Not OT - The Knicks

[AzStevenCal]

Bill Russell was not a particularly physical player... certainly nothing like his contemporary Wilt Chamberlain. The latter was the reason the league kept widening the lane, not Russell. In fact, the Celtics had various 'hatchet' guys that took the floor when some dirty work was needed. Tom Heinsohn was not in that category but he was notably more physical than Russell.

Bill would be right at home with the run and gun Suns. He'd protect the paint, hammer the boards and throw great outlet passes to the other guys streaking upfloor - just like he did with the Celtics of his day. Sheesh with someone like him, we'd be the odds on favorite to with the title regardless of the refs.

Yes, Wilt Chamberlain was more physical than Bill but to be fair, Wilt was an incredible physical specimen also. In much the same way that Shaq was, he couldn't help but be more physical than his peers (not to equate him to Shaq).

Bill wasn't a dirty player but he wasn't exactly a finesse player either. He was great at establishing and maintaining position down low, something we've never really had from our bigs through the years. But you're right, he'd have been perfect for the SSOL Suns.

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

Many of us bemoan the lack of defense and low post play our Suns typically exhibit. At some point (after 40 plus years of history), perhaps it's time to just admit it's probably never going to change. If that's the case, the best thing that could happen to the Suns championship chances is for the Dantoni style to succeed.

History is on the side of teams playing defense and having a good paint team. That's why they call it history. The Suns best chances of getting a title is to build a team around that style.

Your best chance is not going with a style like DAntoni's that has yet to earn a title........hope his style proves it with another team....then piggy back off that. Doesn't make much sense to me.

If we can't change the Suns culture, perhaps the KNICKS can change the NBA postseason culture. The Suns are never going to be important enough for the NBA to change their postseason refereeing standards but New York is a completely different story. Just imagine a world where the calls made in June are the same ones made in January.

The only way for an entire league culture to change is to have something like that style be adopted by so many teams that it's basically all you see in the playoffs. One team no matter how big the city (like New York) can't change an entire leagues culture. Plus teams have to be motiviated to change. As long as teams keep owning teams that play D'Antoni type basketball....why would they want to change?

We stand a better chance of changing the Suns culture then any D'Antoni lead team getting a title IMO.

 

[AzStevenCal]

History is on the side of teams playing defense and having a good paint team. That's why they call it history. The Suns best chances of getting a title is to build a team around that style.

Your best chance is not going with a style like DAntoni's that has yet to earn a title........hope his style proves it with another team....then piggy back off that. Doesn't make much sense to me.

The only way for an entire league culture to change is to have something like that style be adopted by so many teams that it's basically all you see in the playoffs. One team no matter how big the city (like New York) can't change an entire leagues culture. Plus teams have to be motiviated to change. As long as teams keep owning teams that play D'Antoni type basketball....why would they want to change?

We stand a better chance of changing the Suns culture then any D'Antoni lead team getting a title IMO.

I want the NBA to call the same type of game in postseason play as they do during the regular season. I could care less if Dantoni ever wins a championship. However, if New York puts together a few winning seasons in a row playing Mike's style I do believe you'll see less contact allowed in the playoffs.

That style of ball is fun to watch and has international appeal and it had to have been good for the NBA in general. New York matters to the game, the league, the country and the world in a way that Phoenix could never hope to. Also, these things go in cycles. More contact has always been acceptable in postseason but it's not always to the same extent.

You talk about history and that's fine but the years the Showtime Lakers were dominating the NBA, playoff games were called much differently than during the Shaq and Duncan runs. I simply maintain we have a much better chance succeeding in that type of climate than we do of having the Phoenix Suns finally wake up and begin playing a more traditional style.

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

I want the NBA to call the same type of game in postseason play as they do during the regular season. I could care less if Dantoni ever wins a championship. However, if New York puts together a few winning seasons in a row playing Mike's style I do believe you'll see less contact allowed in the playoffs.

I don't think that is possible. Since most teams tend to slow down and play more methodical to cut down on mistakes. Also, usually the more defensive oriented teams make it deep into the playoffs which by nature slows down the game. I think it has less to do with how the refs call things then it does the teams dictating the pace of the game come playoff time.

That style of ball is fun to watch and has international appeal and it had to have been good for the NBA in general. New York matters to the game, the league, the country and the world in a way that Phoenix could never hope to. Also, these things go in cycles. More contact has always been acceptable in postseason but it's not always to the same extent.

New York might matter but they have sucked for a long time now. So I am not sure there is any revelence to a style being adopted by a bigger market team then a smaller market team. Oh...and when the Suns were tearing up the league they had the attention of the entire league.

So much so we have seen a bunch of D'Antoni style cloned offenses ever since. I don't think having New York run the same style is going to have a bigger impact then we have already seen.

You talk about history and that's fine but the years the Showtime Lakers were dominating the NBA, playoff games were called much differently than during the Shaq and Duncan runs. I simply maintain we have a much better chance succeeding in that type of climate than we do of having the Phoenix Suns finally wake up and begin playing a more traditional style.

First off the rules were different back then and the biggest difference between the Lakers and the Suns were the Lakers could play defense. There is no comparison between that team who could play defense and the DAntoni Suns who really couldn't.

D'Antoni and his style is inconsequential in the big picture IMO. If you want the Suns to win a title our culture has to change. Barring a complete overhaul of the NBA rules allowing offenses to have emphasis then defense, I just don't see it happening.

Last but not least if the DAntoni style of play (with NO DEFENSE) ever became the norm I would stop watching the NBA. European basketball and D'Antonis style makes me sick to my stomach when you see guys letting the opposite team run layup drills.

 

[mojorizen7]

First off the rules were different back then and the biggest difference between the Lakers and the Suns were the Lakers could play defense. There is no comparison between that team who could play defense and the DAntoni Suns who really couldn't.

This very relevant statement usually ends any comparisons in reference to 80's Lakers and D'Antoni's Suns being similiar in style.....unless you close your eyes when both teams run back on D.

Last but not least if the DAntoni style of play (with NO DEFENSE) ever became the norm I would stop watching the NBA. European basketball and D'Antonis style makes me sick to my stomach when you see guys letting the opposite team run layup drills.

Same here,if i wanted basketball to be a thing of beauty to behold and valued it as pure entertainment i'd just stop watching after the regular season.
Its like NFL football vs Arena league football.

 

[Mainstreet]

The Suns could have even played defense if they had the Lakers 80s cast of Kareem, Magic Johnson and defensive specialist Michael Cooper. Obviously comparing the Suns to the 80s Lakers is not fair to the Suns nor the Lakers.

 

[Irish]

My observation is that the Suns preference for speed over power is based on how hard it is to get really talented bigs. It's not just the Suns. The list of teams that have won the championship of the NBA is quite small. Even getting to the finals is something that most teams haven't done, with even fewer since the 70's.

I don't know if Porter was just a bad coach or just a guy who would regquire 4 o5 years go completely rebuild the team in his own image. There is no secret of what he was trying to do, but couldn't even get into the playoffs with his grind it out style.

Porter wented to get the Suns play "playoff style" basketball the whole season, but found that everyone else was doing the same thing and they were better at it. But most teams are not prepared to play a running style for 48 minutes and lose their size advantage when all their bigs are gassed.

Compared to D'Antoni, Geenty takes defense seriously. He's willing to have his wings get involved with defensive rebounding which is wildly different from the D'Antoni style. Gentry knows he has depth and is willing to get guys foul opponents, which D'Antoni wouldn't. While it is easy to say the Suns struggle on defense, but being good at rotations iw crucial.

 

[mojorizen7]

My observation is that the Suns preference for speed over power is based on how hard it is to get really talented bigs.

Disagree.

The list of teams that have won the championship of the NBA is quite small.

Fact...and they're all trying to create the same dynamic year after year: Big man/defense/shooters....unless you go out & get a Jordan,Kobe or LeBron.

But most teams are not prepared to play a running style for 48 minutes and lose their size advantage when all their bigs are gassed.

Most teams don't care to match up against fun n gun because it's November thru April.

Compared to D'Antoni, Gentry takes defense seriously. He's willing to have his wings get involved with defensive rebounding which is wildly different from the D'Antoni style.

Absolutely....but make no mistake...this is still a roster designed to win by outscoring the opposition and generating defense with quickness and tenacity alone.

 

[mojorizen7]

The Suns could have even played defense if they had the Lakers 80s cast of Kareem, Magic Johnson and defensive specialist Michael Cooper. Obviously comparing the Suns to the 80s Lakers is not fair to the Suns nor the Lakers.

But they didn't go get those types of players Mainstreet. They valued players like Tom Chambers,Jeff Hornecek,Wayman Tisdale,Cedric Ceballos,Rex Chapman,Stephon Marbury,Steve Nash,Leandro Barbosa,Amare Stoudemire,Channing Frye(just name a select few).....ALL of them good offensive players(some of them great offensive players),but none of them could play a lick of YMCA defense.

Throw in an AC Green,Kurt Thomas,Shaq O'Neal and a Jared Dudley once a decade and you've got your answer.

This notion that defensive players(especially) and quality bigs haven't been available to the SUNS is over the last 20 years is hogwash. The ongoing excuse every summer is "that guy doesn't fit our system".....**** the system.

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[jagu]

this is a terrifically ignorant statement. Don't you remember Kobe at the Olympics talking about how complex the offense is? How every play has a million variations and ways it can switch? Remember how D'Antoni and the Suns in part lured Nash here? It was with a giant playbook D'Antoni brought.

If you don't like the guy, thats fine. But to say he's not a really good coach or to say his offensive system is "pretty simple" is just stupid and flatly not true.

He isn't a really good coach and all he preaches is to have good offensive plays. Oh great he has a million plays. If he designed atleast one defensive play that you can remotely call good I'd say he is an okay coach. It's not ignorant at all to say its pretty simple to play in a D'Antoni system and that's after watching the system for a long time. The only reason his system succeeded in Phoenix is because he had the talent. Look at what he is doing with his system in NY? Nothing. The guy is a bad coach and I can state my opinions on that without being called ignorant or stupid.

What exactly is his offensive system in NY? I am pretty sure I saw more Knick games than anyone on these boards in D'Antoni's tenure since I'm from NY and just tune in to see basketball. The fact is run-and-gun is all about the PG and Steve Nash does run-n-gun better than anyone in basketball. His system deserves no credit, the players do.

 

[Mainstreet]

My observation is that the Suns preference for speed over power is based on how hard it is to get really talented bigs. It's not just the Suns. The list of teams that have won the championship of the NBA is quite small. Even getting to the finals is something that most teams haven't done, with even fewer since the 70's.

This is an accurate assessment. Most fans understand it is easier to get quality players at the 1-3 positions than it is at the 4-5 positions. It is forgotten by some fans that the Suns have made it to the WCFs often in recent years including last season. This means the Suns have been one of the best four teams in the NBA in 2005, 2006 and 2010. As you say, "the Suns preference for speed over power is based on how hard it is to get really talented bigs."

 

[cly2tw]

Don't think Knicks have it with DA there. Judging from their first pre-season game, Amare's defense deteriorated from last season, right back at DA's Suns level. And their PG is really bad. With Gentry replacing DA, and somehow getting Parker or Paul, would make them contenders though.