Only one starter below Kyler Murray in new QB rankings

[HoodieBets]

How do you rank a QB that hasn't played a down in the NFL yet?

The same way everyone here thinks they are going to win 8 or 9 games. I have to do rankings to do my power rankings for gambling purposes. Everything is an educated guess before the season starts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Just as valid as putting him in the HOF already.

Still looking for those pesky comments that have said he will be in the HoF. And don't try to point to people that have stated that they think he can be a HoF level player. Because that isn't even close to the same thing.

 

[Solar7]

To Kyler's credit, this isn't really about him, it's about the overall state of the team, which has been a primary concern of mine. No matter how you slice it, rookie QBs struggle, and so do rookie head coaches - especially ones coming from the college game. That doesn't mean there's not room to improve over the course of the season and start to source some optimism from that, but they're gonna take some bumps unless history doesn't repeat itself.

Still looking for those pesky comments that have said he will be in the HoF. And don't try to point to people that have stated that they think he can be a HoF level player. Because that isn't even close to the same thing.

You don't outright have to state something for it to be implied. Plenty of people have said things like he's better on paper than Russell Wilson, he's going to win us multiple Super Bowls, he's the best QB to come out in years, etc. I'm not going to go searching everyone's posts for quotes, but the implication of saying those things is that he's going to play at a Hall of Fame level.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

To Kyler's credit, this isn't really about him, it's about the overall state of the team, which has been a primary concern of mine. No matter how you slice it, rookie QBs struggle, and so do rookie head coaches - especially ones coming from the college game. That doesn't mean there's not room to improve over the course of the season and start to source some optimism from that, but they're gonna take some bumps unless history doesn't repeat itself.


You don't outright have to state something for it to be implied. Plenty of people have said things like he's better on paper than Russell Wilson, he's going to win us multiple Super Bowls, he's the best QB to come out in years, etc. I'm not going to go searching everyone's posts for quotes, but the implication of saying those things is that he's going to play at a Hall of Fame level.

I said he is better on paper than RW and that is absolutely a fair thing to say. Obviously he will have to go out and prove that to be true in actual games, but on paper as a prospect he is better. He is faster, has a stronger arm and put up all around better numbers in college than RW did. Saying KM is better on paper is not the same as saying that he is actually the better player as he still needs to prove it to be true on the field.

 

[Solar7]

I said he is better on paper than RW and that is absolutely a fair thing to say. Obviously he will have to go out and prove that to be true in actual games, but on paper as a prospect he is better. He is faster, has a stronger arm and put up all around better numbers in college than RW did. Saying KM is better on paper is not the same as saying that he is actually the better player as he still needs to prove it to be true on the field.

Given that he only played one year and Russ played 4, I don't see how it's a fair comparison at all.

In fact, I don't see how anything can be there "on paper" because Kyler never worked out for us to have any numbers on paper. But hey, you're saying he needs to show it on the field, so fine by me, I guess.

Most of the comments don't come with any caveat, just that he's the greatest thing ever and will transcend the game, and all historical evidence against him.

Edit: I guess I just can't get behind the "on paper" argument. On paper, coming out of college, you could argue that Matt Leinart was better than Tom Brady, but that's clearly not true. You can bend those stats however you want, so before I even slightly imply they might play on the same level, I'm parsing my words.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Given that he only played one year and Russ played 4, I don't see how it's a fair comparison at all.

In fact, I don't see how anything can be there "on paper" because Kyler never worked out for us to have any numbers on paper. But hey, you're saying he needs to show it on the field, so fine by me, I guess.

Most of the comments don't come with any caveat, just that he's the greatest thing ever and will transcend the game, and all historical evidence against him.

Edit: I guess I just can't get behind the "on paper" argument. On paper, coming out of college, you could argue that Matt Leinart was better than Tom Brady, but that's clearly not true. You can bend those stats however you want, so before I even slightly imply they might play on the same level, I'm parsing my words.

No most of them are talking about his potential and are not saying the he will be great for a fact. There is a big difference between people saying that he has the talent to be great and actually proclaming that he will in fact be a hall of famer.

As to work out numbers I just don't believe in their importance as much as you seem to. I can tell you that based on watching film on both guys that KM is without a doubt faster and more dangerous as a runner. I can also tell you based on that same film that KM has a stronger arm than RW (accuracy seems to be pretty even). As far as stats are concerned KM's all around numbers last year were quite a bit better than any one season in RW's college career. On paper I believe KM is the better prospect, but of course being the better prospect does not guarantee the better career.

 

[Krangodnzr]

No most of them are talking about his potential and are not saying the he will be great for a fact. There is a big difference between people saying that he has the talent to be great and actually proclaming that he will in fact be a hall of famer.

As to work out numbers I just don't believe in their importance as much as you seem to. I can tell you that based on watching film on both guys that KM is without a doubt faster and more dangerous as a runner. I can also tell you based on that same film that KM has a stronger arm than RW (accuracy seems to be pretty even). As far as stats are concerned KM's all around numbers last year were quite a bit better than any one season in RW's college career. On paper I believe KM is the better prospect, but of course being the better prospect does not guarantee the better career.

RW was quite ordinary at NC State. That's why they moved on to Mike Glennon, because they thought Glennon was going to be better than Wilson.

If you want to talk about Murrays talent at OU, go look at the roster of players that Wilson played with. A bunch of good offensive linemen. 3 or 4 great RBs. Super talented team.

 

[kerouac9]

RW was quite ordinary at NC State. That's why they moved on to Mike Glennon, because they thought Glennon was going to be better than Wilson.

If you want to talk about Murrays talent at OU, go look at the roster of players that Wilson played with. A bunch of good offensive linemen. 3 or 4 great RBs. Super talented team.

Dude, can’t you just love Murray for the next four months without tarnishing the facts about other guys. Murray had 4 lineman and a wideout drafted in this class, including a first round WR and 2nd round OL. Four-fifths of his OL were drafted by Saturday.

Let’s look closer at Russ’s Wisky team: https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/wisconsin/2011-roster.html

Murray had Montee Ball, Travis Fredrick as a sophomore, and Kevin Zeitler as a junior. Melvin Gordon has 20 carries as a true fresh. Nick Toon was his top receiver.

 

[Solar7]

Dude, can’t you just love Murray for the next four months without tarnishing the facts about other guys. Murray had 4 lineman and a wideout drafted in this class, including a first round WR and 2nd round OL. Four-fifths of his OL were drafted by Saturday.

Let’s look closer at Russ’s Wisky team: https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/wisconsin/2011-roster.html

Murray had Montee Ball, Travis Fredrick as a sophomore, and Kevin Zeitler as a junior. Melvin Gordon has 20 carries as a true fresh. Nick Toon was his top receiver.

Man am I happy you did the research so I didn't have to. I knew it wasn't that great, but I wasn't sure if it was my bias about those who became solid NFL players that was holding things back.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Dude, can’t you just love Murray for the next four months without tarnishing the facts about other guys. Murray had 4 lineman and a wideout drafted in this class, including a first round WR and 2nd round OL. Four-fifths of his OL were drafted by Saturday.

Let’s look closer at Russ’s Wisky team: https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/wisconsin/2011-roster.html

Murray had Montee Ball, Travis Fredrick as a sophomore, and Kevin Zeitler as a junior. Melvin Gordon has 20 carries as a true fresh. Nick Toon was his top receiver.

So a 3rd round RB (Ball), a great NFL center, great NFL guard, a good NFL RB (James White)....and all these guys are proven NFL players, which the OU players ARE NOT.

Look deeper in the depth chart, and that team had tons of talent....proven NFL talent.

For all we know, maybe every OU draftee this year is a bust, it happens all of the time.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Dude, can’t you just love Murray for the next four months without tarnishing the facts about other guys. Murray had 4 lineman and a wideout drafted in this class, including a first round WR and 2nd round OL. Four-fifths of his OL were drafted by Saturday.

Let’s look closer at Russ’s Wisky team: https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/wisconsin/2011-roster.html

Murray had Montee Ball, Travis Fredrick as a sophomore, and Kevin Zeitler as a junior. Melvin Gordon has 20 carries as a true fresh. Nick Toon was his top receiver.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Wisconsin_Badgers_football_team

Better roster here. You dont even mention Ricky Wagner, one of the best OL in the NFL!

Abbrederis stuck around the NFL for a few years too.

And Peter Konz a 2nd round pick at guard. You downplay Zeitler, but he was 1st team All Big 10 as a sophomore.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

On paper (looking at college stats only - aka "potential") we have several good QB's on this team:

12,429 yards and 95 TD's
9.966 yards and 105 TD's
7,314 yards and 43 TD's
5,406 yards and 63 TD's
3,903 yards and 36 TD's

Spoiler

That's:
Kliff Kingsbury
Brett Hundley
Charles Kanoff
Kyler Murray
Drew Anderson

 

[Solar7]

So a 3rd round RB (Ball), a great NFL center, great NFL guard, a good NFL RB (James White)....and all these guys are proven NFL players, which the OU players ARE NOT.

Look deeper in the depth chart, and that team had tons of talent....proven NFL talent.

For all we know, maybe every OU draftee this year is a bust, it happens all of the time.

Montee Ball was useless, James White is decent on the Pats in a system that exploits matchups but keeps him on the bench at other times, and he had one or two guys on the line at a time, not four out of five guys on their way to NFL careers all at the same time.

And again... Nick Toon. A 4th round pick, not a 1st round pick with elite speed. He threw to nobodies. Brown and Lamb are bonafide 1st round talents.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Montee Ball was useless, James White is decent on the Pats in a system that exploits matchups but keeps him on the bench at other times, and he had one or two guys on the line at a time, not four out of five guys on their way to NFL careers all at the same time.

And again... Nick Toon. A 4th round pick, not a 1st round pick with elite speed. He threw to nobodies. Brown and Lamb are bonafide 1st round talents.

Ball was very well thought of, certainly better thought of than Rodney Anderson, Murray's oft injured backfield partner.

And literally none of the OU guys have proven anything yet.

All of them could be busts.

Lamb is a first round talent??? MAYBE. This years "1st round talents" sometimes go undrafted next year.

 

[Stout]

I didn't have to do much work at all. "On paper better than RW." No, nobody's putting him in the hall yet--they're just making out that he's better than a probable HOFer

And that's not the only comment. I've read generational QB, best rookie QB ever coming, and many other statements that dwarfs "pie in the sky" hopes. Give me a fracking break! Be excited about our new QB, sure. Ohmygorshhe'slikethebestestever! is just plain DUMB.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I didn't have to do much work at all. "On paper better than RW." No, nobody's putting him in the hall yet--they're just making out that he's better than a probable HOFer

And that's not the only comment. I've read generational QB, best rookie QB ever coming, and many other statements that dwarfs "pie in the sky" hopes. Give me a fracking break! Be excited about our new QB, sure. Ohmygorshhe'slikethebestestever! is just plain DUMB.

On paper as prospects. How do you not grasp the difference? Nobody is saying that he is already a better QB than RW, but comparing them against each other as prospects Murray is better. Difference is that RW has proven to be a great player and Murray still needs to go out and prove it.

 

[Stout]

On paper as prospects. How do you not grasp the difference? Nobody is saying that he is already a better QB than RW, but comparing them against each other as prospects Murray is better. Difference is that RW has proven to be a great player and Murray still needs to go out and prove it.

Thank you for that. I CAN grasp the difference, but nobody is qualifying these statements. They're just saying better, not better in these specific, unquantifiable, and completely arguable ways. Most of those posts absolutely read as if he is already a better QB than RW, which is so freaking annoying. Your above post is the first one that elaborates on the comparison.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Thank you for that. I CAN grasp the difference, but nobody is qualifying these statements. They're just saying better, not better in these specific, unquantifiable, and completely arguable ways. Most of those posts absolutely read as if he is already a better QB than RW, which is so freaking annoying. Your above post is the first one that elaborates on the comparison.

Except I am the one that has been saying he is a better prospect and the word prospect should make that distinction by itself. In other words I think he is more physically talented than Wilson and if everything works out well he could be even better than Wilson. What we won't know until he plays is whether he will be able to process information as well as Wilson does. If he gets it mentally at least as well and can stay healthy like Wilson has than he will likely end up an even better player.

 

[Solar7]

Except I am the one that has been saying he is a better prospect and the word prospect should make that distinction by itself. In other words I think he is more physically talented than Wilson and if everything works out well he could be even better than Wilson. What we won't know until he plays is whether he will be able to process information as well as Wilson does. If he gets it mentally at least as well and can stay healthy like Wilson has than he will likely end up an even better player.

PA had a post just a few days ago opining that he's better than RW. You're not the only one talking about Kyler.

Ball was very well thought of, certainly better thought of than Rodney Anderson, Murray's oft injured backfield partner.

And literally none of the OU guys have proven anything yet.

All of them could be busts.

Lamb is a first round talent??? MAYBE. This years "1st round talents" sometimes go undrafted next year.

The fact of the matter is that Kyler had much more well regarded talent around him all at the same time than RW did. You don't have to be a good NFL player to have been great at the college level. But the guys coming down with Kyler's passes are objectively better than anything RW had.

 

[Krangodnzr]

The fact of the matter is that Kyler had much more well regarded talent around him all at the same time than RW did. You don't have to be a good NFL player to have been great at the college level. But the guys coming down with Kyler's passes are objectively better than anything RW had.

RW was on a really good college team.

Potential is the same as actual performance. Fact of the matter is that Wisconsin had multiple Pro Bowlers or near all pros playing alongside RW. They went 11-3.

Actual good NFL players from a team trumps "potential" anyday. Like I said, all of Murray's teammates might be terrible in the NFL and your argument will look silly.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

PA had a post just a few days ago opining that he's better than RW. You're not the only one talking about Kyler.


The fact of the matter is that Kyler had much more well regarded talent around him all at the same time than RW did. You don't have to be a good NFL player to have been great at the college level. But the guys coming down with Kyler's passes are objectively better than anything RW had.

I assume you are talking about the post where he said "Wilson is the closest comparison you can make to Murray, but Murray has a stronger arm, is faster, and more athletic". That is clearly in the context of talking about the two of them in comparison as prospects or their potential. That post did not suggest that Murray is already the better player nor did it guarantee that he would be. It simply states the physical things that Murray has over Wilson. Just because someone is excited about Kyler or optimistic doesn't mean they are guaranteeing his success.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I assume you are talking about the post where he said "Wilson is the closest comparison you can make to Murray, but Murray has a stronger arm, is faster, and more athletic". That is clearly in the context of talking about the two of them in comparison as prospects or their potential. That post did not suggest that Murray is already the better player nor did it guarantee that he would be. It simply states the physical things that Murray has over Wilson. Just because someone is excited about Kyler or optimistic doesn't mean they are guaranteeing his success.

He just gets all bent out of shape if anything nice is said about Murray or Murray's potential.

Murray is a much better prospect than Wilson coming out. Any scout would tell you that.

Here Solar...I'll make you feel better. Murray is slow, inaccurate, loafs at practice, and is a midget. Worst pick ever! The Cardinals will rule the day and will suffer through 1,000 losing years because of him.

 

[Solar7]

I'm not the only person calling you guys out for over the moon positivity. It's not like I made this thread of even commented until page 2.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I'm not the only person calling you guys out for over the moon positivity. It's not like I made this thread of even commented until page 2.

Murray is a great prospect that has the skill set that could achieve great things. Why wouldn't we be extremely positive about that?

 

[kerouac9]

RW was on a really good college team.

Potential is the same as actual performance. Fact of the matter is that Wisconsin had multiple Pro Bowlers or near all pros playing alongside RW. They went 11-3.

Actual good NFL players from a team trumps "potential" anyday. Like I said, all of Murray's teammates might be terrible in the NFL and your argument will look silly.

Or they could all be better than Murray, and everyone realizes that Murray was only 30% of that equation. Both possibilities are available.