Oh What a Night

[DVontel]

I want MHJ first and foremost, but as others have demonstrated, nearly every top receiver of the past twenty years didn't win a Super Bowl.

What are we defining as “top receiver” because I can show you Kupp, Hill, & Evans all winning SBs just in the past 5 years.

 

[slanidrac16]

Harry, stellar work good brother. This post encapsulates exactly what most of us are feeling. All I ever asked was that we play, smart intelligent football this season which to my dismay has been done nearly zilch. I will be honest. I'm now left with questions about the ability of both O and D co-ordinators, as we of course know that Gannon is just a Gap store mannequin.

There’s only so much lipstick you can put on a pig. We all bitch about the lack of talent on this team but we are going to question the ability of the coordinator? Doesn’t seem fair at this point.
Look at some of the teams drafting right behind us that have won a couple of games more than us with better talent.
Not to mentioned we have used 76 different players this year. That’s 23 player more than a roster of 53. We have been plugging in players that will never play football again after this year.

Through all this Gannon has kept this team together. The worse grade I can give this staff is incomplete.

 

[Krangodnzr]

What are we defining as “top receiver” because I can show you Kupp, Hill, & Evans all winning SBs just in the past 5 years.

Highly drafted. Top of their draft classes.

 

[kerouac9]

What are we defining as “top receiver” because I can show you Kupp, Hill, & Evans all winning SBs just in the past 5 years.

I know we've gone back and forth on this before, but from that list I'd only count Hill as an elite wideout.

Kupp and Evans have had very good seasons, Evans has had extremely consistent counting snaps for a long time, but I don't put them on the same level as Moss, Megatron, etc. (FWIW, I don't put Larry Fitzgerald on that level, either. To me, Fitz is a step up from Evans.)

 

[kerouac9]

Highly drafted. Top of their draft classes.

Top 10 picks? Top 5?

 

[kerouac9]

Looking at this list of WRs drafted very high should make you really nervous about drafting one #3 overall. It's not just guys who never won the super bowl; there are a lot of names here who did almost nothing. Corey Davis was selected fifth overall in 2017.

 

[GoldGloveschmidt]

I think any list of "X" position drafted high who didn't win a superbowl is going to look pretty bad.

 

[kerouac9]

I think any list of "X" position drafted high who didn't win a superbowl is going to look pretty bad.

100%. I hate that metric for success. Shorten the timeline and expand the sample size. I prefer to use playoff entrants since you can't win the whole thing if you don't make the dance, but teams who make the Divisional round over the past 5-10 years probably gives you a reliable set.

 

[Harry]

Because of the player? Or because of the cap ramifications from moving Murray? Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought one of the reasons the new regime cleared cap space was to leave themselves room if they decided they wanted to move on from K1?

Player

 

[Harry]

Yes, I agree. I don’t believe anyone is questioning that Fields has phenomenal running instincts and ability. He’s just a liability throwing the ball against even average defenses. He also leads the league in 4th quarter interceptions. And I agree the Cardinals are telling Murray to stay in the pocket as much as possible the remainder of this season. All part of the experimenting that Petzing and the Cardinals have done all year, but even more so since Murray returned. They are no doubt in my mind wanting to see what does and doesn’t work going into next season. JG is constantly talking reps, reps, reps. Does anyone really believe that they don’t already know what Murray can or cannot do? Silly to think they don’t. For Murray and the Cardinals as a whole, the real bullets don’t start until next season.

As we’ve began considering this I had a frightening thought. I have believed all along that Ossenfort was trying to tank. I’ve watched the worst performance I can ever recall seeing at LG. They didn’t begin the year with a quality starter or an experienced backup. No attempt was made to trade for one even after the deficiency was apparent. A few were available to be signed but the Cards passed on them. Even after injury subpar Wilkinson was brought back and handed the spot. Is it possible Ossenfort left this gap to subtly sabotage the offense? Maybe I need to get more sleep, but I can’t understand ignoring a defect like that. Murray has always struggled with free or near free rusher on the inside. He’s had tons this season. Feel free to say I’m nuts.

 

[TheCardFan]

As we’ve began considering this I had a frightening thought.

Is it possible Ossenfort left this gap to subtly sabotage the offense?

Whew. I thought you were going to say Monti was doing his best to assemble a competitive team.

Now that would be frightening.

 

[PACardsFan]

As we’ve began considering this I had a frightening thought. I have believed all along that Ossenfort was trying to tank. I’ve watched the worst performance I can ever recall seeing at LG. They didn’t begin the year with a quality starter or an experienced backup. No attempt was made to trade for one even after the deficiency was apparent. A few were available to be signed but the Cards passed on them. Even after injury subpar Wilkinson was brought back and handed the spot. Is it possible Ossenfort left this gap to subtly sabotage the offense? Maybe I need to get more sleep, but I can’t understand ignoring a defect like that. Murray has always struggled with free or near free rusher on the inside. He’s had tons this season. Feel free to say I’m nuts.

You’re not nuts. But, haven’t we all seen enough football in our lifetimes to know that most, if not all, QB’s struggle the most with a FREE inside rush?? Of course they do. It’s just that the great QB’s have always been on great teams that don’t allow that free inside pressure. As a 60 year fan, I think I’ve seen numerous worse LG’s in Cardinal history than Wilkinson & Colon. And I’m definitely not saying they’re good by any stretch. But, by comparison, once Pugh went down the past couple years, the trash we had in there was far worse than what we have this season. Maybe I’m the one who’s nuts lol. I don’t think that MO was purposely tanking. But, there was no doubt that the goal was to go into 2024 with a clean financial slate, and they were only going to in 2023 bring in guys with the right “culture”. Because establishing a culture was more important this season than actually winning. But, I saw a screen during the game where the Cardinals were in the top 3 as to how many players they had to play this year. Now, some of that has to do with experimentation, but most had to do with injuries. Taking into account it was the first year of a roster rebuild, all the injuries just made it impossible for it to not look exactly like a tanking.

 

[Stout]

Yes, I agree. I don’t believe anyone is questioning that Fields has phenomenal running instincts and ability. He’s just a liability throwing the ball against even average defenses. He also leads the league in 4th quarter interceptions. And I agree the Cardinals are telling Murray to stay in the pocket as much as possible the remainder of this season. All part of the experimenting that Petzing and the Cardinals have done all year, but even more so since Murray returned. They are no doubt in my mind wanting to see what does and doesn’t work going into next season. JG is constantly talking reps, reps, reps. Does anyone really believe that they don’t already know what Murray can or cannot do? Silly to think they don’t. For Murray and the Cardinals as a whole, the real bullets don’t start until next season.

Thank you for admitting the FO has treated 2023 as an extended preseason.

 

[Stout]

I want MHJ first and foremost, but as others have demonstrated, nearly every top receiver of the past twenty years didn't win a Super Bowl.

Sorry, I was just reading your draft priorities and putting that together with comparing the rest of the WRs in the draft favorably to MHJ. What you're saying is we're actually in agreement and we should stay put (or trade down a spot or two) and take MHJ. Cool.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Luckily, the draft comes quickly after the SB. Exactly why I think MO needs to act on that early pick instead of trading out and accumulating more picks. Unlike last year, this is a talent rich draft. Make that first pick a defining pick, so that a frustrated fan base can have some hope that we’re making progress. I’m sure Bidwill was well aware that we were going to eat a crap sandwich this year, but knowing Michael, he’ll want to see W/L progress this year.

Agree the 2024 draft will build some good vibes for the 2024 regular season. 100%

But leading up to the draft, I think this place will at times be a battleground. Like before we picked Murray.

Some will be absolutely pounding the table for Maye or Williams, and it might get a little ugly. You ready for that?

 

[kerouac9]

Agree the 2024 draft will build some good vibes for 2024 regular season. 100%

But leading up to the draft, I think this place will at times be a battleground. Like before we picked Murray.
Some will be absolutely pounding the table for Maye or Williams, and it might get a little ugly. You ready for that?

Super Bowl is February 11.
Free agency opens March 13.

 

[Stout]

Agree the 2024 draft will build some good vibes for the 2024 regular season. 100%

But leading up to the draft, I think this place will at times be a battleground. Like before we picked Murray.

Some will be absolutely pounding the table for Maye or Williams, and it might get a little ugly. You ready for that?

I agree, this offseason will be crazy. If Monti punts on FA again...it'll be a blood bath.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

Agree the 2024 draft will build some good vibes for the 2024 regular season. 100%

But leading up to the draft, I think this place will at times be a battleground. Like before we picked Murray.

Some will be absolutely pounding the table for Maye or Williams, and it might get a little ugly. You ready for that?

Super Bowl is February 11.
Free agency opens March 13.

I agree, this offseason will be crazy. If Monti punts on FA again...it'll be a blood bath.

Bring it on

I'm ready for the battle

And the enjoyment that goes with it

 

[az jam]

It sure looks like they have been tanking. I don't think that Murray will be traded but there will be ongoing rumors that he is by the football "experts" looking to add to their social media following. The Monti/Gannon regime has been very tight lipped so we really don't know what their plans are and can only speculate. Michael Bidwill has bought into their plan but we all know that he is not a patient owner, so they need to have an off season of success. They certainly have the draft capital and free gent money available to turn this team onto the right path (hopefully ).

 

[Crimson Warrior]

I ain't advocating for Fields either.

Murray simply played a bad game.

Btw Pharzbit, why did you dislike Kevin Kolb so much?

tbh, I thought 15 years ago or whatever that was, you were only on the board as like a Kolb stalker. Like you had some personal vendetta against him or something. I mean, you used to get after him pretty good.

Please. If you don't mind sharing.

 

[Phrazbit]

Btw Pharzbit, why did you dislike Kevin Kolb so much?

tbh, I thought 15 years ago or whatever that was, you were only on the board as like a Kolb stalker. Like you had some personal vendetta against him or something. I mean, you used to get after him pretty good.

Please. If you don't mind sharing.

That was a rough intro to the boards for me... I am pretty sure that bad first impression got me on ignore from quite a few posters. The old ESPN boards had just been shut down and the style of "discourse" over there was very different than here... I had a bit of adjusting and growing up to do.

Anyway, onto the tale of Kolb.

I thought he was basically a right handed poor man's Matt Leinart. A dude who throws 90% check downs, zero pocket awareness and got injured like every other game. He only started a handful of games in Philly and he'd already been injured like 5 times, including multiple concussions. He was like the 3rd or 4th awful QB that Andy Reid had pawned off on some unsuspecting team in only a few years.

Red flags were everywhere.

I didn't hate him, the person, I hated the trade and was incensed that we did something that I felt was so patently stupid and was obviously going to make us waste 2 or 3 years on a dude who was a dud from the jump.

I am not near as down on Kyler as I was on Kolb. I was heavily in the Kyler camp for most of his first 3 years, but the playoff game pretty much eradicated my confidence in him. Not so much that he had a terrible game, it was the way he carried himself during it.

My expectation that the team would likely move on after this year was mostly because the front office has been purging virtually everything from before their reign and already put themselves in a spot to absorb the massive cap hit. I figure Kyler was in a spot where he'd really need to wow them to stick around and he certainly hasn't wowed so far.

I think it is likely he will be back next year though, there isn't the obvious "franchise guy" or 2 in the draft that people were anticipating. Might as well play him next year when it's the year with the largest chunk of guaranteed money left on his deal... and there isn't really a decent alternative to go with anyway.





Probably do need to update my avatar though...

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Highly drafted. Top of their draft classes.

I think he proved the point that great receivers can lead to super bowl wins. Where a player is drafted is immaterial to who wins a super bowl.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Looking at this list of WRs drafted very high should make you really nervous about drafting one #3 overall. It's not just guys who never won the super bowl; there are a lot of names here who did almost nothing. Corey Davis was selected fifth overall in 2017.

Can’t you do that with virtually every position?

 

[Krangodnzr]

I think he proved the point that great receivers can lead to super bowl wins. Where a player is drafted is immaterial to who wins a super bowl.

But he didn't disprove the point that teams featuring highly drafted receivers won Super Bowls. Not at all.

A lot of player success in the NFL is matching the right traits to the right system.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Agree the 2024 draft will build some good vibes for the 2024 regular season. 100%

But leading up to the draft, I think this place will at times be a battleground. Like before we picked Murray.

Some will be absolutely pounding the table for Maye or Williams, and it might get a little ugly. You ready for that?

So . . . it will be a cardinals offseason. Got it.