Oh no, it's happening again.

[BC867]

Bob Melvin appears to be following the path of Mike D'Antoni.

Who would have thought two years ago that D'Antoni would be forced out by top management for being a one-dimensional coach. Actually, some of us on the ASFN Suns board did.

Then he would be passed over by the team he wanted to coach, the Bulls, for the same reason.

D'Antoni and Melvin are not identical. But they are parallel.

Both have not shown skills in developing young players. D'Antoni actually said that it's not his job to develop them. Melvin's young players are among the league leaders in strikeouts.

Each is a "players' coach". Steve Nash ran the offense for D'Antoni. No one ran defense and rebounding. D'Antoni was too much a friend to his players (not a bad thing in moderation) and not enough of an authority figure.

Look at Amare Stoudemire's perfecting the parts of the game he wanted to and not the rest.

D'Antoni didn't allow his players to do their best. Their Power Forward played Center. Their two Small Forwards played Power Forward and backup Center. They put on an entertaining show during the season, but could not compete in the post-season.

Bob Melvin is managing American League style in the National League. No bunting or base stealing or hit and run. Everybody swing from the heels. Follow Eric Byrnes lead, with his wild one-handed uppercutting every pitch.

It's not how well you make contact or how hard you hit the ball. It seems to be how high you can hit it. Or how many times you can whiff.

Bob Melvin is extremely passive. Mike D'Antoni is extremely aggressive. But the results are the same.

Do we really want to see Upton (possibly the next Ken Griffey, Jr.), Young and Reynolds eventually putting up big numbers for other teams, just as Carlos Quinton is?

Do we really have to spend the next year or two waiting for our Manager of the Year (just as D'Antoni was Coach of the Year) to be forced out because he's not a complete coach?

Yes, I guess we do. Damnit.

 

[AZZenny]

Q-U-E-N-T-I-N . jeez.

I may disagree on a few minute details of why he's a lousy manager, but I agree whole-heartedly with the overall assessment. Watching Justin Upton telling Mark Grace and Matt Williams the young kids were brought up and kept up ONLY for the bats, not their defense, and the defense 'won't hurt you, but it may not be great' and there would be time to develop that as you went along, but you weren't going to see any gold glovers out of this bunch --- well, my section at the ballpark flinches every time he chases down a ball, often sort of half into it, often misreading, and his demeanor when he was saying these things bothered me more than the words themselves.

Where's the drive to be the best all-around player you can be? Where's a little damn fire? Energy? Discipline? Fun? -- which are not incompatible. Drew is the same way. Conor finally buckled down -- OFF-season, on his own -- to discipline himself, but he pretty clearly hadn't been getting the guidance OR support he needed from the manager or team. Josh Byrnes gave him a big vote of confidence though, and Conor responded.

Now to be fair, Carlos Quentin blossomed for several reasons -- he was injured all last year, and now he's at about 95%. He's getting to play enough to find a rhythm, without feeling like every at bat is a last chance to prove he belongs. But as he said early on, even before he heated up, it felt good to be somewhere that he wasn't going to be 'pigeon-holed', and where there were a number of veterans who really showed him a good work ethic, and coaches and players both who were really supportive but demanding, and seemed to like working with their younger teammates.

 

[JS22]

I don't agree with this post. The Diamondbacks are in a slump right now, obviously, but where were these opinions when they were tearing it up early on?

Last year they stole a number of bases because they simply were not great hitters. For most of this year it's been different because everyone was hitting so well. It was not worth the risk of taking a base when the guy at the plate is knocking the cover off the ball. Now, if the slump continues I expect to see the base stealing attempts go up.

Quentin's performance was not Melvin's fault. He was nagged by minor injuries all year, and the threat of Upton taking his place was probably putting too much pressure on him. I'd bet that his numbers would be fairly similar if he was playing LF this year for the Dbacks. (Without the pressure of losing his spot to someone else.) Once he received a change of scenery he broke out of his shell and is now doing great.

To be honest some of these guys should have spent an extra year in AAA. (I'm looking at you, Upton.) They're still developing at the big league level so expect to see 2-3 week periods like this off and on.

I actually think that Melvin is one of the better managers in the league.

 

[DWKB]

I don't agree with this post. The Diamondbacks are in a slump right now, obviously, but where were these opinions when they were tearing it up early on?

Last year they stole a number of bases because they simply were not great hitters. For most of this year it's been different because everyone was hitting so well. It was not worth the risk of taking a base when the guy at the plate is knocking the cover off the ball. Now, if the slump continues I expect to see the base stealing attempts go up.

Quentin's performance was not Melvin's fault. He was nagged by minor injuries all year, and the threat of Upton taking his place was probably putting too much pressure on him. I'd bet that his numbers would be fairly similar if he was playing LF this year for the Dbacks. (Without the pressure of losing his spot to someone else.) Once he received a change of scenery he broke out of his shell and is now doing great.

To be honest some of these guys should have spent an extra year in AAA. (I'm looking at you, Upton.) They're still developing at the big league level so expect to see 2-3 week periods like this off and on.

I actually think that Melvin is one of the better managers in the league.

I whole-heartedly agree with the base stealing comment, but it really rubs me when people excuse Quentin's performance with CHA as "needing a change of scenery".

Even if it were totally true and didn't stink of armchair speculation and rationalizing, the organization is still responsible for the environment that would have caused him to continue to fail as you've proposed.

Upton should have never been the threat, Byrnes was the bug in the outfield equation.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

Bob Melvin appears to be following the path of Mike D'Antoni.

Who would have thought two years ago that D'Antoni would be forced out by top management for being a one-dimensional coach. Actually, some of us on the ASFN Suns board did.

Then he would be passed over by the team he wanted to coach, the Bulls, for the same reason.

D'Antoni and Melvin are not identical. But they are parallel.

Both have not shown skills in developing young players. D'Antoni actually said that it's not his job to develop them. Melvin's young players are among the league leaders in strikeouts.

Each is a "players' coach". Steve Nash ran the offense for D'Antoni. No one ran defense and rebounding. D'Antoni was too much a friend to his players (not a bad thing in moderation) and not enough of an authority figure.

Look at Amare Stoudemire's perfecting the parts of the game he wanted to and not the rest.

D'Antoni didn't allow his players to do their best. Their Power Forward played Center. Their two Small Forwards played Power Forward and backup Center. They put on an entertaining show during the season, but could not compete in the post-season.

Bob Melvin is managing American League style in the National League. No bunting or base stealing or hit and run. Everybody swing from the heels. Follow Eric Byrnes lead, with his wild one-handed uppercutting every pitch.

It's not how well you make contact or how hard you hit the ball. It seems to be how high you can hit it. Or how many times you can whiff.

Bob Melvin is extremely passive. Mike D'Antoni is extremely aggressive. But the results are the same.

Do we really want to see Upton (possibly the next Ken Griffey, Jr.), Young and Reynolds eventually putting up big numbers for other teams, just as Carlos Quinton is?

Do we really have to spend the next year or two waiting for our Manager of the Year (just as D'Antoni was Coach of the Year) to be forced out because he's not a complete coach?

Yes, I guess we do. Damnit.

This is quite a peculiar guilt by association argument, considering that the majority of this post has nothing at all to do with Bob Melvin. I guess we've learned nothing from last June, when posters came out of the woodwork to make similarly nebulous charges. Look how that one turned out.

First off, the insinuation that stolen bases is somehow an NL style and not an AL style is an antiquated argument. Let's look at the average number of stolen bases the last six years per league (including the start of 2008):

League #1: 33 97 89 87 90 91
League #2: 33 98 95 84 84 81

Can you tell which row corresponds to which league? For the record, the top row is the AL, which in three of the last six years has averaged a higher number of stolen bases. So much for stolen bases being an NL trait.

As for how this pertains to the Diamondbacks, last year the team was fifth in the NL in stolen bases with more or less the same lineup they have now. Melvin has shown in the past that he is unafraid to run with this group, contradictory to the style you portray him as having. For reasons that WastedFate already went into, it isn't unreasonable to expect that now the offense has slowed from their torrid pace that the team will begin to run more, since that is what they had done with these guys in the past.

 

[JS22]

I whole-heartedly agree with the base stealing comment, but it really rubs me when people excuse Quentin's performance with CHA as "needing a change of scenery".

Even if it were totally true and didn't stink of armchair speculation and rationalizing, the organization is still responsible for the environment that would have caused him to continue to fail as you've proposed.

Upton should have never been the threat, Byrnes was the bug in the outfield equation.

I agree with you about Byrnes. Maybe it's not that he needed a change of scenery as much as he was just trying too hard due to all of the Upton hype and the Byrnes signing.

 

[Lefty]

I agree with you about Byrnes. Maybe it's not that he needed a change of scenery as much as he was just trying too hard due to all of the Upton hype and the Byrnes signing.

If the front office did not act so fast to sign Byrnes and stuck to their guns about the young guys, Carlos would not have had any pressure because he would of gone into this year as one of the starting outfielders, along with Young and Upton.

Also, the money they wasted on Byrnes could of gone to re-signing Hudson. Now they're most likely going to lose Orlando after this year.

 

[DWKB]

If the front office did not act so fast to sign Byrnes and stuck to their guns about the young guys, Carlos would not have had any pressure because he would of gone into this year as one of the starting outfielders, along with Young and Upton.

Also, the money they wasted on Byrnes could of gone to re-signing Hudson. Now they're most likely going to lose Orlando after this year.

The front office acted on the behalf of these people and these people if you're looking to point that finger somewhere those threads would be a good start.

 

[Ryanwb]

Phoenix fans are so fickle, the front office of every sports team in the Valley have to make moves to appease the fan base and it's sickening. Byrnes was one of these moves. They felt the backlash from fans about Gonzo leaving even though he had nothing left to contribute here, so they signed the next fanbase love in Byrnes. This was a knee jerk move by the front office

If I hear about Quentin one more time I'll literally vomit, he's gone, let's move on. This is becoming the Suns board with "If we didn't trade away Joe Johnson and our first round pick in 2005 the Suns could have...." I think I recall someone complaining about trading Durazo and Jack Cust when they hit a few homers in Oakland. Guess what? Durazo is playing in Mexico and Cust has returned to normal strikeout mode. Quentin is having a great year, for the White Sox!!!!!

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

All of us have been to at least a handful of DBacks games and let's be honest, the fans for the most part are some of the most unintelligent baseball fans in the sport (most of the present company is excluded which makes the DBacks board the best on ASFN). So if Josh Byrnes or ownership made a $30 million decision because a few thousand fans might be pissed that their great white hype plays elsewhere then the front office has nobody to blame but themselves.

 

[DWKB]

In a thread comparing managers doesn't it make sense that this forum look like the Suns one?

 

[Skkorpion]

BC, I agree with you about Melvin not being very aggressive about stealing bases but you choose to ignore some of our recent pitching problems while still not admitting you were completely wrong about our closer.

Webb, Haren, and Owings have had a string of sucking performances. Is that Melvin's fault? Pena's meltdown? Qualls' meltdowns? Are they Melvin's faults? The injuries to Byrnes (worse than we knew) and Hudson, are they Melvin's fault?

Does not the GM determine the team makeup more than the manager?

Yes, we are having problems and yes, maybe Melvin could have done things a little differently here and there.

Seems the last few days we are becoming more aggressive on base but it's hard to do unless you get on base first.

And now the injury to Cojak might hurt even more. I think you're being unfair to Melvin too early. If we get to the end of June and find we've imploded, I'll conceed your opinion to have been correct.

Hell, I'll join you in calling for Melvin's firing.

 

[BC867]

BC, I agree with you about Melvin not being very aggressive about stealing bases but you choose to ignore some of our recent pitching problems while still not admitting you were completely wrong about our closer.

Webb, Haren, and Owings have had a string of sucking performances. Is that Melvin's fault? Pena's meltdown? Qualls' meltdowns? Are they Melvin's faults? The injuries to Byrnes (worse than we knew) and Hudson, are they Melvin's fault?

Does not the GM determine the team makeup more than the manager?

Yes, we are having problems and yes, maybe Melvin could have done things a little differently here and there.

Seems the last few days we are becoming more aggressive on base but it's hard to do unless you get on base first.

And now the injury to Cojak might hurt even more. I think you're being unfair to Melvin too early. If we get to the end of June and find we've imploded, I'll conceed your opinion to have been correct.

Hell, I'll join you in calling for Melvin's firing.

I was wrong about Brandon Lyon as closer. I really thought that his lack of being a power pitcher was going to put him at a disadvantage.

My frustration about Melvin is that his only approach on offense seems to be to swing from the heels. That doesn't help young players adjust to a league adjusting to them.

Then it affects their concentration on defense. Then that affects the pitchers.

And the Manager goes on TV day after day and says that we are in a "little" slump.

'Can't solve the problems if he is going to put a spin on them.

That's why I started this thread. I see parallels between the path he is following and the one Mike D'Antoni chose to.