No to Streets

Jetstream Green

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I just don't see what people see in him. He wasn't rated high in the draft and is still a project. We have enough projects going on in the WR dept. ... don't we? For a number 3 WR maybe, but for our number 1 or 2 seems crazy.

GO TROOPS!!! go cardinals!
 

artp

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The Cardinals cannot go into the season without signing a WR. If they re-sign Sanders, fine; but they have to have a veteran to go with McAddley, Gilmore, and Kasper. This might be one area where a June 1 cut can help. I don't see drafting a wr in rds 1-3. Streets would be a good addition.
 

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Streets is a very good #2 WR, better than JJ Stokes.

When he was drafted, he probably would have been a late 1st or 2nd rounder, but was injured, so the 49ers got him cheap.

I'm not sure exactly what the Cards would have to give up to get him. Is he tendered a 1st round spot? If so, then no, Streets is not worth the Cards #6 pick.

The NFL rules say a team must give up their orginal selection when signing other teams free agents, so trading out of #6 is not possible.

Now, if some team like the Saints or the Raiders, signed him to a 3 year deal and gave up their late round draft pick, then I might consider trading the Cards #1 for Streets, their other 1st Round Pick and possible a 3rd rounder. Of course, the Cards could never swing a deal this complex and risky. A deal like this would skirt around current NFL rules. Also, for Streets to be traded, his signing bonus would have to be zero or the trade wouldn't work.

If the contract wasn't at least 3 years, I wouldn't want Streets.

I guess you could try to sign him to a contract where there is a bonus clause for being traded. Something like, $1.5 million per year of each year remaining on his contract converts into a bonus payable by the team receiving Streets.

All this seems way to hard, but since the 49ers are in the same division as the Cards, weaking their WR position while improving the Cards would be ideal.
 

ds512az

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The problem with Streets is that he had to take a back seat to TO. If I remember correctly, (and as time wears on the memory fades ever so quickly), wasn't Streets supposed to take Jerry Rice's place on the squad until TO started crying that it was his turn to be the "superstar"?

If the Cards can land a Streets or Robinson, that would definitely improve the FA period moreso.
 

kerouac9

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Originally posted by ds512az
The problem with Streets is that he had to take a back seat to TO. If I remember correctly, (and as time wears on the memory fades ever so quickly), wasn't Streets supposed to take Jerry Rice's place on the squad until TO started crying that it was his turn to be the "superstar"?

If the Cards can land a Streets or Robinson, that would definitely improve the FA period moreso.

Actually, J.J. Stokes was supposed to be the next great 49er WR. My brother still has a Stokes replica jersey. Tai was a starter this season because Stokes continued to underperform. If Stokes or Streets were so good, why did Mooch run a run-first O the past three years in SF? Both guys are no better than someone we could get in the draft for less money and more years.
 

ds512az

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My bad. You are correct sir. I completely forgot about Stokes.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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um, maybe they ran a "run-first" offense because they were good at it?
 

kerouac9

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Originally posted by PHXSPORTS4LIFE
um, maybe they ran a "run-first" offense because they were good at it?

Perhaps, but if management was so happy about winning with it, why did they **** can Mooch and then hire a "huck and duck" offense coach in Erickson? It's no stretch to say that in the 49ers organization, it's not only important to win, but to win the 49er way, which is to do exacly what Bill Walsh tells you to do.
 

Pariah

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Originally posted by kerouac9
If Stokes or Streets were so good, why did Mooch run a run-first O the past three years in SF?

The west coast offense IS a "run-first" offense--it always has been.

In fact, of all the teams in the NFL last year (or in recent memory), the Oakland Raiders' is the only offense I can think of that wasn't "run-first." Probably 99% of offenses are predicated on the run.
 

kerouac9

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Originally posted by Pariah
The west coast offense IS a "run-first" offense--it always has been.

In fact, of all the teams in the NFL last year (or in recent memory), the Oakland Raiders' is the only offense I can think of that wasn't "run-first." Probably 99% of offenses are predicated on the run.

What about the Pats O? Or the Steelers? Or the Browns? The West Coast offense utilized screens, short outs, crosses and slants to use the short, high-percentage passing game as a running game.

If the West Coast offense is a "run first" offsense, what differentiates it from "normal" offenses?
 

BACH

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49ers | More On Streets - from KFFL (http://nfl.kffl.com)
March 19, 2003 5:35:41 PT The Contra Costa Times reports it appears restricted free agent WR Tai Streets (49ers) may be staying with the San Francisco 49ers. "We're not going to give Tai away. He's a potential starting wideout," 49ers GM Terry Donahue said. "The Jets offered us a third(-round draft pick), and we're not going to do a deal for a third, and nobody's going to give us a second(-round pick)." Donahue said the Jets also may have lost interest in Streets over Streets' apparent desire for a $9 million signing bonus in a potential new contract. Donahue said the 49ers are assuming Streets will become a free agent in 2004 and that he'll re-sign his one-year tender to play with the 49ers in 2003.


First, the 49'ers are demanding a 2nd rounder for Streets (He has to sign his one-year tender contact with the 49'ers first, though).

Second, they don't appear to have a problem with his production, but with his salary demands. I read somewhere (can't remember where though) that the 49'ers have serious cap problems, because they don't have that much room and 5-6 of their best players becomes FAs next year. I can't remember all the names, but I think WR Owens, WR Streets, RB Barlow, DE Engelberger, CB Plummer, OLB Peterson and Bryant Young were all on that list.

That's probably why they want to trade him now, because there won't be enough room to give him the contact, that he wants, next year.
 

Pariah

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Originally posted by kerouac9
What about the Pats O? Or the Steelers? Or the Browns? The West Coast offense utilized screens, short outs, crosses and slants to use the short, high-percentage passing game as a running game.

If the West Coast offense is a "run first" offsense, what differentiates it from "normal" offenses?

You answered your own question--the use of screens, slants and short passes. I'm really not trying to stir the pot, but the West Coast offense MUST have a strong run game to succeed--it's the foundation of the offense.

I'm not as familiar with some of the offenses you mentioned, but I do know that they base their offense on the run. It may not be a strong run game, but that does not mean that they are "pass-first."

Some of the "Chuck-and-Duck" offenses of the 80's were pass-first (Houston comes to mind), and I think the Rams in the 50's or 60's were, too; but beyond a few notable exeptions most every NFL offense uses the run as the building blocks to run the system. It's not that those systems can't be different--the WC offense is very different from what Buffalo does, for example. But it doesn't change the fact that they both establish the run to get other things done.
 

kerouac9

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Originally posted by Pariah
You answered your own question--the use of screens, slants and short passes. I'm really not trying to stir the pot, but the West Coast offense MUST have a strong run game to succeed--it's the foundation of the offense.

I'm not as familiar with some of the offenses you mentioned, but I do know that they base their offense on the run. It may not be a strong run game, but that does not mean that they are "pass-first."

Some of the "Chuck-and-Duck" offenses of the 80's were pass-first (Houston comes to mind), and I think the Rams in the 50's or 60's were, too; but beyond a few notable exeptions most every NFL offense uses the run as the building blocks to run the system. It's not that those systems can't be different--the WC offense is very different from what Buffalo does, for example. But it doesn't change the fact that they both establish the run to get other things done.

Pittsburgh basically abandoned the running game halfway through the season, when Bettis was hurt and/or ineffective, and Zeroue was unable to be an every-down back and carry the offense. Their WRs were better than their running backs, and they became mostly vertical.

The Pats functioned mostly out of a 3- to 4-WR set almost the entire season, predicating their offensive strategy on their WR Corps being better as a group than the LB/CB corps (coverage units) of the opposition, creating matchup problems around the field on short passes.

The Browns didn't have a star WR, but they had three or four above-average WRs, so they came out in a lot of 3 and 4 WR sets throughout the game (which represents virtually no threat of the run), creating a matchup problem with opposing coverage units. Like the Pats, they used the short-game passes (largely without safety support) to act as a running game before their Rookie RB came on like gangbusters at the end of the season.

The Rams used ultra-fast WRs on the outside, which demanded S support against the deep ball, and then possession WRs in the slots, as well as a nasty recieving RB in Faulk, to create gaps in coverage in the middle of the field and in the short game to create big runs after the catch.

The West Coast scheme is not a "Huck and Duck" scheme. As I said, it relies on short passes to WRs and TEs and screens to act as a running game, and depend on yards after the catch to stretch the field and create long gains. The holes don't open because defenders are playing the run, they open because defenders are blitzing in an effort to get to the QB. The system relies on a QB who can make fast reads on the blitzing D and deliver the ball accurately. West Coast schemes failed with Kordell Stewart and Jake Plummer under center because they're too dumb and not accurate enough to implement the system. They succeed with weak-armed QBs like Montana and Pennington because they're smart and can read D's quickly.

Assert that the West Coast scheme needs a great running game as much as you want, but last season Charlie Garner didn't gain 1000 yards in the consummate West Coast scheme, and Dorsey Levens only gained over 1000 yards twice when GB was in its heyday.
 

Pariah

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Actually, I never said the west coast offense, or any other style of offense NEEDED a great running game. All I said was that 99% of offenses are "run-first."

No matter the offensive style, the vast majority of offenses want to be able to establish the run game as a threat. That doesn't necessarily have to translate into big run numbers.

And, to wrap back to the original point: it's not as if Mooch abandoned his pasing attack to run Hearst and Barlow. Garcia still had pretty good numbers, and it was still, for the most part, a west coast-style offense.
 

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Kerouc,

For a run first offense they passed an awefully lot as well. Especially, when you consider their passing yards accounted for 60% of their total yards.
 

kerouac9

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Originally posted by Pariah
Actually, I never said the west coast offense, or any other style of offense NEEDED a great running game. All I said was that 99% of offenses are "run-first."

No matter the offensive style, the vast majority of offenses want to be able to establish the run game as a threat. That doesn't necessarily have to translate into big run numbers.

And, to wrap back to the original point: it's not as if Mooch abandoned his pasing attack to run Hearst and Barlow. Garcia still had pretty good numbers, and it was still, for the most part, a west coast-style offense.

Well, I named four teams that were mostly pass-first, and out of 32 teams, that's over 10% of teams that were pass-first. There are probably more that I can't think of right now. Seattle comes to mind. Minnesota at the beginning of the season, as well. So, I guess 99% of teams aren't "run first".

I'd disagree with your second point, as well. For the most part, both NFC and AFC Champions in 2002 were pass-first teams. I don't know if that proves anything to you, but a fact's a fact.

Yes, the Neeners gained more yards through the air than on the ground, but you're supposed to gain more yards through the air than on the ground, regardless of scheme. Despite that, the 2002 Niners did not run a West Coast scheme. They had a power running game re-inforced by a vertical passing game. Eric Johnson only had 36 catches last season, and the TE is a substantial target in the West Coast scheme (for comparison, in a more West Coast scheme in Green Bay, Bubba Franks had 54 catches).

Assert all you want, fellas, but the numbers don't bear it out. Mooch got fired because he didn't want to run a West Coast scheme.
 

Pariah

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Originally posted by kerouac9
Well, I named four teams that were mostly pass-first, and out of 32 teams, that's over 10% of teams that were pass-first. There are probably more that I can't think of right now. Seattle comes to mind. Minnesota at the beginning of the season, as well. So, I guess 99% of teams aren't "run first".

I'd disagree with your second point, as well. For the most part, both NFC and AFC Champions in 2002 were pass-first teams. I don't know if that proves anything to you, but a fact's a fact.

Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think that because a team passes more it necessarily means they pass first.
 

kerouac9

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Originally posted by Pariah
Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think that because a team passes more it necessarily means they pass first.

Do you even watch non-Cards NFL games? Can you possibly not understand what I'm talking about? Are you reading my posts?
 

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good post there Pariah. Pretty much all offenses like to use somekind of running game as a legimate threat, in light of weather field conditions etc.
 

kerouac9

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Originally posted by Young Gun
good post there Pariah. Pretty much all offenses like to use somekind of running game as a legimate threat, in light of weather field conditions etc.

The Pat's running game presented no legitimate threat the entire season.

The Brown's running game presented no legitimate threat the first half of the season.

The Titan's running game presented virtually no legitimate threat most of the season.

The Rams decided not to use their running game virtually the entire season.

The Bears presented no legitimate running threat the enitre season.

Some teams wouldn't mind having some rushing attack, but to say that 99% of teams in the NFL have a run-first offense, or that the West Coast scheme is predicated on a run-first philosophy is just silly and ignorant.
 

Pariah

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Originally posted by kerouac9
Do you even watch non-Cards NFL games? Can you possibly not understand what I'm talking about? Are you reading my posts?

Are you reading mine?

And yes, I have the DirecTV NFL ticket, so I watch portions of most every game played.
 

kerouac9

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Originally posted by Pariah
Are you reading mine?

And yes, I have the DirecTV NFL ticket, so I watch portions of most every game played.

Yes, and I'm responding to them. Could you please respond to mine rather than asserting that 99% of teams have a "run first" philosophy? Yes, all offenses like to run the ball every once in a while, but there are a ton of teams that don't care whether or not they can run the ball effectively, and often don't feel the need to, such as the Raiders and Patriots. Do you have any thoughts on this?

Also, please respond to my post about the Neeners in 2002 not being a West Coast O. "Yes, they are" is not a response. Put some thought in to it.
 

Pariah

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Originally posted by kerouac9

Some teams wouldn't mind having some rushing attack, but to say that 99% of teams in the NFL have a run-first offense, or that the West Coast scheme is predicated on a run-first philosophy is just silly and ignorant.

Just because they don't do it well doesn't mean that it's not in their gameplan. Just cause you draw it on the chalkboard doesn't mean it's going to happen.

The west coast offense IS based on the run--it's the foundation. What makes it "different" (in quotes because it's not that "different" anymore, many teams have adopted or adapted that style of play) is the way it passes the ball; but none the less--IT IS based on the run.
 

Pariah

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Originally posted by kerouac9
Yes, and I'm responding to them. Could you please respond to mine rather than asserting that 99% of teams have a "run first" philosophy? Yes, all offenses like to run the ball every once in a while, but there are a ton of teams that don't care whether or not they can run the ball effectively, and often don't feel the need to, such as the Raiders and Patriots. Do you have any thoughts on this?

Also, please respond to my post about the Neeners in 2002 not being a West Coast O. "Yes, they are" is not a response. Put some thought in to it.

I mentioned in one of my first posts that the Raiders were a rare exception. If you are intimately familiar with the patriots, you might know something I don't, but from what I saw, effective or no, they tried to establish Antwain Smith early in games.

The Niners ran a version of the west coast offense last year because they ran a number of screens, and dropped the ball off short to WRs which they then relied on to break the initial contact.

In fact, as long as we're being picky, how do you defend your assertment that Mooch went to the run because his WRs weren't any good?
 
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