BleedingPurple
Suffering Fan
FischerKing said:
But Shawn, what of the millions who saw the movie and thought it all truth? Many went home more confused than ever. There were all too many who went to see it because they wanted to see the violence, while others went out of peer pressure or because they idolize Mel Gibson.
FischerKing said:
Are you the person preaching the Word of God or are you relying on occultic mysticism to do the work for you? Even, as I pointed out, MSNBC saw through the movie, and I've not known MSNBC, or the History Channel, or HBO or PBS to provide an accurate representation of complete Scripture.
FischerKing said:
Most of the movie goers did not have Jesus in them. They went to be part of a cultural phenomenon, not to be saved or even learn much. Yet they did learn something about the teachings of Anne Catherine Emmerich and those of the Apocryphal books.
And, in reference to your use of portions of John 17, don't forget that Satan himself believes that the Father sent His Son.
FischerKing said:
The point is simple. For the most part, Christianity is divided into groups - the group you're in, and all the rest. And there is a difference, in the way they look at things, based on how tightly they cleave to the Bible. And, believe it or not, many hold more tightly to the ways of man, rather than the Word of God, using portions of the Word only as a tool to rationalize their man-made ways.
The True Gospel Christian - What are the requirements to go to heaven? There is only one requirement. That is that your sins must be forgiven. The only thing that separates us from God is that we are guilty of sin. Believing in Christ Jesus means that one does not flaunt sin and does not willingly partake in sin, nor condones the sin of others. This type of believer strives to know all of God's Word and tends to abhor things like this movie or the ecumenical apostasies of Campus Crusade's The Jesus Film Project. This type of believer is also frequently called First Century or Foundational.
The Group of the Baptism - There are those who say that in order to be forgiven of sin, you must be baptized and follow the commandments of Christ. In the book of Galatians, Paul writes of a group of people he calls the group of the circumcision. These were those who taught the you must believe in Christ to be saved, but you must also be circumcised and follow the Law of Moses. Paul's attitude Galatians 1:6-8. This type of believer tends to appear holy, while doing their own thing while others are looking. Instead of teaching, they find things which make themselves appear above others, using only portions of Scripture. They attack the man instead of attacking a false belief, while adding to Scripture. While often confused with True Gospel Christians, they are not, even though they will also be found confronting the heresies of man-made creations, like The Passion movie. Often, different sects of Fundamentalism and Pentecostalism fall under this banner, as did the Pharisees.
Catholicism - There are also those who believe that only the sins that you confess are forgiven. They believe that every time you sin, you lose your salvation, and can only gain it back by confessing your sin, asking for forgiveness, and working it all off. Their basis is loosely on Scripture, but more so on Apocryphal books and the inclusion of Pagan rituals; both creations of man. The origins of ecumenism can be found here and are strong, using the attitude of 'live and let live'. Unlike the previous two groups, this one tends to be one of the most defensive of their faith, while knowing the least about what it really teaches. Prone to not only accepting the easy spiritual highs of works like The Passion, but also to embrace them and hold them up as the end all of teaching works. The influences and conveniences of this teaching can be found in many non-Catholic groups, as well.
Faith in Faith - These are those who agree, "yes, faith alone saves". But then rather than have Christ's atoning work on the cross as the object of their faith, they put their faith in their own faith. They speak highly of faith as if faith itself was an object. They will accept nearly any worldly teaching, since they believe that their faith in their faith is strong enough. This group is also prone to accepting and promoting false doctrine, since they feel that believing in their faith is good enough, yet they don't love God enough to learn what He wants from us. "Yes, I believe in God, so He'll forgive all of my sins, including the ones I plan on doing tomorrow" seems to be somewhat of a convenient mantra for this group. Will go to see the Passion Movie and possibly skip church, because they feel they already had their Bible study of the week, which is more than they often did in the past year anyway.
Antinomianism - Those who say they believe, but then don't apply their faith. They say they believe Christ died for their sins, but then refuse to recognize sin that in their own lives separates them from God. They are comfortable with living a lifestyle of sin. They refuse to obey Christ's commands and all of His teachings. They refuse to change their behavior. Does such faith save? For though they say they believe, they don't. For if they believed, then they would have considered the implications and applications of their faith. The quality of faith that saves is simply real faith. If you are believing the right thing, then I simply ask you do you really believe it? For faith without applications is not saving faith. It is true that as believers we don't put our faith in the applications of our faith to save us, such as obedience to Christ's commands, but rather we treat Christ as our Lord because it is appropriate to do so. Since we reckon we who have believed are children of God, therefore we try to behave that way, not in order to have our sins forgiven, for by faith we already consider our sins as having been forgiven. But rather we try to behave properly because we know who we are and what our destiny is. Tendencies of this group can be found in most other groups. Since they sin and don't care about remaining separate from the ways of the world, the followers of this group will be found at the front of the ticket line.
Augustinianism - Often referred to as one of the "fathers of the Catholic church, Augustine of Hippo was actually the father of Calvinism; those who believe that God chose them and that all others will burn in the fires of Hell, regardless of what they do or believe. Jean Cauvin (John Calvin) got the credit for this manmade theology, because he was a Catholic clergyman who was part of the Reformation. This group tends to lean on the concept of Christian Liberty, since they believe that, as predestined people, they cannot be denied a place in Heaven. This group tends to be academically higher in Scripture than most of the other groups, using their knowledge to intimidate others - they are the Bible Geeks, yet they don't always comprehend the entirety of God's Word, concentrating on defending their interpretation of a few passages. As a group, they tend to be split on things along the lines of The Passion films and other man-made productions. Some, due to their academic prowess with passages of Scripture, will say you should stay away from these things. Others, due to their belief that they have Christian Liberty, they can do whatever they please and will go to see the movie just because they want to.
While there will be found true believers in all of the above groups, only the first one avoids adding and subtracting from God's Word. The rest base their beliefs largely on the teachings of man, instead of the teachings of God, often out of convenience and sometimes out of fear. And, while all are usually considered "Christian', the groups themselves (not necessarily the individuals) are not always based in Christianity.
So you see, Shawn, there is basis in determining with whom I was speaking to, especially when you indicated ministry credentials. There are many false teachers and multiple false prophets out there - just because someone goes to church, claims to be Christian or is a minister holds no water. If their teaching is in error, it is in error, no matter what they claim to be. The Bereans questioned Jesus because of His claims and were satisfied when what He told them and taught them held up to the light of Scripture.
I can't help but notice your quotation of 1 Corinthians 10, yet you confined your reference to verses 23-33. Why not include the first 22 verses, for better understanding of the passage?
Here is 1 Corinthians 10, in its entirety, from verse 1 through 33, with emphasis provided by me:
- Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
- And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
- And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
- And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
- But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
- Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
- Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
- Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
- Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
- Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
- Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
- Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
- There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
- Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
- I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
- The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
- For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
- Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?
- What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
- But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
- Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
- Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
- All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
- Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.
- Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
- For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
- If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
- But if any man say unto you, this is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
- Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
- For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
- Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
- Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
- Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
Shawn, 1 Corinthians 10 IS a warning not to abuse our spiritual privileges. It is NOT an admonishment to those who question the biblical basis of another's beliefs.
Going back to the literal of verse 6, the Greek text says, if I might coin a word, “that we should not be cravers (those who crave) of evil things.” “Crave” is a noun which means, “one who craves.” The Greek word, epiqumhths is an intensive compound noun. It comes from one word, “upon,” and another word, “to desire.” It means to keep your desire fixed upon something. This noun, plus the present tense of the verb “to be,” in the verb that follows (epiqumew), describes this as an enduring disposition, state, or condition of the heart or mind, a condition of greed or craving of the heart.
This brings out the principles of (a) insatiability and (b) loss of control. Things never satisfy or fulfill as we expect or hope, and in our pursuit of them they can literally dominate us. When we crave something, it creates a mad and fruitless search for happiness and fulfillment in the thing desired which it can never provide.
- When we lust for things we are in essence worshipping and seeking our happiness, security, and meaning in those details regardless of their nature—position, power, prestige, possession, pleasure, etc.
- When we lust for things, we are at the same time operating under the demonic and human delusion that things have the god-like ability to bring happiness and security and significant, etc. The one who craves something treats that something as if it were God with the capacity to make him or her happy and secure. This is a form of idolatry.
What we must not fail to grasp is that craving things or partaking in things not of Gog, stems from a deeper root problem, from wrong perspectives, values, belief systems, and priorities.
So, when our perspectives, belief systems, values, and priorities are wrong, we become like Israel who craved evil things. Of course, some of what they craved was not evil in itself, but it became evil because they put it before the Lord. Here is a spiritual and psychological law. Our view or perspective of life and what we believe will make us happy and secure always determines our values, our values in turn always determine our goals, and our goals always determine our pursuits, that for which we thirst. Either we are those who thirst after righteousness, or we are those who crave after evil things. And all of this determines our manner of life, our behavior.
- For the concept of our perspectives compare Matthew 6:19-20; I Peter 1:13; and Luke 12:15, 23.
- For that of our values compare Matthew 6:21; and I Peter 1:18-19.
- For the concept of priorities compare Matthew 6:33; I Peter 1:17.
Now an important question: What exactly do the evil things include? Were they evil in themselves? As mentioned, no, not always. Israel craved the past pleasures of Egypt as summarized in their cry, “Give us meat to eat” (Numbers 11:4-34; cf. especially verses 33-34). In principle however, the evil things refer to two categories:
- That which is always evil and contrary to the will of God, like idolatry, immorality, etc.,
- It may also refer to that which in itself is not evil, but which becomes evil because of our disposition toward the thing desired.
Some things may be legitimate in and of themselves like eating meat that has been sacrificed to idols, but it may not God’s will for us because of other principles that apply. Will it cause a brother to stumble, or have I become obsessed with it? If so, then it becomes evil. God knows what is best for us, and if we continue to desire to do, or partake in, something wrong, He may allow us to do it, but the results are often bad (Psalm 106:15).
Summarizing it all, using your concept of which kind of person you'd recommend the movie to - let's say you have a an elementary school textbook. It is a history reference, but there is something very wrong with this book. Only one in ten items listed are factual. The other nine are complete lies. Would you let someone use this book, hoping they will know the correct from the wrong? I hope not, since if they are not yet educated on the matter, they won't know what is right and what is fallacy. Would you give it to someone who is an expert in the field? Again, I would think not, since their perception of you and your knowledge would probably take a hit.
Chances are, you'd probably trash the book and get a better one. It is what I would do. It is the same idea which should be used with things such as The Passion movie, since it is fundamentally wrong.
