On Simmons and Collins

[Broseph]

I was reading on some local sports media about how minimal role these two had in the playoffs. This is infuriating, as both were 1st round picks, and these types of picks are expected to at least get on the field and contribute to a certain degree. I don't know about you guys, but I don't want Steve Keim drafting for this team anymore, I know its wishful thinking, but it would be amazing to let someone else draft 2022 for us.

Unfortunately, Keim isn't going anywhere and will continue to make bad 1st round selections and make this franchise constantly in quicksand and lacking talent on both sides of the ball to make a serious playoff run.

 

[Finito]

I was reading on some local sports media about how minimal role these two had in the playoffs. This is infuriating, as both were 1st round picks, and these types of picks are expected to at least get on the field and contribute to a certain degree. I don't know about you guys, but I don't want Steve Keim drafting for this team anymore, I know its wishful thinking, but it would be amazing to let someone else draft 2022 for us.

Unfortunately, Keim isn't going anywhere and will continue to make bad 1st round selections and make this franchise constantly in quicksand and lacking talent on both sides of the ball to make a serious playoff run.

I don’t think there bad selections I think we have defensive coordinator who is super vanilla and plays ultra safe

VJ has no idea how to use any of these guys.

Rush 3 and drop everybody time after time

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I don’t think there bad selections I think we have defensive coordinator who is super vanilla and plays ultra safe

VJ has no idea how to use any of these guys.

Rush 3 and drop everybody time after time

As much as I don't want to stand up for VJ right now, he very rarely rushes only 3. The Cards are the 2nd or 3rd leading blitzing team in the NFL, which means more than 4 players.

 

[Frank The Fixer]

Keim and Joseph. People were calling the Simmons disaster before he was even drafted and they were 100% correct. If they knew it Keim should’ve known it. F that guy

 

[juza76]

Keim and Joseph. People were calling the Simmons disaster before he was even drafted and they were 100% correct. If they knew it Keim should’ve known it. F that guy

There were preferences about some players especially linemen, but nobody questioned if he was worth the 8th pick in the draft
Me and someone else raised concern how he would have fit in Vance Joseph loser schemes and the fact he wasn't the right coach for a hybrid player

 

[GatorAZ]

Even though it’s ridiculous to only scapegoat Vance I think he will be fired after the positions he’s interviewing for are filled.

 

[Frank The Fixer]

There were preferences about some players especially linemen, but nobody questioned if he was worth the 8th pick in the draft
Me and someone else raised concern how he would have fit in Vance Joseph loser schemes and the fact he wasn't the right coach for a hybrid player

You just made my point. Many people felt the way that you did or worse about Simmons. He was referred to as a Swiss army knife that would be forced to play a traditional position that he wasn’t suited for therefor making him a poor selection.

And yes many people wanted Wirfs or Wills.

 

[slanidrac16]

Simmons appears to be a guy that at the very least could rush the passer. He certainly isn’t built to play ilb.

 

[DVontel]

I still have hope for Collins. I like what I seen from him in the run game & I think he has the athleticism to play the pass whether zone or man. He doesn’t have the amount of deficiencies Simmons has in order to be a good player in this league. I actually been thinking that he would’ve done a better job in Simmons’ role than Simmons has so far.

 

[splitsecond]

Keim and Joseph. People were calling the Simmons disaster before he was even drafted and they were 100% correct. If they knew it Keim should’ve known it. F that guy

This is absolute BS. Simmons was widely lauded and the pick was celebrated almost universally here and in the media. VJ And Billy Davis are to blame for his lack of development.

 

[BurqueCardFan]

This is absolute BS. Simmons was widely lauded and the pick was celebrated almost universally here and in the media. VJ And Billy Davis are to blame for his lack of development.

This. The talent is there. He has flashed the talent on occasion in game. This is strictly on coaching and development (of lack thereof). These coaches are supposed to be the best of the best. If they cannot scheme to put these players in a position to excel, then they shouldn't be coaching.

 

[Russ Smith]

This is absolute BS. Simmons was widely lauded and the pick was celebrated almost universally here and in the media. VJ And Billy Davis are to blame for his lack of development.

It's actually not there was no consensus at all on Simmons from NFL people.

The Athletic’s Bob McGinn recently polled 16 NFL executives asking what they thought Simmons’ best position would be in the NFL: 10 replied weak-side linebacker, three said nickel linebacker, one said outside linebacker and two said safety. An anonymous executive labeled Simmons “the most overrated prospect in the draft.”

“If you put this guy at SAM linebacker only, he’s going to struggle,” said an AFC executive. “If you put him at free safety only, he’s going to struggle. You’ve got to be creative.”

Most of that is a 4-3 defense not a 3-4 but he was one of the more polarizing players in the draft. Some people loved him, some people said we're not sure he has an NFL position

I don't think he's a bust but I don't think he's been close to the 8th pick. I wasn't a huge Wirfs guy at the time I hadn't seen him very much but clearly so far Wirfs would have been a better pick. If you redid the draft now I have no doubt we'd either pick Wirfs or Justin Jefferson. Of course if you redid the draft now Jefferson is probably the 3rd pick, Burrow, Young, Jefferson.

 

[Frank The Fixer]

It's actually not there was no consensus at all on Simmons from NFL people.

The Athletic’s Bob McGinn recently polled 16 NFL executives asking what they thought Simmons’ best position would be in the NFL: 10 replied weak-side linebacker, three said nickel linebacker, one said outside linebacker and two said safety. An anonymous executive labeled Simmons “the most overrated prospect in the draft.”

“If you put this guy at SAM linebacker only, he’s going to struggle,” said an AFC executive. “If you put him at free safety only, he’s going to struggle. You’ve got to be creative.”

Most of that is a 4-3 defense not a 3-4 but he was one of the more polarizing players in the draft. Some people loved him, some people said we're not sure he has an NFL position

I don't think he's a bust but I don't think he's been close to the 8th pick. I wasn't a huge Wirfs guy at the time I hadn't seen him very much but clearly so far Wirfs would have been a better pick. If you redid the draft now I have no doubt we'd either pick Wirfs or Justin Jefferson. Of course if you redid the draft now Jefferson is probably the 3rd pick, Burrow, Young, Jefferson.

I was looking for that. Thank you for posting it.


I think you forgot Herbert

 

[Cheesebeef]

Simmons played 32% of defensive snaps... and was GAMEPLANNED to play that little.

That is an epic organizational fail for a top 10 pick in his second year in a playoff game. I don’t know if it’s Vance’s fault for not developing/having a clue what to do with him or Keim just blowing another first rounder, but end of the day, it falls on Keim. He made the pick AND hand picked Vance as his DC.

 

[GatorAZ]

It's actually not there was no consensus at all on Simmons from NFL people.

The Athletic’s Bob McGinn recently polled 16 NFL executives asking what they thought Simmons’ best position would be in the NFL: 10 replied weak-side linebacker, three said nickel linebacker, one said outside linebacker and two said safety. An anonymous executive labeled Simmons “the most overrated prospect in the draft.”

“If you put this guy at SAM linebacker only, he’s going to struggle,” said an AFC executive. “If you put him at free safety only, he’s going to struggle. You’ve got to be creative.”

Most of that is a 4-3 defense not a 3-4 but he was one of the more polarizing players in the draft. Some people loved him, some people said we're not sure he has an NFL position

I don't think he's a bust but I don't think he's been close to the 8th pick. I wasn't a huge Wirfs guy at the time I hadn't seen him very much but clearly so far Wirfs would have been a better pick. If you redid the draft now I have no doubt we'd either pick Wirfs or Justin Jefferson. Of course if you redid the draft now Jefferson is probably the 3rd pick, Burrow, Young, Jefferson.

Whew looking back I can’t believe Thomas went before Wirfs, Wills and Becton. In hindsight passing on a tackle with a non-rush LB will haunt us.

They need to figure out the LB core going forward. I remember when the Ravens drafted Ray Lewis, Jamie Sharper and Peter Boulware in b2b drafts and they were the core of an elite defense for many years. One of Simmons/Collins needs to transition to EDGE but we don’t have the creative minds to make it work.

 

[AZman5103]

Bidwill needs to grow a pair and tell Keim the FACTS. His drafting has been horrendous and its undeniable. Keim deserves credit in other areas like trades, and has even gotten better on the FA front...but his drafting is horrible.

There has to be an analytics team somewhere itching to show that their draft models are legit. Bidwill needs to break the mold and hire a completely separate, dedicated draft team. Scouts, Analysts, Draft Gurus...whatever you want to call them. There one and only job should be to prepare that top 150 board for the draft. No other responsibilities. Don't have to worry about cap, or FA or anything else...just nail the draft.

IMO "nailing" the draft means:
1st round picks are starters and earn a 2nd contract ~65% of the time.

2nd/3rd round picks are impact players with a defined role on the team and earn a second contract ~50% of the time.

4th/5th round pick contribute in some way, provide depth, and earn a 2nd contract ~33% of the time

6th/7th round picks are special teams guys, flyers on crazy athleticism, deep roster guys and might earn a 2nd contract ~10% of the time.

 

[DVontel]

Whew looking back I can’t believe Thomas went before Wirfs, Wills and Becton. In hindsight passing on a tackle with a non-rush LB will haunt us.

To be fair, Thomas was good this year. Better than even Wills(injury probably had to do with his performance) & Becton(injury). Still, he was good.

Shouldn’t be hindsight. It was dumb then & it was dumb now.

One of Simmons/Collins needs to transition to EDGE but we don’t have the creative minds to make it work.

I don’t think there’s a single position Simmons can play & be good at it. His weird body type won’t allow to reach whatever high ceiling folks probably still think he has. I really think it’s a player problem more than a coaching problem. He’s not a Derwin James. I think Collins can stick at ILB & be effective. He can play downhill & his sample size is still too small to determine how he is in the passing game, but he has the athleticism for it & not just linear athleticism like Simmons.

 

[Chopper0080]

Whew looking back I can’t believe Thomas went before Wirfs, Wills and Becton. In hindsight passing on a tackle with a non-rush LB will haunt us.

They need to figure out the LB core going forward. I remember when the Ravens drafted Ray Lewis, Jamie Sharper and Peter Boulware in b2b drafts and they were the core of an elite defense for many years. One of Simmons/Collins needs to transition to EDGE but we don’t have the creative minds to make it work.

From a sheer financial standpoint the Cardinals have to figure out how to use Collins and Simmons even if they are not a long term option. That said, the Cardinals are very experienced and comfortable with wasting draft picks, especially first round ones.

 

[Chopper0080]

To be fair, Thomas was good this year. Better than even Wills(injury probably had to do with his performance) & Becton(injury). Still, he was good.

Shouldn’t be hindsight. It was dumb then & it was dumb now.


I don’t think there’s a single position Simmons can play & be good at it. His weird body type won’t allow to reach whatever high ceiling folks probably still think he has. I really think it’s a player problem more than a coaching problem. He’s not a Derwin James. I think Collins can stick at ILB & be effective. He can play downhill & his sample size is still too small to determine how he is in the passing game, but he has the athleticism for it & not just linear athleticism like Simmons.

I will argue this to oblivion. There is an easy fit with Simmons, especially in our division. He has to be a base SS and nickel ILB. He has the hips to play man vs every TE in our division if we commit him to it. In nickel, you drop him in as a standup rusher / deep middle LB in cover 2 / spy. Also, If I am his coach, I am having him jack up every inside breaking route from Kupp, Lockett, and Deebo. Tell him to drill them legally but if he gets a penalty I would not care. Nickel vs the run is less of an issue and he has the speed to close on screens and wheel routes if you work with him on his angles.

Daryl Washington was a dummy and he was able to be a force as a nickel LB. Simmons can be better if he has a coach who turns him loose and stops trying to make him play a traditional LB role.

 

[DVontel]

He has the hips to play man vs every TE in our division if we commit him to it.

Yea, I don’t think so. If the TE is running anything other than a 9 route, Simmons seems to be at least 2 steps behind. I will give him a pass against Kittle because he is Kittle, but I’ve seen Higbee get the best of Simmons more times than not. He needs to be our Derwin James, but he doesn’t have the fluidity of Derwin. He cannot & has not be successful in press man against above-average TEs because his body type doesn’t allow him to be. He’s too clunky.

In nickel, you drop him in as a standup rusher / deep middle LB in cover 2 / spy.

Uh, no thanks. I only trust him in open space just a little bit more than I do in the box. His hips are just tight enough to the point if he’s going up against a respectable agile athlete, it’s over him. Seeing current Ezekiel Elliot making him miss might be one of the saddest things I’ve seen in his tenure.

but if he gets a penalty I would not care

Yeaaaa, I don’t buy this. I don’t think you do either, especially in a close game, lol. Just makes him even more of a liability.

Daryl Washington was a dummy and he was able to be a force as a nickel LB.

Daryl Washington had real good hip fluidly & could flip + turn for the days. I see that from Derwin James. I don’t see that from Simmons. Again, weird body type.

who turns him loose

I still don’t know what this fully means. At least for Simmons. When I see this, I see “Should just blitz him up the middle on a majority of pass plays”. Cause every other variation I’ve seen also wants him to do things he isn’t good at.

 

[GatorAZ]

To be fair, Thomas was good this year. Better than even Wills(injury probably had to do with his performance) & Becton(injury). Still, he was good.

Shouldn’t be hindsight. It was dumb then & it was dumb now.


I don’t think there’s a single position Simmons can play & be good at it. His weird body type won’t allow to reach whatever high ceiling folks probably still think he has. I really think it’s a player problem more than a coaching problem. He’s not a Derwin James. I think Collins can stick at ILB & be effective. He can play downhill & his sample size is still too small to determine how he is in the passing game, but he has the athleticism for it & not just linear athleticism like Simmons.

Simmons has the arms and frame to make an impact off the edge. Of course he has no pass-rushing chops but at this point he’s not making a difference anywhere else.

Simmons was 238 at the combine (Reddick 237 for reference). He wears 238 like 218 so he can add more but doesn’t have that explosive first step Reddick did.

 

[DVontel]

but at this point he’s not making a difference anywhere else.

Which is why you trade him. Which I would for a 2nd rounder.

 

[GatorAZ]

Which is why you trade him. Which I would for a 2nd rounder.

Is Keim going to admit screwed up the pick though? This is a guy that kept Andy Isabella and Brandon Williams on the roster just cause they were drafted high…

 

[Russ Smith]

I will argue this to oblivion. There is an easy fit with Simmons, especially in our division. He has to be a base SS and nickel ILB. He has the hips to play man vs every TE in our division if we commit him to it. In nickel, you drop him in as a standup rusher / deep middle LB in cover 2 / spy. Also, If I am his coach, I am having him jack up every inside breaking route from Kupp, Lockett, and Deebo. Tell him to drill them legally but if he gets a penalty I would not care. Nickel vs the run is less of an issue and he has the speed to close on screens and wheel routes if you work with him on his angles.

Daryl Washington was a dummy and he was able to be a force as a nickel LB. Simmons can be better if he has a coach who turns him loose and stops trying to make him play a traditional LB role.

Are we playing 3 safeties? I sure don't want to take Budda or Thompson off the field to make room for Simmons. If we're playing 3 safeties we already did that with Deonne if you do that you better have a 340 pound monster at NT taking up 2 blockers often next to JJ Watt taking up 2 blockers or the 49ers, Rams and Seahawks will run all over you twice a year.

 

[Russ Smith]

Simmons has the arms and frame to make an impact off the edge. Of course he has no pass-rushing chops but at this point he’s not making a difference anywhere else.

Simmons was 238 at the combine (Reddick 237 for reference). He wears 238 like 218 so he can add more but doesn’t have that explosive first step Reddick did.

The thing with him is he's a long strider which doesn't necessarily work at edge rusher because he doesn't have a strong base. If he comes off the edge against a real NFL OT, or even a TE, so far he just gets stopped. Where he's been effective is coming up the middle or on stunts where he's flying straight ahead. The key to edge rushing is getting that turn around the OL and accelerating to the QB. Golden is great at the initial push and even getting his shoulder past the OL, but he doesn't have that last burst to the QB. That's what made Chandler so good in his prime he just exploded off that turn. They have to be "bendy" to get the shoulder by turn and accelerate. We haven't seen any indication Simmons could do that. He actually reminds me of a Wile E Coyote cartoon where he chases the roadrunner full speed and just when he's almost there the roadrunner stops, or goes laterally, and he goes flying on by and falls of a cliff.

Again in the Rams game theres a play where Kupp catches the ball, Simmons in pursuit overruns him goes flying by. Thompson grabs the leg and is holding him there, Simmons comes flying back trying to get a hit or strip the ball, and on one leg Kupp just makes a little hop and Simmons goes flying by the other way. He's very impressive until the runner stops cooperating and changes directions.