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[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
Also, Voskuhl is asked to double-team away from the paint. He's the one who leaves, so he's the one whose man is open. I agree that's a defensive problem, but Voskuhl can hardly be expected to guard the other team's center "straight up" if the coaching staff has him helping out on someone fifteen feet from the basket.

I am unclear why Voskuhl is out on the perimeter so often. If those are all switches, then there is something funimentally wrong with the way the Suns do it because other teams seem to have no problem keeping their centers in the paint. As it is, I want to scream everytime Voskuhl gets hit with a reach-in foul on some player beyond the arc.

Right now, Voskuhl does a better job of fighting with centers than he does at stopping outside guys driving to the basket. That was why he got so many quick fouls against Memphis, the Grizzlies were attacking the basket every time they had the ball and Voskuhl never could move his feet fast enough to get in their way.

BTW, just because I cannot give statistics about Jake's defensive limitations does not mean I'm wrong.

 

[cly2tw]

If we sign Kobe, with Amare-Kobe core, any 2nd to 3rd tier center committee would do the job, and White and Jake are actually perfect for this team since White is among the best Shaq-defenders while Jake is good at dealing those skill-centers.

If we don't have our new core this offseason, it doesn't matter much which better centers we sign. We gotta get our new franchise players (besides Amare) first, before we start talking about the complementary players. Folks, get the priority straight! It's a whole TEAM you are building.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
Dampier is a guy whose numbers were not that impressive until he was almost 30.

You keep saying this, and I keep correcting it. Which one of us will blink first?

Dampier's numbers this season are almost identical to what he posted in '97-'98, his first year with the Warriors. The only differences are more rebounds (which are partly a function of who else is on the team) and improved FG% (which is partly a function of maturity, and indeed noteworthy, but hardly enough by itself to constitute a big difference in overall numbers).

The problem is that rebounding is always the primary thing I look at when checking out centers. Dampier's rebounding with GS has been:

97-98 8.7
98-99 7.6
99-00 6.4
00-01 5.8
01-02 5.3
02-03 6.6
03-04 11.9

This year Dampier is 3 rpg higher than any year in his career. The last two years have seen his shooting percentage rise substantially over previous years.

This season, Dampier's biggest improvement has been to reduce his fouls per minute played. I'm sure that is why he is playing 8 minutes a game more than any season since his first with GS.

Dampier's first year with GS with 8.7 rpg was "pretty good", but it was only .27 rebounds per minute played. This year, Dampier is grabbing .36 rebounds per minute.

BTW, White grabs .31 rebounds per minute played. White's problem is that he makes too many fouls per minute played just like Dampier only worse. If the Suns could get him to cut down on his fouls and keep him in the game, White could average 10 ppg and 10 rpg in 32 minutes.

I was struck by something the TV commentors said about the Kings, that they are willing to let opponents make layups rather than make fouls (the opposite of the Jerry Sloan approach). The Suns make too many fouls that come when someone has beaten the Suns defender and he fouls rather than let the guy get an easy basket. The Kings approach is, "if he beats me, he beats me but I won't send him to the line".

 

[Errntknght]

cly2tw, "If we sign Kobe, with Amare-Kobe core, any 2nd to 3rd tier center committee would do the job, and White and Jake are actually perfect for this team since White is among the best Shaq-defenders while Jake is good at dealing those skill-centers.

If we don't have our new core this offseason, it doesn't matter much which better centers we sign. We gotta get our new franchise players (besides Amare) first, before we start talking about the complementary players. Folks, get the priority straight! It's a whole TEAM you are building."

Right, it's a whole team we're trying to build and making a foundation of the fantasy of signing Kobe as a FA doesn't seem like the way to go about it to me. We have Amare now and shaping the team around him is important whatever else may happen. The ideal center is one who is a threat in the high post and Jake and White are not even close to acceptable, much less perfect. That also rules out Dampier, Foyle, Camby and probably Okur as well - though I haven't seen him play enough to tell. Vlade would be great for the short run but it's looking like the Kings are intent on re-signing him. IMO, it's better to sign a lesser center who fits the structure you want then a misfit - unless he's so dominant, you can downplay Amare's role. Frankly, I can't name a good candidate for the spot but then I don't know much about most of the young centers around the league - perhaps one of Mihm, Gadzuric, Chandler, or Heywood would fit well enough. Realistically, we probably have to go to a Euro-center. For the long run we have a reasonable candidate in Lampe but I'd pursue another one in the draft to cover the bases, as well as search among the FAs and otherwise 'available' players.

Between Jake and White, if I had to choose one to keep it would be White. He's a worse fit than Jake for a high post role but when Amare is out of the game, White could take his place in the low post and wear the defenders down.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Errntknght
cly2tw, "If we sign Kobe, with Amare-Kobe core, any 2nd to 3rd tier center committee would do the job, and White and Jake are actually perfect for this team since White is among the best Shaq-defenders while Jake is good at dealing those skill-centers.

If we don't have our new core this offseason, it doesn't matter much which better centers we sign. We gotta get our new franchise players (besides Amare) first, before we start talking about the complementary players. Folks, get the priority straight! It's a whole TEAM you are building."

Right, it's a whole team we're trying to build and making a foundation of the fantasy of signing Kobe as a FA doesn't seem like the way to go about it to me. We have Amare now and shaping the team around him is important whatever else may happen. The ideal center is one who is a threat in the high post and Jake and White are not even close to acceptable, much less perfect. That also rules out Dampier, Foyle, Camby and probably Okur as well - though I haven't seen him play enough to tell. Vlade would be great for the short run but it's looking like the Kings are intent on re-signing him. IMO, it's better to sign a lesser center who fits the structure you want then a misfit - unless he's so dominant, you can downplay Amare's role. Frankly, I can't name a good candidate for the spot but then I don't know much about most of the young centers around the league - perhaps one of Mihm, Gadzuric, Chandler, or Heywood would fit well enough. Realistically, we probably have to go to a Euro-center. For the long run we have a reasonable candidate in Lampe but I'd pursue another one in the draft to cover the bases, as well as search among the FAs and otherwise 'available' players.

Between Jake and White, if I had to choose one to keep it would be White. He's a worse fit than Jake for a high post role but when Amare is out of the game, White could take his place in the low post and wear the defenders down.

If by "high post center" you are talking about a guy that can draw opposing centers out of the middle of the floor with his shooting and passing from the high post I think you should probably go back and watch a few of those guys again. Most of the young centers you named to 90% of their damage around the hoop. I've watched them all play quite a bit, and I don't think any of them have done much to show me they are more skilled in the high post than Jake Voskuhl or Jahidi White.

Okur is probably one of the most skilled centers with legitimate centers size in the NBA. He is a very good shooter even from behind the arc. He can take his man off the dribble all the way to the basket or dish it to the open man. I would not be opposed to signing him to a reasonable contract of the Phoenix Suns feel I have no shot at a superstar like Kobe Bryant or Tracy McGrady. I just don't think they can get him for reasonable contract because Joe Dumars has said he will match any offer for him.

Besides, it seems to me that the Phoenix Suns need a true defensive presence at center more than the offense. Of course I realize that the Suns are trying to build a team that can outscore their opponents, but at some point they also should be able to stop someone.

Joe Mama

 

[elindholm]

The problem is that rebounding is always the primary thing I look at when checking out centers.

Then you will always be reaching very shaky conclusions. The primary thing you should look at is how they play.

Is Marion a worse rebounder now than he was two years ago? No, but he's getting fewer rebounds, because the people alongside him (particularly Stoudemire) are better rebounders than their counterparts two years ago.

Not every rebound is contested. Not every rebound comes from blocking out, positioning, quickness, size, desire, or what have you. If you watch games you'll see that many rebounds on the defensive end are what I call "concession rebounds" -- the other team makes really no attempt to go after the ball, either because no one is near it or because they're concentrating on getting back to defend.

Who gets the "concession rebounds" on a team can make a big difference in players' rebounding numbers. Early this year when Shaquille O'Neal and Malone were both healthy, O'Neal's rebounding numbers were way, way down. It wasn't because he was unmotivated and out of shape -- he has been that way fairly often, after all -- but because Malone was getting all of the concession rebounds. (Trust me, I watched the Lakers' games and it was very clear.)

Is Dampier a better rebounder now than in '97-'98? I don't know, because I didn't watch him six years ago. But as far as his improvement over last year goes, Murphy and Jamison both got a lot of rebounds last year (particularly Murphy), and now neither is playing. Some of Dampier's "improved" rebounding is surely attributable to that. Probably not all, but it's a very murky area.

 

[F-Dog]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
Besides, it seems to me that the Phoenix Suns need a true defensive presence at center more than the offense. Of course I realize that the Suns are trying to build a team that can outscore their opponents, but at some point they also should be able to stop someone.

Joe Mama

I'm not sure this is the case. Amare in particular should get much better on defense in the next couple of years, and both Barbosa and Joe Johnson have the makings of good defenders on the perimeter. If Marion is the team's worst defender, they're going to be a great defensive team.

If all the team needed from their center was defense, I would almost say that they're fine with the players they've got right now. I think what the team really needs is a starting center who's more well-rounded--someone who can be effective on both ends.

 

[Joe Mama]

First off I'm going to reject the notion that Jake Voskuhl is an adequate defensive presence at Center. He is not. In fact there are few starting centers in the NBA that don't abuse him in the low post and on the boards. On top of that he is a nonfactor when other players penetrate. Some of that does have to do with him double teaming on other players, but not enough to be a legitimate excuse. Tim Duncan was being generous. Besides I not sure how he would reallyknow since Little Jake has rarely played him straight up. Besides, Tim Duncan plays power forward.

I wrote earlier today that the Phoenix Suns really need help defensively at Center. Actually, an improvement on either end of the court would be welcomed. A lot of times a good offense can also really help on defense. It helps to keep the opposing team from running the ball down your throat, and you want to make your opponents actually have to work on defense.

Joe Mama

 

[SweetD]

Little Jake should be moved to PF ala a Malik Rose type of player. Someone who will box out and play with alot of energy for a very limmited time. He doesn't have the size to be an effective center.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by SweetD
Little Jake should be moved to PF ala a Malik Rose type of player. Someone who will box out and play with alot of energy for a very limmited time. He doesn't have the size to be an effective center.

Jake is better than most BACKUP centers, but he is not better than any centers on winning teams. You can love his hustle without being blind to his limitations.

I haven't really thought about Jake as a backup PF. It always seemed to me that Malik Rose is very strong and that makes up for his heigth limitations.

First off I'm going to reject the notion that Jake Voskuhl is an adequate defensive presence at Center. He is not. In fact there are few starting centers in the NBA that don't abuse him in the low post and on the boards. On top of that he is a nonfactor when other players penetrate. Some of that does have to do with him double teaming on other players, but not enough to be a legitimate excuse. Tim Duncan was being generous. Besides I not sure how he would reallyknow since Little Jake has rarely played him straight up. Besides, Tim Duncan plays power forward.

I wrote earlier today that the Phoenix Suns really need help defensively at Center. Actually, an improvement on either end of the court would be welcomed. A lot of times a good offense can also really help on defense. It helps to keep the opposing team from running the ball down your throat, and you want to make your opponents actually have to work on defense.

Joe Mama

Exactly.

 

[Errntknght]

Joe, "If by "high post center" you are talking about a guy that can draw opposing centers out of the middle of the floor with his shooting and passing from the high post I think you should probably go back and watch a few of those guys again. Most of the young centers you named to 90% of their damage around the hoop. I've watched them all play quite a bit, and I don't think any of them have done much to show me they are more skilled in the high post than Jake Voskuhl or Jahidi White."


Sorry I wasn't more clear about that - I didn't list young guys that I thought were high post players, I meant I hadn't seen them play enough to know whether they were or not so one of them might possibly be what we're looking for. Just like I didn't know how Okur played. If he's a high post type then I think we should seriously consider him.


"Besides, it seems to me that the Phoenix Suns need a true defensive presence at center more than the offense. Of course I realize that the Suns are trying to build a team that can outscore their opponents, but at some point they also should be able to stop someone."

I can't entirely disagree with that but the guy would have to be a Ben Wallace quality stopper/rebounder if he doesn't contribute at the offensive end. Camby at his best would have been good enough even though he's not a high post center... at least he has a decent mid-range jumper. Now, Id' vote against him because of his injury history, age, and the fact that he's not a fit.. too much risk for the potential benefit. And the length of his contract isn't important as I see it - we can't afford to waste a roster slot at this point in time.

 

[Joe Mama]

I actually think Okur would be a very nice fit, but unfortunately Danny Ainge's stupidity at the trading deadline will make it possible for Detroit to match most reasonable offers for him. I really do not want the Suns to overpay and squander their free-agent money for a guy that is relatively unproven.

Joe Mama