Oh My ........ They are retaining a lot of assistant coaches

ajcardfan

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Quite frankly I'd argue they shouldn't have won more than 6 games but I think they drastically improved as the season went on. They put in Young, found a way to make him work, resurrected the career of Travis Henry, alot of that is probably attributable to Norm Chow?

Come on Russ.

I'm not saying he had no impact on Young. But, what made Young special this season was not coachable. I mean he made fabulous runs to win games with less than 100 yards passing. Hell, they won a game with less than 100 yards TOTAL.

All of that said, I do think he would click with Leinart. But, can he be the overall leader a head coach has to be? That's my concern.
 

Russ Smith

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They scored 8 TDs via special teams and defense to our 4. That's the difference. Offensively, we had a slight edge.

The main difference is we choked most close games, they pulled some out. I'd put that down to the difference between having Green vs. Fisher.

Somewhat agree but compare our offensive personnel to theirs and ask yourself which you'd pick?
 

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Agreed but he has been interviewed for a HC job before.

For the record, the Titans scored 10 more points than we did. They were outscored by 76 points, us by 75, and they won 3 more games than we did.

Quite frankly I'd argue they shouldn't have won more than 6 games but I think they drastically improved as the season went on. They put in Young, found a way to make him work, resurrected the career of Travis Henry, alot of that is probably attributable to Norm Chow?

I think if I'm bidwill and I am convinced I have the right Qb, right WR's, right RB, Chow looks awfully intriguing.

I agree it's a risk, not in any way saying we SHOULD hire him, just I suspect that's the way we're leaning.

Fair enough. Maybe it is Chow, but I tend to think defense and Vince Young in Tennessee's turnaround. I also think the Chow- Leinart connection is probably intriguing to the Bidwills, which makes your theory even more probable.

Honestly, I cant get super excited over any HC b/c I just dont have any confidence that AZ can win with the same management structure. Looking at all these candidates, none of them super-excite me. Maybe Whisenhut, but I bet he goes to ATL or takes over for Cowhere if he leaves Pit.

I dunno. Chow just doesnt do it for me.
 

ajcardfan

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Somewhat agree but compare our offensive personnel to theirs and ask yourself which you'd pick?

I'd take ours obviously. I'd also take 7 TDs from the QB rushing too, if I could get them.

I'm not arguing the guy as an offensive coach. I'd be excited as heck if he was going to be OC. But, he's could very well be head coach, a different task entirely.
 

conraddobler

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Fair enough. Maybe it is Chow, but I tend to think defense and Vince Young in Tennessee's turnaround. I also think the Chow- Leinart connection is probably intriguing to the Bidwills, which makes your theory even more probable.

Honestly, I cant get super excited over any HC b/c I just dont have any confidence that AZ can win with the same management structure. Looking at all these candidates, none of them super-excite me. Maybe Whisenhut, but I bet he goes to ATL or takes over for Cowhere if he leaves Pit.

I dunno. Chow just doesnt do it for me.

I'll reserve myself further until after FA and the draft, let's see how this goes, I want to see what happens to Big, who we hire, what the plan is and who we draft or aquire, then I'll predict what will happen based on that.

Rod Graves, shock me, draft well, keep the right players and most of all just win.
 

Russ Smith

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Come on Russ.

I'm not saying he had no impact on Young. But, what made Young special this season was not coachable. I mean he made fabulous runs to win games with less than 100 yards passing. Hell, they won a game with less than 100 yards TOTAL.

All of that said, I do think he would click with Leinart. But, can he be the overall leader a head coach has to be? That's my concern.

I agree, that's my concern can he be a HC, I have no idea. But a few months ago "insiders" were reporting that Young wasn't going to be ready to play for 2 years and that Fisher and Chow were furious that they were forced to take Young.

I think Chow got a lot more out of Young than anybody expected, that's why the Falcons are interested they think he can do the same thing with Vick.

I'm just saying the guy did a very good job with the Titans with very little talent in the passing game, especially at WR. If I'm Bidwill and I already know and like the guy, and I look at my current roster, Chow is going to be very high on my list of guys I think could be plugged into the existing team and make it better quickly.

He wouldn't be my first choice, but if the team intends to try and plug someone into an existing team, he makes a lot of sense.
 

Russ Smith

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Fair enough. Maybe it is Chow, but I tend to think defense and Vince Young in Tennessee's turnaround. I also think the Chow- Leinart connection is probably intriguing to the Bidwills, which makes your theory even more probable.

Honestly, I cant get super excited over any HC b/c I just dont have any confidence that AZ can win with the same management structure. Looking at all these candidates, none of them super-excite me. Maybe Whisenhut, but I bet he goes to ATL or takes over for Cowhere if he leaves Pit.

I dunno. Chow just doesnt do it for me.

I looked it up, Titans allowed 21 less points this year than last, and scored 25 more. Looks like it was both ways plus the special teams. Frankly they were lucky to win 8 games, they shouldn't have based on points.
 

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We have heard this line towed before. Just because a coach understands a scheme doesn't mean he can teach it to his players any more effectivley. If our ST's continue to suck, do you really think the players, HC ownership and fans alike are really going to be falling back on the fact that the coach in question knows the system?

Solomon seemed to understand the system and yet I'm not sorry to see him go. That's the same with a number of the guys let go. The 'system' is/can be changed and altered to fit the personnel of the team and the opponent. It isn't set in stone.

That's why, as Graves and Mike B pointed out, that there will be an evaluation process to see which coaches will be retained and which won't be.

How about does Pendergast have experince with the tampa 2 (yes, considering have used the cover 2 a number of times)? Would he be able to coach it? Could Pendergast coach LB's like he has in the past? Can he work with Rivera? etc

It isn't black and white.



Considering we don't even know who the HC is and who will be retained -maybe everyone is getting a bit ahead of themselves here?


All I can say to you is when a HC is hired it isnt just the person it is his plan, his vision if you will. Included as an integral part of that vision is the assistant coaches who have worked there way up with him, know the vision they are going after, and know what to expect from each and every player.

Asking a coach to join a team and not allowing him to bring his assistant is a smack in the face. And tat is why it is rarely if ever done. The first thing a HC does when changing jobs or accepting his position, is put his staff together.

Most HC worth their salt, are indebted to their assistants for executing on a plan that has gotten them where they are now. It really is that black and white. Richard Solomon and Hargraves mean nothing to me. I am talking about OC/DC and Assistant head coach. Those are the big 3. They are entrusted by the HC to know and understand every nuiansce (sp) of their system. Bringing in a HC and saying by the way Pendy is your DC is assinine-whether Pendy is great or not.

Now there are head coaches who will take the job but, those coaches-like Chow I assume-would do it to get a HC job. Is that really what you want?
 

LVCARDFREAK

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I think Chow got a lot more out of Young than anybody expected, that's why the Falcons are interested they think he can do the same thing with Vick.

.

But did he? I mean w/o looking up stats seems Young pretty much did what he has been doing in college for 3 years. Pass if you can, pocket breaks down, run.

Maybe I am over simplifying it, but what did Chow do? Simplify the offense? Call specific plays for Young? I dunno. The games I watched seem like the same VY to me-put the team on his back and win games.
 

Russ Smith

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But did he? I mean w/o looking up stats seems Young pretty much did what he has been doing in college for 3 years. Pass if you can, pocket breaks down, run.

Maybe I am over simplifying it, but what did Chow do? Simplify the offense? Call specific plays for Young? I dunno. The games I watched seem like the same VY to me-put the team on his back and win games.

Look at all the preseason comments about how raw young was. then look, 66.7 passer rating, 12 td's 13 int's, those are pretty good numbers for any rookie QB starting, for a guy who everyone said would take longer because he was a running QB, very good. Lousy %(just under 52), not a ton of big plays downfield, but I think they found a way to use his strengths and hide his weaknesses. ANd I think they were smart enough to realize they couldn't plug him into the same offense that Chow ran at USC and expect him to run it.

I'm not declaring the guy a genius but the prevailing opinion here, and everywhere when Young became the starting QB was, the Titans are going to lose most of the games, have a very high draft pick, and look foolish for playing Young. Alot of that credit is to Vince, a lot to Fisher, but a lot of it has to go to Chow too it was his offense.
 

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But did he? I mean w/o looking up stats seems Young pretty much did what he has been doing in college for 3 years. Pass if you can, pocket breaks down, run.

Maybe I am over simplifying it, but what did Chow do? Simplify the offense? Call specific plays for Young? I dunno. The games I watched seem like the same VY to me-put the team on his back and win games.

For as simple an offense as he ran at Texas -- to show up and not throw a million interceptions in his first year is amazing.

I never doubted Young would run well, but I was certain that the first year his interceptions would be measured by the dozen--

instead he goes 13 tds passing to 12 ints --

keep in mind, we are all thrilled with Matts 11td/12 int rookie performance (as we should be)
 

LVCARDFREAK

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Look at all the preseason comments about how raw young was. then look, 66.7 passer rating, 12 td's 13 int's, those are pretty good numbers for any rookie QB starting, for a guy who everyone said would take longer because he was a running QB, very good. Lousy %(just under 52), not a ton of big plays downfield, but I think they found a way to use his strengths and hide his weaknesses. ANd I think they were smart enough to realize they couldn't plug him into the same offense that Chow ran at USC and expect him to run it.

I'm not declaring the guy a genius but the prevailing opinion here, and everywhere when Young became the starting QB was, the Titans are going to lose most of the games, have a very high draft pick, and look foolish for playing Young. Alot of that credit is to Vince, a lot to Fisher, but a lot of it has to go to Chow too it was his offense.

Maybe. I guess I had higher expectations from him. For a guy who completed 65% of his passes in college and lead the NCAA in QB effeciency, I guess I expected more.

All your arguements are valid Russ...if we were hiring Chow as the OC. It is a different ball of wax as a HC. Some people just dont have it, I guess the question remains, does Chow?
 

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The article:
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=81563

The words:
The team retained seven assistant coaches — offensive line coach Steve Loney, receivers coach Mike Wilson, offensive coordinator Mike Kruczek, defensive line coach Larry Brooks, defensive coordinator Clancy Pendergast, linebackers coach Frank Bush and safeties coach Rick Courtright. The others were fired along with Green.

The new coach is going to be asked to evaluate the holdovers, and the implication from Graves Monday was — in the spirit of continuity — some should be kept as the team goes forward.

“I just didn’t think a wholesale turnover of this staff was necessary,” Graves said.

Whether that stability helps the team with a new head coach will remain to be seen. While many players privately acknowledged Green made mistakes, they also have issues with another change.
 

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Fair enough. Maybe it is Chow, but I tend to think defense and Vince Young in Tennessee's turnaround. I also think the Chow- Leinart connection is probably intriguing to the Bidwills, which makes your theory even more probable.

Honestly, I cant get super excited over any HC b/c I just dont have any confidence that AZ can win with the same management structure. Looking at all these candidates, none of them super-excite me. Maybe Whisenhut, but I bet he goes to ATL or takes over for Cowhere if he leaves Pit.

I dunno. Chow just doesnt do it for me.

i am curious...whisenhut has never been a top guy, nor has chow...why does whienhut intrigue you and chow does not...let's say for the sake of discussion what each did with the repective qb's they worked with was even in year one...then what??? there is no right or wrong...just curious.
 

Russ Smith

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i am curious...whisenhut has never been a top guy, nor has chow...why does whienhut intrigue you and chow does not...let's say for the sake of discussion what each did with the repective qb's they worked with was even in year one...then what??? there is no right or wrong...just curious.

Whisenhunt is younger and the Steelers are year removed from the Superbowl so in the NFL that makes you a hot commodity. And the Steelers are a very good program to model yourself after.

The rumor is if Cowher leaves, Grimm will replace him, so that tells you how the Steelers see him and Whisenhunt, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't be good for us.

The main knock on Chow is the unknown, 60 year old guys who've never been a HC are just not that common to suddenly hire so there's a fear of what if there's a very good reason nobody ever made him a HC before deal attached.
 

LVCARDFREAK

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i am curious...whisenhut has never been a top guy, nor has chow...why does whienhut intrigue you and chow does not...let's say for the sake of discussion what each did with the repective qb's they worked with was even in year one...then what??? there is no right or wrong...just curious.

Been in the NFL for quite some time. Promoted from the ranks up through. Known as a future NFL coach (referring to what Russ said about why Chow has not been a HC at the age of 60 even though he has had a 20+ year career in college and the NFL)

It really isnt Whisenhunt that I am overly fond of, its the fact that Chow scares me.

This from an interview 3 years ago:

"AW: Do you ever want to coach in the NFL?

NC: No, people aspire to different things, and I’ve never aspired to that level. I enjoy the challenge of young guys. So every two or three years you have to change quarterbacks. [In college football,] you don’t get a Steve Young for 10 to 12 years, you get a Steve Young for two years. I don’t think coaching differs from the NFL to junior high, it’s all about what you enjoy doing and this (college) is what I enjoy doing. "
 

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The main knock on Chow is the unknown, 60 year old guys who've never been a HC are just not that common to suddenly hire so there's a fear of what if there's a very good reason nobody ever made him a HC before deal attached.

Honestly, isn't it about time a team just bit the bullet and hired him? If a teams sucess is based on how good an interview a guy is, then we should be 16-0 with Green still as HC. Chow has had 30+ years of coaching experince and has had sucess at BYU, USC and now with the Titans. He's more than qualified IMO.
 

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I've decided that Chow while not he only candidate to me he's the most intriguing, we're not going to hire my favorite guy Jim Johnson so this guy is my new favorite by proxy.

Why?

Because he's different that's why, I know he has zero experience at being a HC but that could be said of a ton of different coaches that went on to be very successful and there's one factor I like above all, he's smart, extremely so and given time that will shine through IMO.

He's detail oriented, I don't think he's very firery but the first time the team watches him outhink the other coaching staff that's not going to matter one wit, none.

Leaders come in all shapes and sizes, leaders work best when their plans are solid and that's why I think he'll be fine, he may be a complete social faliure but he'll be accepted if he can coach, at this level having a guy with zero personality that outthinks the other coach is fine, see Bill Belichick.
 
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Cardiac

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My humble take on a couple of topics in this thread.

I think most will agree that not firing every single AC was a smart move unless the new HC has zero say on who is retained or replaced when he takes over. Fair enough?

Graves made his statement about his input on the AC's because he does have the final say so in all football matters and to say anything else would go against that.

The other point to consider is that the AC's that were kept on (so far) should be treated with some respect. RG saying the new HC can axe any or all of them without any input from me simply says he (Cards) have no regard for any of their employee's.

If a HC candidate wants a different DC then they will make their case for that during the interview. This is a brilliant way to show they have a plan, are organized and in general what their thought process is all about. So if Chow say's he wants McGinnis as his DC he better have a ton of excellent reasons on why that would be better then retaining Pendy. It would also mean that Chow is clueless and doesn't get the job.:)

I fully understand why many think the worse in these situations because that's what we get....fair to say all the time.

Here is why I'm not chugging Koolaid or Drano at this point:

Michael Bidwill is not the idiot his father is. Not a ringing endorsement but an improvement.

I do believe that MB has talked too many NFL people about a lot of things including Rod Graves and his abilities. They did mention during the presser that many sources told them they have a good amount of talent of this team. This very well may of included AC's, Rod Graves, and players.
This also probably helped in the decision to get rid of DG.:wave:

Many will forever hold the trade down that netted us Pace & BJ against Graves forever, I for one won't forget but I also won't let this move define him as a GM or whatever his title is.

I do believe that DG had too much input and that RG was caught up in the political atmosphere that is the Card's front office. RG only has some many bullets in his gun and can't shoot down every bad idea. You gotta pick your fights at some point because NO ONE could win every battle against the culture that is Bill Bidwill.

With that in mind think about what RG has accomplished in changing the culture of this team. If all he did was disagree with Billy then he couldn't have won some of the fights he did engage in.

I am not convinced that RG is the best GM in the NFL. I'm not even close to confident that he can turn this mess around. Mainly because no of us know what he has done or can do in this organization (hands tied).

I do have faith in MB, at least his burning desire to win, and his resume indicates he has the mind to research a problem and come up with a solution.
I think/hope MB is through his learning curve and has made a good/great decision.

It's now time to return to your regular programming, thanks for your time.
 

D-Dogg

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I've decided that Chow while not he only candidate to me he's the most intriguing, we're not going to hire my favorite guy Jim Johnson so this guy is my new favorite by proxy.

Why?

Because he's different that's why, I know he has zero experience at being a HC but that could be said of a ton of different coaches that went on to be very successful and there's one factor I like above all, he's smart, extremely so and given time that will shine through IMO.

He's detail oriented, I don't think he's very firery but the first time the team watches him outhink the other coaching staff that's not going to matter one wit, none.

Leaders come in all shapes and sizes, leaders work best when their plans are solid and that's why I think he'll be fine, he may be a complete social faliure but he'll be accepted if he can coach, at this level having a guy with zero personality that outthinks the other coach is fine, see Bill Belichick.

Good points.
 

Russ Smith

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Leaders come in all shapes and sizes, leaders work best when their plans are solid and that's why I think he'll be fine, he may be a complete social faliure but he'll be accepted if he can coach, at this level having a guy with zero personality that outthinks the other coach is fine, see Bill Belichick.

That was an interesting quote that LV posted about Chow but I would also assume to an extent highly regarded coaches are always being asked if they want to advance and the tendency is if you say yes you're NIck Saban, and if you say no, you're not motivated, it's an impossible question to answer.

he already went against that taking the OC job with the Titans, so he clearly isn't totally opposed to the NFL if the situation is right.

Like I said, I'm convinced he's the guy they want to hire.
 

40yearfan

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My humble take on a couple of topics in this thread.

I think most will agree that not firing every single AC was a smart move unless the new HC has zero say on who is retained or replaced when he takes over. Fair enough?

Graves made his statement about his input on the AC's because he does have the final say so in all football matters and to say anything else would go against that.

The other point to consider is that the AC's that were kept on (so far) should be treated with some respect. RG saying the new HC can axe any or all of them without any input from me simply says he (Cards) have no regard for any of their employee's.

If a HC candidate wants a different DC then they will make their case for that during the interview. This is a brilliant way to show they have a plan, are organized and in general what their thought process is all about. So if Chow say's he wants McGinnis as his DC he better have a ton of excellent reasons on why that would be better then retaining Pendy. It would also mean that Chow is clueless and doesn't get the job.:)

I fully understand why many think the worse in these situations because that's what we get....fair to say all the time.

Here is why I'm not chugging Koolaid or Drano at this point:

Michael Bidwill is not the idiot his father is. Not a ringing endorsement but an improvement.

I do believe that MB has talked too many NFL people about a lot of things including Rod Graves and his abilities. They did mention during the presser that many sources told them they have a good amount of talent of this team. This very well may of included AC's, Rod Graves, and players.
This also probably helped in the decision to get rid of DG.:wave:

Many will forever hold the trade down that netted us Pace & BJ against Graves forever, I for one won't forget but I also won't let this move define him as a GM or whatever his title is.

I do believe that DG had too much input and that RG was caught up in the political atmosphere that is the Card's front office. RG only has some many bullets in his gun and can't shoot down every bad idea. You gotta pick your fights at some point because NO ONE could win every battle against the culture that is Bill Bidwill.

With that in mind think about what RG has accomplished in changing the culture of this team. If all he did was disagree with Billy then he couldn't have won some of the fights he did engage in.

I am not convinced that RG is the best GM in the NFL. I'm not even close to confident that he can turn this mess around. Mainly because no of us know what he has done or can do in this organization (hands tied).

I do have faith in MB, at least his burning desire to win, and his resume indicates he has the mind to research a problem and come up with a solution.
I think/hope MB is through his learning curve and has made a good/great decision.

It's now time to return to your regular programming, thanks for your time.

Great post Cardiac and I agree 100%.:thumbup:
 

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