One Word to Describe Josh McCown:

[clif]

Wow. The plethora of excuses for the poor performance of a single player is reminiscent of another fella... forget his name... used to wear #16 before that Navarre guy came in.

1. Inexperience
2. Poor O-line
2A. No running game

What's next? Poor coaching? No good recievers to throw to? Some of these are legitimate reasons, but only up to a point. The inexcusable fact of the matter is that Josh McCown has failed to find the endzone in three consecutive games. How long can the Cardinals afford to wait before they pull the plug?

way longer than 3 games

 

[kerouac9]

way longer than 3 games

What about 6? Going 1-5 is a pretty tough row to hoe when the player's looking worse in game 6 than he was in game 3. Much worse.

Just let me know how long you expect me to sit through this. Go ahead.

 

[DevonCardsFan]

I still see the pathetic output of our RB situation as the #1 issue, o-line #2... you see the same thing in Miami, except they are focussed on fixing the RB and O-line problem.
QUOTE]

I say Oline is #1 and RB #2 and beat up rusty young WR's #3. If the oline is blocking good I could even get yards, RB's can only get what there O-line gives them iniatilly. If the RB has no were to go he can't get any yards.

 

[Espo]

What does it matter. Dennis Green has a history of having a revolving door at QB. I wouldn't expect Josh to be around very long. The first change DG has to bring in one of his "guys" he will. We have seen it at different positions on this team already. Josh is just keeping the seat warm for someone else. DG , as the spin doctor he is, had to pump Josh because DG realized he was his only real opition at QB. DG is a great publicist and is a great speaker. He is a RA-RA guy that spun things to make Josh sound good. DG knows how to play the fans and media alike.

 

[green machine]

What does it matter. Dennis Green has a history of having a revolving door at QB. I would expect Josh to be around very long. The first change DG has to bring in one of his "guys" he will. We have seen it at different positions on this team already. Josh is just keeping the seat warm for someone else. DG , as the spin doctor he is, had to pump Josh because DG realized he was his only real opition at QB. DG is a great publicist and is a great speaker. He is a RA-RA guy that spun things to make Josh sound good. DG knows how to play the fans and media alike.

You say he'll bring in "his guys"....You think we're gonna get Daunte Culpepper?

 

[TRW]

I would say....UNAWARE....he seems to lack that "instinct" and quick mindedness the above average ones have. Not to say he can't overcome that to some extent but I think his mental processes appear to be a bit on the slow side. Just my observation.

Maybe INDECISIVE would be another good word to describe him so far.

PUMMELED would also be a good description.

 

[fball13]

I think Indecisive is close, but not spot on. He is very decisive in that he immediately "decides" the following:
1. No one is open
2. Regardless of pass rush, I need to start my happy feet
3. Due to number 2 above, I need to take my eyes off my receivers and start to panic

I know I'm going to get the "he completed a ton in a row" response, but let's face it ZERO points ain't getting it done, plus... consecutive 2 yard completions should have an asterisk by it.

Lastly, did anyone else notice when he almost took a knee for a safety at the end of the half. They had to run a sneak just to avoid the safety on the last play of the half... wasn't Jake his mentor???

 

[conraddobler]

I think Indecisive is close, but not spot on. He is very decisive in that he immediately "decides" the following:
1. No one is open
2. Regardless of pass rush, I need to start my happy feet
3. Due to number 2 above, I need to take my eyes off my receivers and start to panic

I know I'm going to get the "he completed a ton in a row" response, but let's face it ZERO points ain't getting it done, plus... consecutive 2 yard completions should have an asterisk by it.

Lastly, did anyone else notice when he almost took a knee for a safety at the end of the half. They had to run a sneak just to avoid the safety on the last play of the half... wasn't Jake his mentor???

I'm guessing you felt we should have drafted a QB?

 

[jerryp]

Indeed... for Week 3. Check out Week 2's column to see how much difference a week makes.

The take on Josh in Week 3:



You can track the progress over the season here. As of 9/21, Vick is ranked 20, McCown is ranked 34. According to this, McCown represents less value than such luminaries as Chris Simms, A.J. Feeley, Tommy Maddox, Tim Rattay, and Doug Flutie. Make 'em proud, Josh.

It should be noted that Vick does represent some value over replacement (3.9), while McCown--statistically speaking--presents a liability when presented with an average alternative (-6.9).

It's about time somebody start checking Football Outsiders out, I've thrown out that URL on many occasions. Our pass defense DVOA being dead last and worse than our other ratings was my main reason for wanting a defensive back first in the draft. The article entitled "The Misunderstood Rams" was my basis for saying the Rams D would not be as good as they were last year and the Rams offense would suffer accordingly. So far this year Rams D is last in VOA and all the talking heads now talk about the Rams turnover prone offense, something FO was predicting six months ago.

Now first off k9, remember none of 2004 ratings have been adjusted for opponent yet and at this point in the season there isn't enough data (enough plays run) to start making solid conclusions. Week five Aaron will adjust for opponent and you'll start seeing the team efficiency ratings fall more in-line with your "gut feeling" on how the teams rate. Speaking of team efficiency ratings, what do you think about VOA at this point saying the Cards have only a league average defense as opposed to the "good" defense most around here seem to think?

Also the general theme the VOA rankings seem to be showing now that we have three years of data to work with is that passing offense and passing defense are much more important than running offense/defense. There's some articles on there somewhere (they just redid the site and I can't find them) that basically showed there is no correlation between rushing yards and winning like conventional wisdom suggests. Given this, what do you think about us drafting a running back first next year?

One word for McCown - quagmire, it's being used a lot these days so why not ride the wave?

BTW k9, thanks for mentioning Football Outsiders and giving me a reason to post here again.

 

[40yearfan]

Indeed... for Week 3. Check out Week 2's column to see how much difference a week makes.

The take on Josh in Week 3:



You can track the progress over the season here. As of 9/21, Vick is ranked 20, McCown is ranked 34. According to this, McCown represents less value than such luminaries as Chris Simms, A.J. Feeley, Tommy Maddox, Tim Rattay, and Doug Flutie. Make 'em proud, Josh.

It should be noted that Vick does represent some value over replacement (3.9), while McCown--statistically speaking--presents a liability when presented with an average alternative (-6.9).

Gee, it's nice to know that this guy's system is the be all and end all of how to rate a QB. I'll betcha everyone in the US agrees with him and he is totally infallible.

Just because it's in print, it's correct?

 

[john h]

No!!! It is "Hungry!!!!!!!" This kid is going to prove all you so-called experts so damn wrong. This kid made some throws last week that even Brett Farve would have been happy with. Guy's get a clue he is still like a rookie out there learning the NFL game.

Bobcat

He really is no longer a rookie. That excuse want fly. 6 starts 4 preseason games and 3 years. He is what he is and what you see. Worst rated starting QB in the NFL the last time I looked. If you want to get excited about some of our guys look and their future look at Dockett,Fitz,Wilson and some others. They are doing their thing now and will help us in the comming years. The consensus on this board seems to be there are some serious questions about McCown. When you have that many people who watch every game thinking that it should be taken seriously. Most people on this board are more savy about NFL football than most and when you take them as a group the consensus borders on an expert opinion.

 

[john h]

Players with less experience than Josh McCown, but more 2004 wins, and QB rating:

Kyle Boller (2) - 67.1
Carson Palmer (1) - 60.9
Byron Leftwich (3) - 73.3
Rex Grossman (1) - 67.9
Ben Roethlisberger (2) - 77.4

All of these gentlemen have also completed at least one TD pass.

Like it or not, Josh McCown is a third-year player in a contract year. He's been training as the starter for six months. He's started six regular season NFL games. He's appeared in 15 of them. Lack of experience is no longer an excuse.

Did not know he was in his contract year?? That is really interesting.

 

[Russ Smith]

Lastly, did anyone else notice when he almost took a knee for a safety at the end of the half. They had to run a sneak just to avoid the safety on the last play of the half... wasn't Jake his mentor???

On radio they were so surprised by this that they said I really hope someone in the huddle reminds Josh not to step back and take a knee again. That "lack of faith" by announcers scares me given they hear inside stuff from players and coaches we don't hear. They were clearly quite concerned he'd accidentally take a safety.

 

[john h]

A pathetic o-line and an even more pathetic RB is the main reason for the poor performance of McCown....

I believe he has shown a strong arm with great running skills... he does miss some reads, but with no running game to support him and a mediocre O-Line (at best), teams are knocking the nuts of him.

I still see the pathetic output of our RB situation as the #1 issue, o-line #2... you see the same thing in Miami, except they are focussed on fixing the RB and O-line problem.
Until these 2 areas are fixed we will continue to see our QB and WR's getting malled, beaten and clobbered... when they're not running for their lives !

We have excellent WRs. Perhaps a young core that is better than 80% of the teams in the league. These WR's can make even a bad QB look excellent. But without the protection, support and game planning brought on by a successful running back... teams will smother our o-line with a pass rush designed to mall the QB while he runs for cover trying to find a receiver that is double teamed... we need a running back that can force a defense to (at the very least) pay some attention to the position.

Agree about pathetic RB situation. Why is it that when McCown went out in 4th quarter our backup seemed to have all the time in the world to throw? I think he completed 5 straight passes and had us inside the 10 until Williams fumbled the completed pass. Did the OL just suddenly get better? Did the new QB put himself into a situation by his savy not to get as much presssure?

 

[Russ Smith]

Gee, it's nice to know that this guy's system is the be all and end all of how to rate a QB. I'll betcha everyone in the US agrees with him and he is totally infallible.

Just because it's in print, it's correct?

No but at least he can actually quantify his method, most of us simply think we know what a good QB is and refuse to listen to what anybody else says if they don't agree with us.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Like it or not, Josh McCown is a third-year player in a contract year. He's been training as the starter for six months. He's started six regular season NFL games. He's appeared in 15 of them. Lack of experience is no longer an excuse.

First time in history(?) I agree with k9

 

[Chaz]

I have concerns about McCown but I do think they need to give him more time.

It just seems like he is not making decisions quickly enough and getting the ball out on time. King didn't have any more time than Josh but he was getting the ball out.
Of course then King didn't move the ball any better than McCown did.


I think the comment about hitting the safety valve too much was off base. He was throwing to the WR on many of those plays. I don't remember a lot of dumpoffs to the runningbacks. It was more like the shortened the passing game and with good reason as far as the ATL DBs we playing off.

I know you are impatient K9 but I think it will take a couple more games at least before they make a decision to bench him.

 

[Bobcat]

He really is no longer a rookie. That excuse want fly. 6 starts 4 preseason games and 3 years. He is what he is and what you see. Worst rated starting QB in the NFL the last time I looked. If you want to get excited about some of our guys look and their future look at Dockett,Fitz,Wilson and some others. They are doing their thing now and will help us in the comming years. The consensus on this board seems to be there are some serious questions about McCown. When you have that many people who watch every game thinking that it should be taken seriously. Most people on this board are more savy about NFL football than most and when you take them as a group the consensus borders on an expert opinion.

Stupid is as stupid does!!! Experts who the hell our you kidding. Most of the guy's on this board are just good Cardinal fans, not experts. "Consensus," is a very dangerous word. Watch how you use it it could come back some day to bite you in the Ass. IE. WMD.

Bobcat

 

[Snakester]

Denny Green put all his eggs into the McCown basket. He passed on Eli and Big Ben and has to sink or swim with McCown. If he was to pull McCown for King or Navarre now he would look like an idiot. This was his choice. He made his bed, now let him lay in it. We as fans can only hope that he made the right decision.

 

[pete]

Denny Green put all his eggs into the McCown basket. He passed on Eli and Big Ben and has to sink or swim with McCown. If he was to pull McCown for King or Navarre now he would look like an idiot. This was his choice. He made his bed, now let him lay in it. We as fans can only hope that he made the right decision.

I think Green was right when he said McCown was currently at a higher level than any of the rookies. Unfortunately, McCown hasn't done a whole lot to back him up on it.

Now for my one word description of McCown. Albino.

 

[Tangodnzr]

It never ceases to crack me up how K9 and some of his fantasy land compadres treat their manufactured game statistics as if they were some kind of actual and meaningful fact in the real world of football. Especially with all their "jargon" that only a madden type freak would normally comprehend.
"VOA", etc, = BFD in my book..... whomever PO is.

edited to add: Not to forget how the totally laughable "value" stats for game trading are bandied about here as if they too, were meaningful in any way except for use in their fantasy land games.

 

[kerouac9]

Speaking of team efficiency ratings, what do you think about VOA at this point saying the Cards have only a league average defense as opposed to the "good" defense most around here seem to think?

Also the general theme the VOA rankings seem to be showing now that we have three years of data to work with is that passing offense and passing defense are much more important than running offense/defense. There's some articles on there somewhere (they just redid the site and I can't find them) that basically showed there is no correlation between rushing yards and winning like conventional wisdom suggests. Given this, what do you think about us drafting a running back first next year?

First of all, 40year is being ignorant, willfully or not, if he thinks that FootballOutsiders doesn't have the single best statistical analysis of NFL stats in the country, if not the world. Tuesday Morning Quarterback has been pimping these guys for two years, and they're awesome. It may be the worst holistic resource comparing individual and team performance, but it's also better than all the other ones, including individual stats (ypc, TDs, etc.) which, as we all know, can be misleading. Personally, one of the most interesting stats from them looking back to last season was that Anquan Boldin only rated 15 in DPAR and a stunning 37 in DVOA.

Now, on the defensive question, I think that they might be right. The Cardinals have done a pretty good job at keeping opponents out of the end zone, but they're giving up massive swaths of yardage. 13th in the league in passing and 21st in the league in rushing doesn't make for a Top 5 defense, when you look at what a team like Jacksonville has accomplished.

Until last week, the Cards' D has done very little to provide the offense with short fields to work with, nor halted opponents' drives soon enough that the offense can maintain a rhythm. People seem to have forgotten in the euphoria of the defensive performance at the Georgia Dome how brutal the Cards were against St. Louis and ineffective they were against New England. Did the Cards force INTs against the Rams? Yeah. But Marc Bulger throws picks. That's what he does. Did the Cards keep it kind of close against the Pats? Yeah, but the Pats don't ever blow anyone out, either, and the Cards never really had momentum.

As for the question of the running backs, I'm not sure. Personally, I think that this is a cyclical thing. Was it two seasons ago that the teams with Top 10 runningbacks all failed to qualify for the playoffs? Right now, WRs have a size and speed advantage over 90% of the DBs. Of course passing teams are going to have more success than running teams. On the other hand, the running teams in the NFL (San Fran last year, Baltimore, Miami, New Orleans, etc.) just seem to have a hard time getting QBs into a rhythm, because they're constantly handing the ball off.

I do wonder if there is a corellation between rushing first downs and winning.

As to your question, I don't know if it's appropriate to draft a RB #1. I think that history suggests that first-round RBs are a bit of a crapshoot. Because of the spread offenses in the NCAA, they're not developing as many great prospects, and they just kind of get bunched into that late-first-to-early-third round area. Just look at the last couple drafts.

I think that the Cards should probably take the best among QB, TE, and CB in the first round of the 2005 draft. Then look for RB value in the second and/or third rounds. I think Denny knows exactly what he wants in a runningback, and won't just take the highest-rated player on his board (as Mac did when he took Thomas Jones, and then did nothing to figure out how he's best used--Mac would have been better off choosing Ron Dayne for the way that he used TJ). I think that you could see Green do what Parcells and the Cowboys did with Julius Jones, just shift around until you can take the guy you want, and pick up value.

 

[fball13]

I'm guessing you felt we should have drafted a QB?

Actually, I'm happy with the draft picks this year and think we picked a perfect QB for this system in Navarre. Denny's system is based on making quick (very quick) reads and distributing the ball. Due to Navarre's lack of mobility/speed, he's always been excellent at reading a defense. I think McCown is an incredible athlete with all the physical intangibles, but it concerns me that he hasn't learned how to read a defense and make quick/good decisions. I know that most people think Navarre would be sacked too much with this O-Line, but it would be tough to sack him when he'd already thrown the ball on a quick read...in fact that would get us 15 extra yards each play ...

 

[spanky1]

The thing that makes this thread so impossible to come to grips with is that there are three very unknown variables.......the first being, who will step up as the season moves along there by influencing the needs assessment process (all this BPA is bunk taken at face value), secondly, which draft eligible players will emerge at the head of the class by THE END of the season and finally, where we will we be drafting next year!

Positionally, I don't think Green would ever take a QB with a #1 pick in the future. We will need a CB even if Starks ends up the season without injury. He has got to be at his last contract stage.....unless someone is stupid enough to buy him a la Bobby Taylor/Troy Vincent. We will need a RB.

Will we need a DT? We'll have to wait to see what happens with Bryant? Will we need a TE? Does anyone really know what we have in Daimond or Edwards at this point?

Too many gray areas to make this call this early.