none of the guys traded for Goldy or Swanson turned into anything
** Now Official** Blue Jays and D'Backs Trade (Varsho News)
- Thread starter RON_IN_OC
- Start date
If you go by WAR then Swanson was the #12 overall player in all of baseball.
QuebecCard
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Lourdes is an erratic left fielder with an above-average arm for the position. He came up as an infielder but had severe throwing yips. Good contact hitter but runs hot and cold. Given his age and approaching FA, I'd trade him if I were the D-backs.
Moreno is what they say in terms of potential, but still #3 in Toronto and at least a season away from sharing the starting role on a team that has won over 90 games two years in a row and has high hopes.
1a: Danny Jansen (27): 72 games, 215AB, 15hr, 44rbi, 260av., 339obp. (war) 2.9
1b: Alejandro Kirk (24) - catcher/DH: 139 games, 470AB, 14hr, 63rbi, 285av, 372obp (war) 3.9
Even with Moreno off their depth chart, the Blue Jays project to have the majors’ best catching tandem — with Varsho as a third — with a 5.9 fWAR, according to FanGraphs Depth Charts.
The JAYS needed to improve their outfield defence with a left-sided power hitter, and Varsho fits the bill. AL East ballparks are his ideal new confines, and the Jays have four seasons of control. Varsho becomes the Jay's third catcher.
Moreno works for a young rebuilding team, and Varsho works for a team on the cusp.
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Our cheap ass owner wouldn’t have resigned Goldy
Matt L
formerly known as mattyboy
I honestly didn't know he provided that much value last season. I still wouldn't put him over the top middle infielders in MLB
GatorAZ
feed hopkins
Late bloomer but he turned into a star last year. Might’ve been a contract year we’ll see. Big risk by the Cubs.
overseascardfan
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ARZ must have gotten low ball offers from HOU, NYY and others and the fact that just Moreno was a steep price according to guys like La Confora baffles me. Varsho is coming off a 27 HR 80 RBI season and is a great defensive player at two positions and under 30 years old plus under control for another 4 years. I feel we should have gotten another couple of prospects from TOR.
Agreed. Seems like the Dbacks sold low
JerkFace
(Formerly offset) i have a special purpose
I loved Varsho, but I’m not sure if acquiring a top 10 prospect in all of baseball at a premier position is considered selling low.
GatorAZ
feed hopkins
I thought they sold high. Those types of prospects don’t get traded for non-stars.
That said this trade has tremendous backfire potential considering it’s a proven player under control for a prospect. Hazen had to be in love with Moreno to pull the trigger.
Right? And an established player
RON_IN_OC
https://www.ronevansrealty.com
Who does Moreno comp to? Someone like Yadier Molena???
I wanted Murphy for one of our OFs and we got a similar player.
With the new rules on holding runners (only 2 throws) and the wider bases, having elite defense at Catcher isn't a luxury anymore. Those that have it will be at a huge advantage.
With the new rules on holding runners (only 2 throws) and the wider bases, having elite defense at Catcher isn't a luxury anymore. Those that have it will be at a huge advantage.
Here are some bits on him. He played in the Fall League in 2021 and this was his ranking for the league after that. Fall league players that stand out have a great history of success.
1. C Gabriel Moreno, Blue Jays
“He’s a future superstar,” one scout said of Moreno. That billing seems appropriate, given that the 21-year-old Venezuelan ranked as Keith Law’s fifth-best prospect in July. Moreno certainly lived up to that hype in the fall. After destroying Double-A pitching for most of the season, the right-handed hitter batted .329/.410/.494 with 11 doubles in 100 plate appearances. He walked 13 times, matching his strikeout total. Just a little bit of offense from a catcher is a plus these days, but Moreno figures to be an actual good hitter, not just a good hitter for his position.Scouts saw a good approach at the plate. He isn’t cowed by two-strike counts, shortening up a bit while maintaining strength with his wrists. He creates easy backspin when he barrels the ball, and though he managed just one homer in the fall, scouts are confident the power will come as Moreno learns when to turn on a pitch. Moreno did have some issues against sliders late in the fall season, perhaps getting a tad overaggressive as his Mesa Solar Sox team marched toward a championship.
He has more athleticism than his 5-foot-11 and (stingily listed) 160 pounds suggest, and he figures to stick behind the plate. He is quick on his feet and has a quick release when throwing to second. (He also played two games at third this fall.) There might be some things to clean up technically – he could tighten up his receiving a bit, and sometimes got too backhand-happy when he needed to be blocking pitches in the dirt – but that polish will come with time. “The game is so easy for him,” one scout said. Triple-A will be his next test.
My personal comp is Will Smith from the Dodgers for his bat. Potential to be even a better defender.
RON_IN_OC
https://www.ronevansrealty.com
Sounds almost Ivan Rodriguez territory.
In his cup of coffee last year his arm was tested had he threw out 41% of the steal attempts on him. That's inline with his minor league numbers of 37%. Those are excellent numbers.
Law on the trade
The trade would appear to help both clubs, since the Blue Jays did have a surplus behind the plate, and the Diamondbacks have a surplus in the outfield that’s only going to get worse over time. That said, I think I prefer Arizona’s end of the deal, as it took on a bit more risk to get a lot more ceiling – and it gets six years of Moreno versus Toronto getting four of Varsho. Arizona is still building toward contention and is better situated to take on that risk to get a potential superstar in Moreno, while the Blue Jays may have decided to go with the surer thing in their Alejandro Kirk/Danny Jansen catching tandem. Kirk played 78 games at catcher last year and 51 at DH, hitting .285/.372/.415 for a 3.9 rWAR/3.8 fWAR season. Jansen caught 63 games, with three starts at DH, and hit .260/.339/.516 for 2.9 rWAR/2.6 fWAR. Jansen has never been able to stay healthy for a full season, reaching 400 plate appearances only one time in his professional career, in 2017, and I’m not confident at all that he could hold this kind of production if he played every day. He’s in the perfect spot, with Kirk the better hitter and better able to handle the higher workload.
If you’re the Blue Jays, even if you completely believe in Moreno’s potential, the odds of him outproducing the Kirk/Jansen duo in 2023 are just not that high. There were only two 5-WAR catchers in baseball last year per Fangraphs, J.T. Realmuto and the recently traded Sean Murphy. Kirk and Jansen produced 6.4 fWAR between them — although that includes Kirk’s DH time — but even if we conservatively set their total catching value at 5 WAR, you can see how high a bar that is for Moreno to clear right now. I believe he’ll get there in time, but the Blue Jays value winning in 2023-24 over the long term, while Arizona has the luxury of patience and can bet on Moreno becoming that 5-win catcher, even if it doesn’t come for a few years. The D-Backs have the better chance to end up with more total value out of the trade, but the Blue Jays are clearly a better team right now than they were before the deal, as Varsho is at least a 3-win upgrade over Gurriel if we just assume he takes over in a corner; and if Kevin Kiermaier gets hurt the Jays now have a viable alternative in center. Each of these teams had a surplus of good players and made a very old-fashioned sort of trade that leaves both clubs better off. What a concept.
The trade would appear to help both clubs, since the Blue Jays did have a surplus behind the plate, and the Diamondbacks have a surplus in the outfield that’s only going to get worse over time. That said, I think I prefer Arizona’s end of the deal, as it took on a bit more risk to get a lot more ceiling – and it gets six years of Moreno versus Toronto getting four of Varsho. Arizona is still building toward contention and is better situated to take on that risk to get a potential superstar in Moreno, while the Blue Jays may have decided to go with the surer thing in their Alejandro Kirk/Danny Jansen catching tandem. Kirk played 78 games at catcher last year and 51 at DH, hitting .285/.372/.415 for a 3.9 rWAR/3.8 fWAR season. Jansen caught 63 games, with three starts at DH, and hit .260/.339/.516 for 2.9 rWAR/2.6 fWAR. Jansen has never been able to stay healthy for a full season, reaching 400 plate appearances only one time in his professional career, in 2017, and I’m not confident at all that he could hold this kind of production if he played every day. He’s in the perfect spot, with Kirk the better hitter and better able to handle the higher workload.
If you’re the Blue Jays, even if you completely believe in Moreno’s potential, the odds of him outproducing the Kirk/Jansen duo in 2023 are just not that high. There were only two 5-WAR catchers in baseball last year per Fangraphs, J.T. Realmuto and the recently traded Sean Murphy. Kirk and Jansen produced 6.4 fWAR between them — although that includes Kirk’s DH time — but even if we conservatively set their total catching value at 5 WAR, you can see how high a bar that is for Moreno to clear right now. I believe he’ll get there in time, but the Blue Jays value winning in 2023-24 over the long term, while Arizona has the luxury of patience and can bet on Moreno becoming that 5-win catcher, even if it doesn’t come for a few years. The D-Backs have the better chance to end up with more total value out of the trade, but the Blue Jays are clearly a better team right now than they were before the deal, as Varsho is at least a 3-win upgrade over Gurriel if we just assume he takes over in a corner; and if Kevin Kiermaier gets hurt the Jays now have a viable alternative in center. Each of these teams had a surplus of good players and made a very old-fashioned sort of trade that leaves both clubs better off. What a concept.
QuebecCard
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