One of the only Kolb fans left

[Crazy Canuck]

Have there been later blooming QB's who up to that point were seen as backups at best by both pundits and fans? The answer, I believe, is yes. Some, in fact, led their team to NFL Championship and Super Bowl games.

 

[kerouac9]

Have there been later blooming QB's who up to that point were seen as backups at best by both pundits and fans? The answer, I believe, is yes. Some, in fact, led their team to NFL Championship and Super Bowl games.

Who are these players? Not the ones who could successfully manage a game, but could lead a team to a championship.

Kurt Warner had 11 regular-season passing attempts before he set the world on fire with the Greatest Show on Turf.

Tom Brady had 3 regular-season passing attempts before he stepped in for Drew Bledsoe and lead the Patriots to the Super Bowl.

In Drew Brees's 4th NFL season, he averaged 7.9 YPA and tossed 27 TDs against just 7 INTs.

Kevin Kolb has 572 career regular-season passing attempts in 5 NFL seasons. I'd love to see some parallel players who have worked out and become Top 12-type guys after showing so little in the start of their careers while getting so many chances.

(Apologies to DD for dropping into his thread)

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Who are these players? Not the ones who could successfully manage a game, but could lead a team to a championship.

Kurt Warner had 11 regular-season passing attempts before he set the world on fire with the Greatest Show on Turf.

Tom Brady had 3 regular-season passing attempts before he stepped in for Drew Bledsoe and lead the Patriots to the Super Bowl.

In Drew Brees's 4th NFL season, he averaged 7.9 YPA and tossed 27 TDs against just 7 INTs.

Kevin Kolb has 572 career regular-season passing attempts in 5 NFL seasons. I'd love to see some parallel players who have worked out and become Top 12-type guys after showing so little in the start of their careers while getting so many chances.

(Apologies to DD for dropping into his thread)

Wasn't Gannon viewed as a career backup?

 

[kerouac9]

Wasn't Gannon viewed as a career backup?

That was honestly before my time--I didn't dive into the NFL until the 1998 season. Gannon did have 724 career attempts through his first 5 NFL seasons. Started 12 games for the Vikings in 1992 before going to Washington for a year and then moving on to Kansas City for four seasons.

In 1998 he had 10 starts for KC and was then signed to start for Oakland, where he totally didn't start taking PEDs Four good years in Oakland then broke his neck and was never the same again.

Gannon was in the league 10 years before he became an above-average player for the Raiders. If you're saying that we only have to struggle with Kevin Kolb for four more years before he finds a system and situation he can succeed in, I'll pass.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

That was honestly before my time--I didn't dive into the NFL until the 1998 season. Gannon did have 724 career attempts through his first 5 NFL seasons. Started 12 games for the Vikings in 1992 before going to Washington for a year and then moving on to Kansas City for four seasons.

In 1998 he had 10 starts for KC and was then signed to start for Oakland, where he totally didn't start taking PEDs Four good years in Oakland then broke his neck and was never the same again.

Gannon was in the league 10 years before he became an above-average player for the Raiders. If you're saying that we only have to struggle with Kevin Kolb for four more years before he finds a system and situation he can succeed in, I'll pass.

I'm simply saying that Kolb's NFL success will be written in real time, and there is still reason for hope.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Is this thread about preferring Kolb to Skelton, or thinking that Kolb is going to be a good NFL QB? The former is kind of a coin flip. But if you're arguing the latter, is there any evidence that a sixth-year veteran is going to come in and suddenly become very good after being backup caliber his entire career up to this point (as well as a loser)?

How can you point to history in the NFL for one guy and ignore it for the other?

I think its far from a sure thing that Kolb will be a "good" QB (I guess by good I mean posting a QB rating for the season of at least 85.0). But, I'm more confident that Kolb will be a good QB than I am Skelton will be a good QB.

Again, if I'm wrong, which is certainly possible, and Skelton turns out to be the Cardinal's QB of the future, that'll be great. Anytime #19 lines up behind center for us, I'll be pulling for him to do well.

In terms of history, I would probably agree with you that it's also not on Kolb's side either. It's only my uninformed opinion that Kolb has a better chance to succeed than Skelton, and that the Cardinals should give Kolb at least half a season as the starter to prove that he can be the guy.

My opinion could be changed by the pre-season games. I mean, if Skelton clearly out performs Kolb during that time, I would probably change my position to say that Skelton should be given eight games to earn the job (to become "the" guy). I have to admit that I"m more interested in this year's preseason than I have been in a several years.

Does this sound reasonable? Hope it clarifies my position a little.

 

[CtCardinals78]

I like Kolb. He seems like a great guy and good teammate. I think he has the skills to do well, but I also have a feeling he's one or two more concussions away from being out if the NFL. I'm really pulling for him this year and would to see him do well.

 

[Krangodnzr]

We're screwed at QB. That's my stance and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Cardinals.Ken]

(Apologies to DD for dropping into his thread)

No chips and salsa for you!

 

[Stout]

We're screwed at QB. That's my stance and I'm sticking to it.

Sadly, you might be right. I sincerely hope not.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Sadly, you might be right. I sincerely hope not.

and I think that is something we all admit to whether we want to or not, regardless for what reasons we support Kolb or Skelton. To a large extent us Cardinals fans really are hoping against hope at the QB position lol

 

[cardncubfan]

I'll never get why fandom seems to break into so many camps. I'm a fan of anyone that can help the team. That makes me a fan of Kolb and Skelton. Either one of those guys lays an egg I'll be screaming for them to hit the bench, ASAP. Go Kolb! Please don't suck but if you do, get the hell out of the way.

Agreed.

 

[Russ Smith]

I'm firmly in the if Kolb can stay healthy he's our QB camp. I just hope he can.

For me it's a question of can Kolb stay healthy vs can our Wr's and TE's stay healthy if Skelton is playing. He just hangs guys out way too often with high throws or throws leading guys into big hits.

It is a tough call for Whiz, there's an element of do I assume Kolb is going to miss games anyways so I may as well start Skelton?

 

[TigToad]

I've given this a lot of thought.

I'm going to go with Kolb is our starter. He does much better than last year. And, barring a concussion will play the season.

I think the concussion thing is a big concern, but Rodgers had two last year (Or was it the year before), other top QBs have them. They either recover or they don't... it is a big concern, but it is also a somewhat random injury that may never happen again or may end a career. I've decided not to worry about something that uncontrolable.

On record. Kolb +1

 

[Darkside]

I'll never get why fandom seems to break into so many camps. I'm a fan of anyone that can help the team. That makes me a fan of Kolb and Skelton. Either one of those guys lays an egg I'll be screaming for them to hit the bench, ASAP. Go Kolb! Please don't suck but if you do, get the hell out of the way.

I think most people want our team to win, no matter who it is. But I'm not surprised about it breaking up into parts of people wanting one guy over another. It's human nature. My heart likes Skelton because he came from a small school and isn't supposed to do much, isn't supposed to know much. Stands tall in the pocket, has no fear. I'd like to see him succeed and make a small-school success story, simple as that.

With Kolb it's totally different. I'd like to think our FO made a solid choice and wise move. They chose a guy in the league for 6 years, someone who supposedly knows the game, and I personally think that's the type of moves we need to make to ensure Fitz see's some Lombardi. I want that to happen, and I really want this FO to succeed and prove that they know what they're doing. Tired of being a laughinstock, and I want them to make good moves. Like when they went after Manning, I was just proud to see them taken seriously for a change, and even though I'm bummed we didn't get him, I was glad we were players in the game for once.

With dudes like Max Hall, for instance, I think you have the religious crowd or even the crowd who just likes character guys. Guys who shouldn't even be playing or guys who people say shouldn't be playing, and you want that guy to succeed, because we all want to believe we too can overcome odds and we want to see someone else do it to prove our own heartfelt belief.

That's all it is. In my opinion anyway. But whoever wins the job and whoever plays well, I think we're all going to be behind that guy. Pretty sure everyone here loves the Cards or they wouldn't be spending their time posting. Everyone just has a favorite to fit their own psychological or emotional or intellectual need and desire and that's okay. We all come together in the end, rooting for our Cardinals.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I think we're screwed, but from the eyeball test I think Skelton will never put it together.

He just looks like a stupid QB to me. He doesn't seem to have the mental acuity to play QB.

 

[TJ]

He just looks like a stupid QB to me. He doesn't seem to have the mental acuity to play QB.

I don't see his mental game being his biggest deficiency. Skelton does seem comfortable in the pocket, is smart, and doesn't let his emotions get in the way.

The problem is that whether he steps in the pocket or not, he's wildly inaccurate. It is very hard to teach accuracy in the NFL, especially if the problem is throwing technique. We saw this with Derek Anderson, who could sit in the pocket, but couldn't throw the ball within a 15' radius of his target.

My feeling is that Skelton's NFL future is as a career backup. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Phrazbit]

I don't see his mental game being his biggest deficiency. Skelton does seem comfortable in the pocket, is smart, and doesn't let his emotions get in the way.

The problem is that whether he steps in the pocket or not, he's wildly inaccurate. It is very hard to teach accuracy in the NFL, especially if the problem is throwing technique. We saw this with Derek Anderson, who could sit in the pocket, but couldn't throw the ball within a 15' radius of his target.

My feeling is that Skelton's NFL future is as a career backup. Nothing more, nothing less.

Not saying Skelton will or wont get more accurate, but the idea that its almost impossible to improve a QBs accuracy is a flat out falsehood.

Just among current QBs these guys have improved by 5% or more from their first few seasons: Eli Manning, Michael Vick, Alex Smith, Matt Stafford, Drew Brees, Matt Hasselbeck.

I dont think its a stretch to imagine the raw dude from the small school could conceivably get more accurate.

And one more note, Skelton was reasonably accurate in college, Derek Anderson couldnt hit the broad side of a barn at any level. His college numbers are even worse than his pro ones. How Anderson ever got a starting job... or has stayed in the league this long, is a mystery.

And do you honestly think it would be harder to improve a 24 year old's footwork or a 28 year old's entire mental approach to the position?

Most of all, I agree with Krang. I dont see either of these guys becoming reliable players. But I think the younger guy with the physical tools is the better gamble.

 

[Stout]

I think we're screwed, but from the eyeball test I think Skelton will never put it together.

He just looks like a stupid QB to me. He doesn't seem to have the mental acuity to play QB.

Yeah, that doesn't make any sense. Knocks on accuracy, footwork and the like are huge and valid concerns; mental acuity are not. He picked up the offense enough to play well, as a rookie 5th rounder out of Fordham, coming into camp as the 4th-string QB. That speaks volumes about his ability to pick up an offense. Will he be able to master the mechanics of the position at the NFL level? I hope so. I think so, but that's just IMO.

 

[vinnymac]

His accuracy was not only bad, it was horrible Stout...there was times when Skelton was no different than Anderson or worse and yes, accuracy is not something you can GREATLY improve. I'm not talking about throwing to the right guy, I'm talking about knowing where your guy is and throwing it totally high or in the dirt. Give me more than one example where a QB drafted in the NFL vastly improved their accuracy...it just is not likely to happen. Huh? Ever type that with a straight face...

I am going with Eli Manning, Drew Brees, Micheal Vick, and Aaron Rogers.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Yeah, that doesn't make any sense. Knocks on accuracy, footwork and the like are huge and valid concerns; mental acuity are not. He picked up the offense enough to play well, as a rookie 5th rounder out of Fordham, coming into camp as the 4th-string QB. That speaks volumes about his ability to pick up an offense. Will he be able to master the mechanics of the position at the NFL level? I hope so. I think so, but that's just IMO.

Played well? Other than minutes in the 4th quarter, John Skelton hasn't played particularly well. In fact John Skelton was one of the worst starting QBs over the past few seasons by nearly every objective metric.

As far as mental acuity, what I see is that he struggles to go through his reads. It's one thing to know the offense, most QBs do. That's no feat; that is what IS expected of a 4th string player, know the offense. I don't know why Skelton gets praised for doing the bare minimum, yet Kolb gets crushed for not knowing an offense he didn't even have an offseason to learn.

John fails at the mental aspect on the field; he fails to go through progressions. There's a reason you keep hearing Whisenhunt and McNulty talking about seeing many open receivers, because there were. At yet this guy, who admittedly (by yourself and many others) knew the offense, couldn't find all these open receivers? I call that lacking in the mental aspects of playing QB.

 

[vinnymac]

Played well? Other than minutes in the 4th quarter, John Skelton hasn't played particularly well. In fact John Skelton was one of the worst starting QBs over the past few seasons by nearly every objective metric.

As far as mental acuity, what I see is that he struggles to go through his reads. It's one thing to know the offense, most QBs do. That's no feat; that is what IS expected of a 4th string player, know the offense. I don't know why Skelton gets praised for doing the bare minimum, yet Kolb gets crushed for not knowing an offense he didn't even have an offseason to learn.

John fails at the mental aspect on the field; he fails to go through progressions. There's a reason you keep hearing Whisenhunt and McNulty talking about seeing many open receivers, because there were. At yet this guy, who admittedly (by yourself and many others) knew the offense, couldn't find all these open receivers? I call that lacking in the mental aspects of playing QB.

Good point

 

[kerouac9]

Played well? Other than minutes in the 4th quarter, John Skelton hasn't played particularly well. In fact John Skelton was one of the worst starting QBs over the past few seasons by nearly every objective metric.

As far as mental acuity, what I see is that he struggles to go through his reads. It's one thing to know the offense, most QBs do. That's no feat; that is what IS expected of a 4th string player, know the offense. I don't know why Skelton gets praised for doing the bare minimum, yet Kolb gets crushed for not knowing an offense he didn't even have an offseason to learn.

John fails at the mental aspect on the field; he fails to go through progressions. There's a reason you keep hearing Whisenhunt and McNulty talking about seeing many open receivers, because there were. At yet this guy, who admittedly (by yourself and many others) knew the offense, couldn't find all these open receivers? I call that lacking in the mental aspects of playing QB.

Are you serious on this point, or just playing games?

I would guess that it's because one is a second year, fifth-round pick who's gotten the bare minimum of coaching in those two years and is making the veteran minimum. The other guy is playing in the second year of a $60 million contract that is paying him $20 million in the first two years and was promised to be significantly better than the jokers we'd had the season before.

The speed of the game I'm guessing is a lot higher in the NFL than it is in the Patriot League. I'm going to give Skelton the chance to have a legitimate offseason's worth of attention before I'm writing him off.

Maybe I'll let him get as many chances ask Kevin Kolb has been given without doing much to earn them.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I think we're screwed, but from the eyeball test I think Skelton will never put it together.

He just looks like a stupid QB to me. He doesn't seem to have the mental acuity to play QB.

I totally agree with this. He doesn't make more than 1 or 2 reads. And forces the ball. Can he learn this? I hope so but I'm not sure.

I have to say Kurt made me feel better about Kolb. I was starting to wonder what his strengths were and why we went after him in first place. Kurt knows the org amd its good they still have faith. And his STRENGTH is timing which wasnt on display last year. Really going from WCO to Wizball is night and day.

Guess well find out come TC. I'm in the Kolb camp in terms of whom I think well win, but whoever does win, I hope they take the job by the throat from Day 1.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Are you serious on this point, or just playing games?

I would guess that it's because one is a second year, fifth-round pick who's gotten the bare minimum of coaching in those two years and is making the veteran minimum. The other guy is playing in the second year of a $60 million contract that is paying him $20 million in the first two years and was promised to be significantly better than the jokers we'd had the season before.

The speed of the game I'm guessing is a lot higher in the NFL than it is in the Patriot League. I'm going to give Skelton the chance to have a legitimate offseason's worth of attention before I'm writing him off.

Maybe I'll let him get as many chances ask Kevin Kolb has been given without doing much to earn them.

I just don't see all the promise; John Skelton is Jake Plummer V 2.0. A highly flawed player (accuracy, smarts) with just enough promise to tease. One of his flaws can be fixed (smarts) with experience, but I think they're tied together. I don't Skelton will get markedly better, and this is the best we'll see. At least with Kolb, we know that weeks before the season was the first time he saw our playbook.

I'm on record saying that I think both will fail, but I think that 1.) Kolb will be less of a failure and will play better overall 2.) Skelton will not get much better.