surer thing than to hope our current guys can be made to play better.

Both camps have their points, but I have no problem putting my money on The Wiz & Co. We hired 'em. Let's give them the opportunity to show us what they've got - even if it means sticking with our current hand and opting to improve from within.

Good post Jeff. I also believe we need to give Whiz and Co some space to apply their plan.
Personally I like the idea of having 2 decent players competing for the same job as opposed to one high dollar player knowing he has a spot sewn up.
The "system" worked in PA so why not in AZ?
Only TIME will tell.

 

[Stout]

perhaps in going over the roster and evaluating our talent wiz decided we were a lot better off than most of us think,

say what you want about green but the talent level on this team hasn't been this good for a long time, there are several under acheivers ,big comes to mind,
but I think the coaching staff must have a great deal of faith in their abilities to coach up who we have and to build a system that takes advantage of the skill players already on the roster,

thats my hope anyway, and this is the most hopeful time of year for a cards fan
freebyrd

All right, I can't take it any more. Can't, can't, can't, can't, can't! We have a TON of cap space, and if we went out there and picked up 8-10 guys of varying ability levels and prices, we would almost definitely vastly improve our roster. It's simple numbers. Even if a few of them bust, we have the chance to get better players by getting a lot of them. Good God, what else are we going to do with the money? Accelerate bonuses so the Bidwills can pocket more money and have even MORE cap space next year? What? If we don't use it, it doesn't work for us. I'm sick and frickin' tired of this 'healthy cap' crap. It's a steaming pile of poop that we get fed year after year after frickin' year. It is idiotic, it is conservative, and it keeps money in Billy Boy's pockets.

Aaaaaargh! We have gaping holes at STARTING positions. We have cap space. You simply cannot expect many draft picks to step in and become instant starters, solid starters. We're shaping up for some pain next season, folks. Mark it down. Unless we get off our rears and DO something (rather than bringing in re-treads and depth players) we are SCREWED.

 

[kerouac9]

Good post Jeff. I also believe we need to give Whiz and Co some space to apply their plan.
Personally I like the idea of having 2 decent players competing for the same job as opposed to one high dollar player knowing he has a spot sewn up.
The "system" worked in PA so why not in AZ?
Only TIME will tell.

I'm sorry, but I think you're totally wrong about the "system" in PA. They've had the same group of OL playing together for years, and 4/5 of that system are first day picks. We don't have anything close to that right now, and won't for some time.

Yes, you can replace a player here and there over the years, but there are three standouts on that line that always start. We don't have anything like that there.

 

[40yearfan]

I'm sorry, but I think you're totally wrong about the "system" in PA. They've had the same group of OL playing together for years, and 4/5 of that system are first day picks. We don't have anything close to that right now, and won't for some time.

Yes, you can replace a player here and there over the years, but there are three standouts on that line that always start. We don't have anything like that there.

K9, Wiz has been here about 2 months. Shouldn't we at least give him 3 months to implement that system?

 

[kerouac9]

K9, Wiz has been here about 2 months. Shouldn't we at least give him 3 months to implement that system?

But the system isn't coaching up late-round, second day picks. Never here was the projected starting lineup for the offensive line of the 2006 Pittsburgh Steelers:

OLT - Marvel Smith - 2nd round, Pittsburgh Steelers, 2002
OLG - Alan Faneca - 1st round, Pittsburgh Steelers, 1998
C - Jeff Hartings - 1st round, Detroit Lions, 1996 (With Steelers since 2001)
ORG - Kendall Simmons - 1st round, Pittsburgh Steelers, 2000
ORT - Max Starks - 3rd round, Pittsburgh Steelers, 2004

So, 40, how do you expect Whis and Grimm to "implement that system" with inferior talent? Everybody here crows about Grimm being about to "coach up" our offensive line, but he didn't coach anyone up in Pittsburgh. He had a bunch of first-day picks to coach?

For comparison's sake, here's the projected starting line for the 2007 Arizona Cardinals:

OLT - Olliver Ross - 5th Round, Dallas Cowboys, 1998 (With Cardinals since 2005)
OLG - Milford Brown - 7th Round, Houston Texans, 2003 Supplemental Draft (With Cards since 2006)
C - Nick Leckey - 6th round, Arizona Cardinals, 2004
ORG - Deuce Lutui - 2nd round, Arizona Cardinals, 2006
ORT - Reggie Wells - 6th Round, Arizona Cardinals, 2003

Isn't the goal to win the Super Bowl in our own house in February 2008? Can you really look at this group and think that this is the team to get us there?

 

[kerouac9]

Bump for 40 or anyone else who says that Grimm needs to be given a chance to work his miracles with what's here.

 

[40yearfan]

But the system isn't coaching up late-round, second day picks. Never here was the projected starting lineup for the offensive line of the 2006 Pittsburgh Steelers:

OLT - Marvel Smith - 2nd round, Pittsburgh Steelers, 2002
OLG - Alan Faneca - 1st round, Pittsburgh Steelers, 1998
C - Jeff Hartings - 1st round, Detroit Lions, 1996 (With Steelers since 2001)
ORG - Kendall Simmons - 1st round, Pittsburgh Steelers, 2000
ORT - Max Starks - 3rd round, Pittsburgh Steelers, 2004

So, 40, how do you expect Whis and Grimm to "implement that system" with inferior talent? Everybody here crows about Grimm being about to "coach up" our offensive line, but he didn't coach anyone up in Pittsburgh. He had a bunch of first-day picks to coach?

For comparison's sake, here's the projected starting line for the 2007 Arizona Cardinals:

OLT - Olliver Ross - 5th Round, Dallas Cowboys, 1998 (With Cardinals since 2005)
OLG - Milford Brown - 7th Round, Houston Texans, 2003 Supplemental Draft (With Cards since 2006)
C - Nick Leckey - 6th round, Arizona Cardinals, 2004
ORG - Deuce Lutui - 2nd round, Arizona Cardinals, 2006
ORT - Reggie Wells - 6th Round, Arizona Cardinals, 2003

Isn't the goal to win the Super Bowl in our own house in February 2008? Can you really look at this group and think that this is the team to get us there?

So what you are saying is that if the player isn't picked in the first or second round of the draft, he has no chance of being a good NFL player?

I wouldn't go there if I were you K9.

 

[kerouac9]

So what you are saying is that if the player isn't picked in the first or second round of the draft, he has no chance of being a good NFL player?

I wouldn't go there if I were you K9.

You know that's what I'm not saying. You know what I'm saying because I said it:

ut the system isn't coaching up late-round, second day picks. Never here was the projected starting lineup for the offensive line of the 2006 Pittsburgh Steelers

You and others are insisting that Russ Grimm can come in and "coach up" the available talent, on the assumption that that's exactly what he did in Pittsburgh. That's obviously not the case, because he coached better prospects than he did in Pittsburgh. I'm just wondering if you're still confident in Grimm to be able to get 1st round performance out of 7th round talent.

 

[40yearfan]

You know that's what I'm not saying. You know what I'm saying because I said it:



You and others are insisting that Russ Grimm can come in and "coach up" the available talent, on the assumption that that's exactly what he did in Pittsburgh. That's obviously not the case, because he coached better prospects than he did in Pittsburgh. I'm just wondering if you're still confident in Grimm to be able to get 1st round performance out of 7th round talent.

Well K9, this is where you and I will outright disagree. You are definetely saying that where a person is drafted determines his success in the NFL. There is no other way to say it. If that's the case, why bother with drafting more than just the first two rounds? According to you, there is no way to get the lower rounds to play up to the level of the first two rounds. I disagree with this assumption also.

I don't know a whole lot about Grimm, but I do know he had a lot to do with the Steelers winning on a consistant basis. If he and Wiz think we are better off without Davis, I certainly won't argue with them. Unlike some on this board, I realize that they know a lot more about football/players than I ever will.

 

[kerouac9]

Well K9, this is where you and I will outright disagree. You are definetely saying that where a person is drafted determines his success in the NFL. There is no other way to say it. If that's the case, why bother with drafting more than just the first two rounds? According to you, there is no way to get the lower rounds to play up to the level of the first two rounds. I disagree with this assumption also.

I don't know a whole lot about Grimm, but I do know he had a lot to do with the Steelers winning on a consistant basis. If he and Wiz think we are better off without Davis, I certainly won't argue with them. Unlike some on this board, I realize that they know a lot more about football/players than I ever will.

Thanks for again putting words in my mouth. I am definitively not saying that. If that's what I meant, that's what I would say. What I'm saying is that people seem to believe that Russ Grimm has a history of getting production out of lower-round talent. You can spin that any way you want, but it's not the truth.

It turns out that Grimm's "genius" is exactly what a lot of people here are saying it is: getting a group of good players together and letting them play together for awhile.

Do you expect the 2007 Arizona Cardinals to be successful? Like, 9-7 or better successful? If you do, then say so, and we'll talk about the reasons why you think that. If you think that this team can't win next season with the personnel that we currently have, especially on O-line, then we're in agreement.

It's funny how quickly you are to go on attack about someone else's statements instead of actually stating and defending what you think.

 

[40yearfan]

Thanks for again putting words in my mouth. I am definitively not saying that. If that's what I meant, that's what I would say. What I'm saying is that people seem to believe that Russ Grimm has a history of getting production out of lower-round talent. You can spin that any way you want, but it's not the truth.

It turns out that Grimm's "genius" is exactly what a lot of people here are saying it is: getting a group of good players together and letting them play together for awhile.

Do you expect the 2007 Arizona Cardinals to be successful? Like, 9-7 or better successful? If you do, then say so, and we'll talk about the reasons why you think that. If you think that this team can't win next season with the personnel that we currently have, especially on O-line, then we're in agreement.

It's funny how quickly you are to go on attack about someone else's statements instead of actually stating and defending what you think.

K9 read what you posted. You didn't say people believe Grimm has a history of coaching up lower round talent until this very post I am quoting. How was I to know that was what you were talking about? BTW, I defy you to show one post on this board where I said Grimm could do that. I haven't.

If that's your premise, so be it. As I said in another post, I don't know Grimm very well, but I do believe he had a lot to do with the Steelers winning a lot of games and I trusted his judgement.

 

[freebyrd]

i think it has to start with changing the culture of losing around here, i know the only way to do that is winning and i am more than ready for that but wiz and grimm came from a team and an organization with a long tradition of winning and thats a start, i am willing to let them use their judgment and we'll all get to see the final product this fall,

i think we'll be better off, i don't believe we'll be worse