Ossenfort's crap drafting continued. The Athletic All Rookie Team

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Rob replaced Jamir Miller.

We replaced Dansby with Paris Lenon.

Yikes.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I really don’t understand fans failing to recognize that this is a core requirement of a GM’s job description.

I think most fans do but the Cards Can Do No Wring fans won’t admit it because it would take away their go to excuse to defend almost every GM the Cardinals have ever had when we’ve let very good to even great players walk out the door.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

or is it. A team full of top ten talent would be great but it never really happens....the idea here is to build a foundation of solid/good young players who are cost effective, then sprinkle in the top ten talent.

I think Monti is doing a good job so far and totally get what Brit is saying.

Top half isn’t top ten. I would say makes sense to divide starters into three categories:

Good = above average (this includes a spectacular sub category) = top 10
Average is likely middle 10 players
Bad = below average (this includes slightly below average to gawd awful) the last 12 players

 

[football karma]

Top half isn’t top ten. I would say makes sense to divide starters into three categories:

Good = above average (this includes a spectacular sub category) = top 10
Average is likely middle 10 players
Bad = below average (this includes slightly below average to gawd awful) the last 12 players

this is the way

i think in the NFL the three tiers are:

top 20% Among the best at their respective positions. Core players for their teams. Trey McBride
middle 60% They do their jobs, mostly. Froholdt is the example here.
bottom 20% Teams really trying to replace them next year / emergency depth / developmental rookie. Cards D Line

Obvs -- teams like the Titans have wayyyyyy too many bottom 20% guys on their roster.

I think Monti is using UFA to get solid middle 60% guys and then draft the top 20% guys. We havent seen the top 20% guys yet.

WE thought MHJ was an immediate top 20% guy, but instead was a middle 60%. Doesnt mean he cant move up next year.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Top half isn’t top ten. I would say makes sense to divide starters into three categories:

Good = above average (this includes a spectacular sub category) = top 10
Average is likely middle 10 players
Bad = below average (this includes slightly below average to gawd awful) the last 12 players

So you are saying guys like Mike Evans, Puka Nacua, Tyreek Hill, Jaylen Waddle, Cooper Kupp, Michael Pittman Jr, Deebo Samuel, etc are Below Average Starters because they weren't in the top 20 at their position?

 

[CardNots]

So you are saying guys like Mike Evans, Puka Nacua, Tyreek Hill, Jaylen Waddle, Cooper Kupp, Michael Pittman Jr, Deebo Samuel, etc are Below Average Starters because they weren't in the top 20 at their position?

I value most those listed because they make plays actually effecting the outcome of the game when it matters most.

I couldn’t care less as to their individual ranking against their peers by people with zero skin in the outcome of a game.

In other words I hope we obtain a few more playmakers on both sides of the ball regardless of a given ranking.

 

[kerouac9]

In other words I hope we obtain a few more playmakers on both sides of the ball regardless of a given ranking.

This feels like being needlessly obtuse or refusing to engage in the conversation. Obviously playmakers on both sides of the ball will find a way into these rankings. I'd love to hear about some playmakers you're thinking of that don't qualify here.

 

[Cheesebeef]

So you are saying guys like Mike Evans, Puka Nacua, Tyreek Hill, Jaylen Waddle, Cooper Kupp, Michael Pittman Jr, Deebo Samuel, etc are Below Average Starters because they weren't in the top 20 at their position?

Come on… this isn’t a real argument. There is a massive glut of very good to great WRs in the league. Not to mention a lot of those guys missed chunks time this year which is why their total yards/TDs were down this year and thus not in the top 20 for season stats.

 

[kerouac9]

Come on… this isn’t a real argument. There is a massive glut of very good to great WRs in the league. Not to mention a lot of those guys missed chunks time this year which is why their total yards/TDs were down this year and thus not in the top 20 for season stats.

Also, there are some positions like RB, TE, WR, and across the defense where there are multiple starters for every team, and some teams have 2+ above-average starters

 

[CardNots]

This feels like being needlessly obtuse or refusing to engage in the conversation. Obviously playmakers on both sides of the ball will find a way into these rankings. I'd love to hear about some playmakers you're thinking of that don't qualify here.

Uh, my bad.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Come on… this isn’t a real argument. There is a massive glut of very good to great WRs in the league. Not to mention a lot of those guys missed chunks time this year which is why their total yards/TDs were down this year and thus not in the top 20 for season stats.

Even if I sort it for Just #1 WRs and take out all of the #2 and #3 WRs (Higgins, Waddle, D Smith, etc) :

1. J Chase
2. J Jefferson
3. B Thomas
4. D London
5. A St Brown
6. J Jeudy
7. M Nabers
8. C Lamb
9. L McConkey
10. JSN
11. G Wilson
12. T McLaurin
13. C Sutton
14. AJ Brown
15. D Adams
16. Z Flowers
17. J Meyers
18. C Ridley
19. A Thielen
20. N Collins
21. M Evans
22. P Nacua
23. DJ Moore
24. T Hill
25. G Pickens
26. MHJr
27. J Reed
28. M Pittman
29. D Samuel
30. D Hopkins
31. D Douglas
32. A Cooper

This doesn't include injured players that missed most of the season like (B Aiyuk, R Rice, C Olave, S Diggs, C Godwin, Hollywood Brown, C Kirk)

 

[kerouac9]

Even if I sort it for Just #1 WRs and take out all of the #2 and #3 WRs (Higgins, Waddle, D Smith, etc) :

1. J Chase
2. J Jefferson
3. B Thomas
4. D London
5. A St Brown
6. J Jeudy
7. M Nabers
8. C Lamb
9. L McConkey
10. JSN
11. G Wilson
12. T McLaurin
13. C Sutton
14. AJ Brown
15. D Adams
16. Z Flowers
17. J Meyers
18. C Ridley
19. A Thielen
20. N Collins
21. M Evans
22. P Nacua
23. DJ Moore
24. T Hill
25. G Pickens
26. MHJr
27. J Reed
28. M Pittman
29. D Samuel
30. D Hopkins
31. D Douglas
32. A Cooper

This doesn't include injured players that missed most of the season like (B Aiyuk, R Rice, C Olave, S Diggs, C Godwin, Hollywood Brown, C Kirk)

The bolded names here who I would consider elite playmakers at the position today. From your list of injured players I'd probably only add Brand Aiyuk.

 

[MadCardDisease]

The bolded names here who I would consider elite playmakers at the position today. From your list of injured players I'd probably only add Brand Aiyuk.

Sure that is the easy part but I would have a slightly different list for my top 10. However what bottom 12 starter would you put in your "below average (this includes slightly below average to gawd awful)" Category?

 

[Shane]

The bolded names here who I would consider elite playmakers at the position today. From your list of injured players I'd probably only add Brand Aiyuk.

Not sure how you can keep St. Brown off that list? Yet you have Garret Wilson on it? Make that make sense? Also he tops Evans , Puca and Brown in pretty much every category measurable?

 

[MadCardDisease]

Not sure how you can keep St. Brown off that list? Yet you have Garret Wilson on it? Make that make sense? Also he tops Evans , Puca and Brown in pretty much every category measurable?

That was the one I was scratching my head about.

 

[DVontel]

The bolded names here who I would consider elite playmakers at the position today. From your list of injured players I'd probably only add Brand Aiyuk.

I don’t know how you don’t bold Thomas. He was more impressive than Nabers.

 

[kerouac9]

Not sure how you can keep St. Brown off that list? Yet you have Garret Wilson on it? Make that make sense? Also he tops Evans , Puca and Brown in pretty much every category measurable?

I bias X receivers on lists like this. If you can't play on the outside, it's going to be hard for you to get in here.

I don’t know how you don’t bold Thomas. He was more impressive than Nabers.

He'll be there if he can do it for another year. I thought Thomas stood out as more of the prototype when I watched Nabers tape last winter. He's probably next on.

 

[DVontel]

I bias X receivers on lists like this. If you can't play on the outside, it's going to be hard for you to get in here.



He'll be there if he can do it for another year. I thought Thomas stood out as more of the prototype when I watched Nabers tape last winter. He's probably next on.

?


Thomas fits that X prototype more than Nabers does(they both do). I still don’t know why Thomas needs to prove it another year for you, but not Nabers. He outperformed Nabers. If they switched draft spots, would you still say this?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

So you are saying guys like Mike Evans, Puka Nacua, Tyreek Hill, Jaylen Waddle, Cooper Kupp, Michael Pittman Jr, Deebo Samuel, etc are Below Average Starters because they weren't in the top 20 at their position?

It’s obviously part science and part art. I’d say this season Deebo was clearly below average, no?

Creating stratification just provides a starting place for conversation there’s obviously nuance and spectrum within the stratification.

But if you want to throw that out there to start an argument, I’m not biting. Find it somewhere else.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Also, there are some positions like RB, TE, WR, and across the defense where there are multiple starters for every team, and some teams have 2+ above-average starters

Agreed. That obviously needs be taken into account. So for reviver it’s like top 20, middle 20, and the rest in the tiers.

For offensive tackles I would differentiate right and left.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Even if I sort it for Just #1 WRs and take out all of the #2 and #3 WRs (Higgins, Waddle, D Smith, etc) :

1. J Chase
2. J Jefferson
3. B Thomas
4. D London
5. A St Brown
6. J Jeudy
7. M Nabers
8. C Lamb
9. L McConkey
10. JSN
11. G Wilson
12. T McLaurin
13. C Sutton
14. AJ Brown
15. D Adams
16. Z Flowers
17. J Meyers
18. C Ridley
19. A Thielen
20. N Collins
21. M Evans
22. P Nacua
23. DJ Moore
24. T Hill
25. G Pickens
26. MHJr
27. J Reed
28. M Pittman
29. D Samuel
30. D Hopkins
31. D Douglas
32. A Cooper

This doesn't include injured players that missed most of the season like (B Aiyuk, R Rice, C Olave, S Diggs, C Godwin, Hollywood Brown, C Kirk)

Depends on what argument you’re trying to make. If it’s just who was above average, average, or below average for the season, sure use that.

If you’re trying to determine their overall value, maybe do 3-4 year averages. And obviously hard lines are relatively stupid as a rule. If #9 outgained #10 by 20 yards there’s a sliver of difference between them. Look for the gaps.

 

[TheCardFan]

It’s obviously part science and part art. I’d say this season Deebo was clearly below average, no?

I think you could say that for Deebo every year he has been in the league except for 2021.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Sure that is the easy part but I would have a slightly different list for my top 10. However what bottom 12 starter would you put in your "below average (this includes slightly below average to gawd awful)" Category?

Remember that it’s all relative. If the average receiver today is a high performer they’re still “average” for that group. An average receiver today may be a great receiver compared to other vintages. But by today’s comps they’re still “average” - hence the whole concept of average in the first place. It’s a constantly moving target.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think you could say that for Deebo every year he has been in the league except for 2021.

Fair

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think you could say that for Deebo every year he has been in the league except for 2021.

Yeah… Deebo is a little overrated at this point.