Official 2008 Olympics Swimming Thread

[D-Dogg]

5 races. 5 gold. 5 world records.

Unfrigginbelievable.

 

[Gee!]

Why are these races live for damn near everyone else in the country but the west coast? No offense to mens gymnastics, but I would much rather watch Phelps pursuit of history than chinese men doing gymnastics.

From azcentral today..

If you're wondering why we're not getting live coverage three hours earlier, it's fairly simple. NBC can charge more for advertising during prime time, when more people are watching. The audience at 5 p.m., when the only sport most people are concerned with is freeway negotiation, is smaller than it is later in the evening, when we're home and glued to the couch. More people means a bigger audience, which means more expensive advertising rates, which means more money for NBC.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2008/08/13/20080813olycontroversy.html

 

[slinslin]

Tell me what you want but Phelps isn't clean (like most uber-succesful pro athletes).
There are always methods to enhance your perfomance which can't be detected.

 

[Nate]

Tell me what you want but Phelps isn't clean (like most uber-succesful pro athletes).
There are always methods to enhance your perfomance which can't be detected.

Psssssssst - Genau! But still, Phelps is way better than all the others who potentially have the same PEDs at hand.

 

[Russ Smith]

Tell me what you want but Phelps isn't clean (like most uber-succesful pro athletes).
There are always methods to enhance your perfomance which can't be detected.

I don't know I've become so skeptical of anybody these days but Phelps is one guy I think probably is clean. He doesn't look different from the other swimmers he's not bigger he's not in any way standing out, he's just faster than they are.

I tend to doubt Dara Torres is clean but for good reason, she looks different than any of her peers, when you realize she's 10-20 years older than her peers it just makes me suspicious that she can be that much bigger and stronger. I see the workout program but I know drugs allow you to train harder and recover faster. Would really surprise me if she's clean.

Phelps looks like everyone else, he's just faster. Nothing would shock me anymore but right now he's the one guy that I tend to assume is clean, in most other cases I just assume they're dirty.

 

[D-Dogg]

Phelps is just good. Not enhanced...just fanatical about working out, training and improving. he's DRIVEN, not drugged.

Or is Tiger Woods not clean? Jordan? Kobe? Some guys just take the job far more seriously than anyone else, and believe in working their asses to the bone to win...combine that with sick talent and there you go.

 

[Nate]

Phelps is just good. Not enhanced...just fanatical about working out, training and improving. he's DRIVEN, not drugged.

Or is Tiger Woods not clean? Jordan? Kobe? Some guys just take the job far more seriously than anyone else, and believe in working their asses to the bone to win...combine that with sick talent and there you go.

Yeah, just ask Lance or Jan Ullrich or all the male 100m track and field medalists of the past 20 years.

By the way, if you just train harder than everybody else, chances are high that you are overworking your body and your performance suffers instead of getting better. This only changes if you are able to somehow shorten your recovery cycle and lenghten the time to exhaustion. Thats where PEDs are so effective. They do just that perfectly. They allow you to train harder than before.

 

[slinslin]

Yeah and Lance Armstrong was also clean.

/sarcasm

 

[Russ Smith]

Yeah and Lance Armstrong was also clean.

/sarcasm

Well it wouldn't stun me if Phelps cheated but I also suspect if he did there'd be competitors out there saying so. In Lance's case there's been so many reports from ex teammates, coaches, competitors, masseuses etc that frankly I can't fathom how anybody can believe Lance anymore.

With Phelps admittedly swimming is only high profile once every 4 years, but you don't hear anything. Torres on the other hand has been accused of doping for years now, she was accused in her mid 30's and still is now.

You never know but the thing with Phelps is he doesn't look different which is usually one of the tell tale signs.

 

[D-Dogg]

Well it wouldn't stun me if Phelps cheated but I also suspect if he did there'd be competitors out there saying so. In Lance's case there's been so many reports from ex teammates, coaches, competitors, masseuses etc that frankly I can't fathom how anybody can believe Lance anymore.

With Phelps admittedly swimming is only high profile once every 4 years, but you don't hear anything. Torres on the other hand has been accused of doping for years now, she was accused in her mid 30's and still is now.
You never know but the thing with Phelps is he doesn't look different which is usually one of the tell tale signs.

co-sign

 

[abomb]

co-sign

Both Torres and Phelps have signed off on having their samples held for at least seven years, so that the advances in testing can be used to test their samples at a future date.

 

[Nate]

We are in agreement that Phelps is just better as the rest. I think that (knowing the results of various studies and some first hand tries/ was on PEDs when recovering from injury/ former sports science student) as a clean athlet you dont stand a chance and you certainly dont dominate against other good athletes when some of them are using some combination of the stuff that is widely available.

So either believe that everybody is clean (which is kind of ridiculous if you take a look at other endurance/power sports) or just think about the possibility that Phelps as well as most of the other top swimmers is (from time to time - not necessarily during a competition period) using illegal substances (maybe his own blood/blood doping is illegal and there is no way to prove it). The gain is just to great and the risk of detection is minimal.

To give you some parameters to understand the effect of PEDs:

Brigitte Behrendonk, a former German shot put athlet and now a biologist who is married with the most acknowledged German Doping researcher, has published some books in the 1990s which contain her own experiences as well as studies done by coaches of then East Germany with anabolic steroids. The data which is published stems from the archives of the National Security Services of East Germany and should be reliable.

Examples for the effect of the anabolic steroid oral-turinabol for a female shot putter during the season:

in April (clean): 18,50m
she then takes relatively high dosage of oral-turinabol during a max-power training cycle
in May: about 19,60m

She continues with lower dosage of oral-turinabol during a cycle in which she tries to adapt her technique and timing to the power gain
end of June: 20,40m

The athlete in question is Margitta Gummel, the first female German shot-putter who took two tablets of 10mg Turinabol daily and in only eleven weeks improved her personal best at about 2 meters after a longer phase of stagnation.

There are studies out there who show similar but lower effects for blood doping and epo use. Todays athlete cant use the dosages of former times but therefore they usually mix up a few of the ingredients and micro-dose them to lower the detection time to as low as 6h. Then there is HGC which isnt even theoretically detectable and quite a lot of other banned substances which as well cannot be detected.

Dream your dream of dope-free serial Olympic Gold medalists in sports like swimming, athletics or weight-lifting or just cope with what professional sports have been like since at least the mid sixties.

 

[Russ Smith]

Dream your dream of dope-free serial Olympic Gold medalists in sports like swimming, athletics or weight-lifting or just cope with what professional sports have been like since at least the mid sixties.

Oh I am sure there are people doping in the Olympics but they test for EPO now if I'm not mistaken? I think the primary things that have been used in the past by swimmers were EPO and steroids. I remember the Chinese team several years ago showed up at some world event and just killed, they were hounded by drug rumors, had this great story about some coach using "ancient Chinese herbs" and within a few months they'd all tested positive and got banned.

Phelps doesn't look the part of a steroid guy he's quite lean, maybe HGH is believable? EPO I'm not sure how good the tests are but I know they caught people in the TDF doping with it this year and my recollection is they use the same tests in the Olympics. So if Phelps is using EPO he'll either get caught or he's figured how to mask it.

There's always the possibility of another balco situation which is frankly what I think is the case with Torres. I think she is probably using some designer steroid that can't be tested for and is banking that unlike Balco, nobody will ever catch on.

The offering to bank their specimens stuff leaves me pretty unimpressed remember what happened when testing old samples from the TDF turned up that Armstrong had EPO in a bunch of his 1999 samples? They went after the lab and the tests and most of the world believed Armstrong completely ignoring that they didn't even know whose sample they were testing until after they had the results. I think if 5 years from now Torres' old sample were to test positive for something she would do the same thing, claim it was tampered with.

now if we bring up track yeah I tend to assume in the sprints and weight events that essentially all the top people have just not been caught yet.

 

[Dback Jon]

Phelps is not on EPO - if he was, he'd have a heart attack mid-backstroke...

 

[Nate]

According to Wilfried Schaenzer, director of the institut of biochemistry of the German Sport University in Cologne and head of one of the WADA-accreditet Labs, there are quite a lot of EPO-variants available which cant be detected at the moment.

Typical Epo which is microdosaged can only be detected during a time window of between six to twenty-four hours after application, usually less. While not detectable after that time, it still hightens the haematocrit level for quite some time and therefore shortens recovery times and enhances performance. The cyclists caught during the Tour used CERA, one of many Epo-variants which couldnt be proven till the end of May/early June. Since the authorities didnt tell anybody about the new detection method, they were able to catch a few of the riders using it. CERA is usually applicated only every two weeks and in contrast to basic EPO is detectable even weeks after application.

Edit: There are quite a lot of drug tests which show abnormal blood values which clearly indicate blood doping and/or Epo-use. But there is a big difference for testers between proven Epo-usage and having clear indications through abnormal blood values. This is according to Daarmsgard, Schaenzer and others, leading anti-doping scientists.

 

[D-Dogg]

5 races. 5 gold. 5 world records.

Unfrigginbelievable.

6 races. 6 gold. 6 world records.

Wow. It is getting surreal.

 

[Russ Smith]

6 races. 6 gold. 6 world records.

Wow. It is getting surreal.

And if I read correctly event 7 is his specialty.

Now we're going to get the Spitz controversy it already started yesterday. Spitz isn't attending the games, he said they didn't invite me why should someone of my stature have to go on their own as a regular spectator.
People think he should be there to "pass the torch" to Phelps if he gets 8 golds.

Not much Phelps can do just keep winning and keep being classy about it and let people talk about Spitz on their own.

 

[Linderbee]

Amy Van Dyken can't stand Spitz, from her own personal experiences with him. She was ragging on him on the radio here this morning (she's on a local a.m. morning show here)

 

[Russ Smith]

Amy Van Dyken can't stand Spitz, from her own personal experiences with him. She was ragging on him on the radio here this morning (she's on a local a.m. morning show here)

I almost hated to bring it up but yahoo had a big article on him yesterday. he basically said if they had the 50 free in 1972 he would have won 8 golds anyways. That it's insulting that they didn't fly him to the Olympics to be there in case Phelps gets 8, a bunch of other self serving things. He really comes off as arrogant. Great swimmer for sure but he is acting like Mercury Morris last year when the Pats were trying to go unbeaten like the 72 Dolphins.

Maybe it's something about 1972?

 

[Linderbee]

I almost hated to bring it up but yahoo had a big article on him yesterday. he basically said if they had the 50 free in 1972 he would have won 8 golds anyways. That it's insulting that they didn't fly him to the Olympics to be there in case Phelps gets 8, a bunch of other self serving things. He really comes off as arrogant. Great swimmer for sure but he is acting like Mercury Morris last year when the Pats were trying to go unbeaten like the 72 Dolphins.

Maybe it's something about 1972?

Yeah, I hear all the people born that year are a bunch of jackasses, too.

(I'm 36)

 

[Renz]

I almost hated to bring it up but yahoo had a big article on him yesterday. he basically said if they had the 50 free in 1972 he would have won 8 golds anyways. That it's insulting that they didn't fly him to the Olympics to be there in case Phelps gets 8, a bunch of other self serving things. He really comes off as arrogant. Great swimmer for sure but he is acting like Mercury Morris last year when the Pats were trying to go unbeaten like the 72 Dolphins.

Spitz could have gone about it differently, but essentially, he's right.

Until Phelps, Spitz was the greatest swimmer in Olympic history. The USOC or US Swimming couldn't extend Spitz a formal invitation and pay his way to Beijing? Spitz is supposed to pay his own way and then sit up in the nosebleed seats somewhere by himself? That is insulting for, until now, the greatest swimmer in history.

Spitz should have perhaps been a bit more gracious and humble, but the way he was treated by the USOC is shameful, IMO. Our society seems to expect the old record-holders to show up and "pass the torch", but that doesn't mean we have to diminish the accomplishments of the old guard.

 

[Russ Smith]

Spitz could have gone about it differently, but essentially, he's right.

Until Phelps, Spitz was the greatest swimmer in Olympic history. The USOC or US Swimming couldn't extend Spitz a formal invitation and pay his way to Beijing? Spitz is supposed to pay his own way and then sit up in the nosebleed seats somewhere by himself? That is insulting for, until now, the greatest swimmer in history.

Spitz should have perhaps been a bit more gracious and humble, but the way he was treated by the USOC is shameful, IMO. Our society seems to expect the old record-holders to show up and "pass the torch", but that doesn't mean we have to diminish the accomplishments of the old guard.

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/swimming/news?slug=cr-spitz081408&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


I won't paste the whole thing the author implies that Spitz has sort of worn out his welcome in the past he's apparently a real egomaniac and has been complaining for years about various things so it's sort of people got sick of listening to him situation.

And the author also points out several other former Olympic champs have had to pay their own way and didn't get great seats either so Spitz certainly could have done so.

I also read something about 2 weeks ago that said Spitz had actually declined an earlier offer and that he actually has an issue with Phelps because Phelps was quoted as saying he wants to be the first Michael Phelps not the next Mark Spitz. The Yahoo article above mentions that quote too so I assume there's some truth to it that Spitz has a bone to pick with Phelps.

Let's face it a lot of great athletes have huge egos it has a lot to do with why they succeed, I just think Spitz is sort of demanding people celebrate him instead of celebrating what Phelps is doing. As they point out it's significanlty harder to do what Phelps is doing because it's MUCH more competitive in swimming these days than it was in 1972.

 

[D-Dogg]

Spitz could have gone about it differently, but essentially, he's right.

Until Phelps, Spitz was the greatest swimmer in Olympic history. The USOC or US Swimming couldn't extend Spitz a formal invitation and pay his way to Beijing? Spitz is supposed to pay his own way and then sit up in the nosebleed seats somewhere by himself? That is insulting for, until now, the greatest swimmer in history.

Spitz should have perhaps been a bit more gracious and humble, but the way he was treated by the USOC is shameful, IMO. Our society seems to expect the old record-holders to show up and "pass the torch", but that doesn't mean we have to diminish the accomplishments of the old guard.

It's probably because he's a jackass. Some athletes personalities (rick barry) kind of push them away from things that would normally be done. If he was a gracious, "plays well with others" type guy, they probably would have thought to invite him. Just speculating, of course.

 

[D-Dogg]

It's probably because he's a jackass. Some athletes personalities (rick barry) kind of push them away from things that would normally be done. If he was a gracious, "plays well with others" type guy, they probably would have thought to invite him. Just speculating, of course.

Timely.

 

[Dback Jon]

Yes, but Phelps will never get a guest appearance on the Sonny and Cher show.